Old 08-18-2019   #41
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Originally Posted by DC1030 View Post
my bottle of hc 110 has been made in France in 1988 (!) and is in use since then - no problems at all, and still half full...
That must be nasty looking stuff. My 2 year old bottle is half gelatinous, and so dark red that dilution E (1:48) is still a dark brownish liquid.
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Old 08-18-2019   #42
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I'm on pace to shoot up to 8 rolls of film this year. In past years I'd run out and buy a few liters of HC-110, but with this new pace of shooting, I think my unopened liter will last me several decades.
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Old 08-18-2019   #43
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I decant HC-110 into 4oz amber bottles as soon as I open a new bottle. Then mix from one 4oz until empty. My syrup changes color a little, looking more orange with age, but results are consistent every time. I use dil. H usually.
I feel like a dummy for not knowing this but, the last time I wanted to develop some photo paper, size 4X5, my last Ilford paper developer had died. In a quandary as what to do, I thought ‘hey, why not try try the HC-110’ so I mixed dil. B and it worked just fine. I developed 12 sheets of paper in a small tray with about 8oz of solution and it wasn’t slowing down noticeably on the last sheet.
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Old 08-18-2019   #44
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Originally Posted by zuiko85 View Post
I decant HC-110 into 4oz amber bottles as soon as I open a new bottle. Then mix from one 4oz until empty. My syrup changes color a little, looking more orange with age, but results are consistent every time. I use dil. H usually.
I feel like a dummy for not knowing this but, the last time I wanted to develop some photo paper, size 4X5, my last Ilford paper developer had died. In a quandary as what to do, I thought ‘hey, why not try try the HC-110’ so I mixed dil. B and it worked just fine. I developed 12 sheets of paper in a small tray with about 8oz of solution and it wasn’t slowing down noticeably on the last sheet.
How long does it take you to go through a liter?
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Old 08-18-2019   #45
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Originally Posted by Dan Daniel View Post
Dilution "B" is 1:32 and is a pretty standard dilution. So at 500 millilter per roll, that would be ~17ml per roll of developer stock. So 58 rolls plus or minus per liter at a typical dilution. Of course lots of variable in this number. For example, I use 425ml per roll and dilute 1:50, so 8.5ml stock HC-110 per roll so over 100 rolls per liter.
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Depends on the film and dilution. Using dilution E and Acros, I can process just shy of 100 rolls of film with 1 liter.
I could see how some customers would want that developer to last several years.
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Old 08-18-2019   #46
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Originally Posted by DC1030 View Post
my bottle of hc 110 has been made in France in 1988 (!) and is in use since then - no problems at all, and still half full...
Okay I know a lot of folks here nowadays don't shoot enough film but seriously, 30 years? Do you even make photographs?
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Old 08-18-2019   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
That must be nasty looking stuff. My 2 year old bottle is half gelatinous, and so dark red that dilution E (1:48) is still a dark brownish liquid.
that's odd... my bottle is 3y old, full at 80% and looks like new (color and density)
do you stock it in the fridge? I let it on the shelf (but no light hits it)
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Old 08-18-2019   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran View Post
Okay I know a lot of folks here nowadays don't shoot enough film but seriously, 30 years? Do you even make photographs?
for example I usually shot color.
hc110 is for some random bw I do sometimes...
with 10ml I develop 2 rolls... that's 200 rolls per liter... 1 roll each month.
it's more than 16 years.
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Old 08-18-2019   #49
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Originally Posted by luuca View Post
that's odd... my bottle is 3y old, full at 80% and looks like new (color and density)
do you stock it in the fridge? I let it on the shelf (but no light hits it)
Nope, I dont store my HC-110 in the fridge. It's in the basement, near all my tanks and reels. It is almost as dark and thick as blood now. Truly a vile liquid, I was scared to use it this weekend as I was worried that finally it would not work. But it did, just as a fresh bottle would have. HC-110 is bullet proof!
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Old 08-18-2019   #50
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How long does it take you to go through a liter?
Well, in the last 10 years I've used about 1.5L. But I've slowed down on regular B&W film and go on a binge now and then exposing 4~6 36X rolls over a week or two. Compared to my youth (I'm 70 now) it's hardly anything. In my early twenty's a hundred feet of Tri-X usually lasted 2 or three weeks. On one occasion I exposed 100 feet in one day at the
Formula V races at Elkhart Lake racetrack.

Shooting two half frame Pen F bodies.

I do use photo paper as a negative in 4X5, very easy to load and develop because it can be handled under safelight, requires very minimal equipment and you can expose develop and contact print all in the same day.

