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Nikon Mirrorless Overdue about 3 years, the Nikon Mirrorless system finally arrived in 2018!

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Old 09-01-2018   #241
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Canon slipped from the 5D3 so like 2012. Will it take back the crown in the opening salvo of the great no mirror war between the two giants? Will no mirror be a nail in the coffin for Nikon?
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Old 09-02-2018   #242
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1430 grams and 95mm filter for the 28-70/2. 950 grams for the 50/1.2. The body has (likely) no IBIS. 0.71 magnification. No joystick for AF points, maybe the touchpad instead?

It's cooling down a little bit. More like a 6D III.
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Old 09-02-2018   #243
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1430 grams for the 28-70/2. 950 grams for the 50/1.2. The body has (likely) no IBIS. 0.71 magnification.

It's cooling down a little bit. More like a 6D III.
Surely that weight for the 50mm can't be right? The ef mount 50mm 1.2L is 580g, the fujinon 56mm f1.2 is 450g and that's has a metal casing.

If it is correct, well, no thanks
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Old 09-02-2018   #244
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Surely that weight for the 50mm can't be right? The ef mount 50mm 1.2L is 580g, the fujinon 56mm f1.2 is 450g and that's has