Oh well.
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Old 08-18-2019   #51
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Originally Posted by zuiko85 View Post
On one occasion I exposed 100 feet in one day at the Formula V races at Elkhart Lake racetrack.
I spent several summers of my youth at Elkhart Lake. One of my all time favorite photos was shot in turn 5 at Road America at an Indy Car race. I sure wish I had the negative to that shot! That was a looong time ago.
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Old 08-18-2019   #52
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Quote:
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Marty, does that in your opinion affect its shelf life?
Oxygen dissolves more and better in water than in the organic solvents that made up 'old' HC-110. This means that it is most likely that the new aqueous HC-110 will oxidise more quickly than the old organic solvent formulation. Kodak uses antioxidants to minimise oxidation but typically they have limits to their efficiency and for how long they protect against oxidation.

A couple of things to note: the HC-110 I have used has always had an expiry date. Kodak never claimed it lasted indefinitely. In my experience it was very long lived but I did need to periodically recalibrate it, but the bottle I still use expired in 1995.

Kodak's estimates for longevity of stock solutions may be nearer to the mark for the longevity of the new aqueous formulation.

I have the skills and access to the equipment to synthesize the organic compounds in the 'no-water' HC-110, but, I suspect, like Kodak has found, there is probably little profit in manufacturing small batches of no-water HC-110.

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Old 08-19-2019   #53
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Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
Oxygen dissolves more and better in water than in the organic solvents that made up 'old' HC-110. This means that it is most likely that the new aqueous HC-110 will oxidise more quickly than the old organic solvent formulation. Kodak uses antioxidants to minimise oxidation but typically they have limits to their efficiency and for how long they protect against oxidation.

A couple of things to note: the HC-110 I have used has always had an expiry date. Kodak never claimed it lasted indefinitely. In my experience it was very long lived but I did need to periodically recalibrate it, but the bottle I still use expired in 1995.

Kodak's estimates for longevity of stock solutions may be nearer to the mark for the longevity of the new aqueous formulation.

I have the skills and access to the equipment to synthesize the organic compounds in the 'no-water' HC-110, but, I suspect, like Kodak has found, there is probably little profit in manufacturing small batches of no-water HC-110.

Marty

Oxidation occurs very easily in a non aqueous environment. I can see HC-110 start oxidizing very shortly after the bottle has been opened the first time. What the absence of water does is prevent chemical reactions (such as acid base reactions), due to a lackof solvent. Without a solvent such as water, chemical reactions are either extremely slow or non existent.
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Old 08-19-2019   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Oxidation occurs very easily in a non aqueous environment. I can see HC-110 start oxidizing very shortly after the bottle has been opened the first time. What the absence of water does is prevent chemical reactions (such as acid base reactions), due to a lackof solvent. Without a solvent such as water, chemical reactions are either extremely slow or non existent.
The glycols and organic amines that are the liquid base of HC-110 are solvents. They are what the dimezone-s and KBr are dissolved in. The solvents are polar, like water, but the differences between them and water are that they are aprotic and have much lower capacity to dissolve oxygen. They therefore prevent both oxidative and acid-base reactions, but the failure of aqueous HC-110 analogues is usually due to oxidation of dimezone-s.

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Old 08-19-2019   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
The glycols and organic amines that are the liquid base of HC-110 are solvents. They are what the dimezone-s and KBr are dissolved in. The solvents are polar, like water, but the differences between them and water are that they are aprotic and have much lower capacity to dissolve oxygen. They therefore prevent both oxidative and acid-base reactions, but the failure of aqueous HC-110 analogues is usually due to oxidation of dimezone-s.

Marty

Glycols and water are not automatically interchangeable. They may both be solvents, but they do not have the same qualities.
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Old 08-26-2019   #56
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Does anyone have data or hands on experience with the new stuff? I'm having a hard time finding actual real world data from the film community.
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Old 08-26-2019   #57
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Originally Posted by yossarian123 View Post
Does anyone have data or hands on experience with the new stuff? I'm having a hard time finding actual real world data from the film community.
It hasn’t been out long enough for anyone to provide use based longevity information.

I just bought some of the old stuff. Given that I only use HC-110 for old film, it should last me long enough.

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Old 08-26-2019   #58
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I just bought some of the old stuff from b&h. Five minutes later the site is showing that it's discontinued. And it's not taking any additional orders. ��

Hoping my order didn't get canceled.

I'm not super worried about longevity since I burn through it pretty quickly. I mostly want to see how it compares during actual development against tri-x and double - X.
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Old 08-27-2019   #59
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Originally Posted by yossarian123 View Post
I just bought some of the old stuff from b&h. Five minutes later the site is showing that it's discontinued. And it's not taking any additional orders. ��

Hoping my order didn't get canceled.

I'm not super worried about longevity since I burn through it pretty quickly. I mostly want to see how it compares during actual development against tri-x and double - X.

It is still very shocking that Kodak has discontinued HC-110. Some things you think will be around forever. As soon as you think that, then it's gone.


The new formula is NOT HC-110, no matter what Kodak calls it. The chemical changes are so substantial that it is objectively significantly different.
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Old 08-27-2019   #60
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
It is still very shocking that Kodak has discontinued HC-110. Some things you think will be around forever. As soon as you think that, then it's gone.


The new formula is NOT HC-110, no matter what Kodak calls it. The chemical changes are so substantial that it is objectively significantly different.
I spent time today looking at the data sheets for old and new. It's odd that the formula is different but the processing time + dilution appears to be identical to the old version.
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Old 08-28-2019   #61
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I just got a 404 error, "file not found," when I clicked on the link for the new formula.

Ted, thanks for bringing this to our attention.
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Old 08-28-2019   #62
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On photrio.com:

Well I can confirm what you say above. I still have 2 dozen bottles of the old and recently tried the new. As I process color separations with it for use in the dye transfer and carbon printing processes any variations in the formula could require re-calibrating. Fortunately it doesn't seem to be the case. Any variations I can chase in the tray. However the syrup discolors in the bottle very quickly. I guess one can be thankful for small mercies.


Never ran a viscosity test on it. But it's obvious that it has a lower viscosity. Fortunately the separation negs came out with a density range of only 0.02 log units of opacity lower that I obtained with the old stuff.
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Old 08-28-2019   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
Oxygen dissolves more and better in water than in the organic solvents that made up 'old' HC-110. This means that it is most likely that the new aqueous HC-110 will oxidise more quickly than the old organic solvent formulation. Kodak uses antioxidants to minimise oxidation but typically they have limits to their efficiency and for how long they protect against oxidation.

A couple of things to note: the HC-110 I have used has always had an expiry date. Kodak never claimed it lasted indefinitely. In my experience it was very long lived but I did need to periodically recalibrate it, but the bottle I still use expired in 1995.

Kodak's estimates for longevity of stock solutions may be nearer to the mark for the longevity of the new aqueous formulation.

I have the skills and access to the equipment to synthesize the organic compounds in the 'no-water' HC-110, but, I suspect, like Kodak has found, there is probably little profit in manufacturing small batches of no-water HC-110.

Marty
I am seeing expiry dates on the German stuff of 1-2 years at purchase. This may be uber conservative.

I have not run a viscosity test on it, but I took my 1 liter bottle (still unopened) and turned it upside down. The main air pocket followed as I turned the bottle, but a secondary bubble, 4-6 mm dia, formed and took about 1 second to go from the bottom (now the neck of the bottle) to the top (normally the bottom). The time to travel the distance should be related to viscosity (I think the distance in the 1 L bottle is around 6-8"). I would be curious to hear about other formulations (like old classic stuff and the new water containing).
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Old 08-28-2019   #64
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I just got a 404 error, "file not found," when I clicked on the link for the new formula.

Ted, thanks for bringing this to our attention.
You are welcome. I wish I had better news.
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Old 08-31-2019   #65
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Well, I bought another liter of the old Kodak HC-110. I have two and a half liters of the stuff now and will be good for many, many years. Probably my final Kodak purchase ever, as HC-110 has been the only Kodak product I have bought in many years.
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Old 08-31-2019   #66
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Thanks for this post, again Ted. HC-110 is the only developer I prefer to use for my own work, in all formats. Now that I'm doing home processing of 16mm motion picture film at 100ft at a time, I'm going to need more since every run is 800ml. For still photo use, I prefer dilution H but with motion picture film in a rewind tank, the development time would be incredibly long, so dilution B it is. Last night I found three liters from a somewhat local seller and I decided to purchase what may be all the black and white developer I'll use for the rest of my life. Now I just need Kodak to keep producing EK5222, 7222 and 7266 and I'm good.
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Old 08-31-2019   #67
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I bought a bottle too.... My first ever. I normally use Rodinal for everything but had long considered HC-110 for those occasional long-exposed and long-expired rolls I sometimes get in old cameras or from the Ebay. I'll pop back in at my local shop today to see if they had another bottle to put on the shelf after I bought mine...
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Old 08-31-2019   #68
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I'm very sorry for those that rely on this developer and its ability to last forever. I switched to it during grad school when I wasn't shooting much at all and doing all-day development sessions every 6 months or so, and five years later, still half half a bottle.
I also didn't particularly favor it—it did the job as an all-purpose developer, but I didn't often take advantage of stand/semi-stand development, and didn't care much for the speed loss with TMY, my preferred fast film.

That said, I do see the virtues of it, and occasionally run HP5 or Tri-X through. Since getting back to developing frequently otherwise standardized on Delta 100/Xtol and TMY/DD-X for pushing.

I'm hoping whatever changes are in store for Xtol aren't too ponderous. It's by far my favorite and always available at my local shop.
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Old 09-04-2019   #69
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Here's a post from a Flickr user, stating that she's getting exactly the same results with new formula vs. old:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/654489...ol-ishootfilm/

I had been meaning to try HC-110 for some time. Like a few others, above, I bought one of the last bottles of original that B&H had.

Have developed one roll of Tri-X, so far. I used my standard agitation from D-76 1:1 (first 5 seconds, then 2 inversions every 30 seconds), knowing it was likely too much for HC-110. Came up short on shadow detail, so, will try agitation only once per minute.
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Old 09-10-2019   #70
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Apparently, there's "new" xtol, d76, and tmax too...

Let's see if there has been any significant changes
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Old 09-14-2019   #71
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I still have one full bottle of the previous German-made Kodak HC-110.
When that's gone I will switch to the LegacyPro clone from Freestyle.

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Old 09-14-2019   #72
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Quote:
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The new formula is NOT HC-110, no matter what Kodak calls it. The chemical changes are so substantial that it is objectively significantly different.
I feel exactly the same about TX when the changed it in 06 (think it was 06).

I gave Freestyles L110 a try some years ago and I’m guessing the new HC110 is pretty much the same thing. It the same color but much lower viscosity. Results were the same but the concentrate oxidized in a few weeks.

Here’s a suggestion, purchase a can of Bloxygen or Wine Preserver off of Amazon. Both are argon gas. Simply shoot a couple of seconds of the gas in the bottle and replace the cap. It replaces the air and argon is inert and will not oxidize the developer. Simple and cheap fix!

I used to use Ilford HC but haven’t purchased any in years but when I last used it it was exactly the same as HC110 other than color. HC is perfectly clear and has the same keeping properties as HC110 or at least did the last time I bought some. Viscosity is about the same and Development times and dilutions are the same.
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Old 09-14-2019   #73
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Having noted that I purchased some original HC-110 from B&H -- my first ever... I have a question. I've opened the bottle several times, since I did not at first have a smaller bottle to work from. Each time, there are a few spots of darker color at the surface of the syrup. I presume one is supposed to shake / mix it. I expect the same to happen now, with the smaller bottle; shake before use?
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Old 09-15-2019   #74
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My D76 has not changed at all. Use the formula in the photo books.

Life became really nice when I was given a digital scale.
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Old 09-15-2019   #75
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Quote:
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Having noted that I purchased some original HC-110 from B&H -- my first ever... I have a question. I've opened the bottle several times, since I did not at first have a smaller bottle to work from. Each time, there are a few spots of darker color at the surface of the syrup. I presume one is supposed to shake / mix it. I expect the same to happen now, with the smaller bottle; shake before use?
I would not shake it. You will introduce oxygen to much more of the syrup through all those air bubbles.
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Old 09-15-2019   #76
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Having noted that I purchased some original HC-110 from B&H -- my first ever... I have a question. I've opened the bottle several times, since I did not at first have a smaller bottle to work from. Each time, there are a few spots of darker color at the surface of the syrup. I presume one is supposed to shake / mix it. I expect the same to happen now, with the smaller bottle; shake before use?

I don't shake and I don't worry about the brown dots. This isn't something like Rodinal where crystals can form and there might be concern over specific chemicals coalescing out of the formula and causing changes.
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Old 09-16-2019   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwfloyd View Post
Having noted that I purchased some original HC-110 from B&H -- my first ever... I have a question. I've opened the bottle several times, since I did not at first have a smaller bottle to work from. Each time, there are a few spots of darker color at the surface of the syrup. I presume one is supposed to shake / mix it. I expect the same to happen now, with the smaller bottle; shake before use?

Your bottle will get uglier and uglier as time moves on. Chunks will appear in the fluid and the color will turn dark red. No worries! It does not matter. The developer will work just fine. Continue to use it just as you always have. That's the beauty of HC-110. The stuff is near bullet proof results wise, no matter how much the syrup changes. My bottle of HC-110 is so dark red that dilution E has a strong, very brown color to it. That's a mere 2% dilution! And it is dark brown. That is how discolored my HC-110 bottle is. And it still develops just fine.


It's a real shame that Kodak messed with this formula. A real shame.
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Old 09-16-2019   #78
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I would not shake it. You will introduce oxygen to much more of the syrup through all those air bubbles.

HC-110 does not oxidize. If it did, the bottles would be compressed over time due to the consumption of the oxygen inside the bottles. I have had many many HC-110 bottles radically change color over the span of years and none of them ever suffered bottle compression, nor the sound of a vacuum being released when the bottle is opened. All signs of oxidation missing.
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Old 09-16-2019   #79
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Here's a -positive-review of the new HC110... https://filmphotographyproject.com/c...-formula-2019/
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Old 09-16-2019   #80
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At least it pours easier...lol..
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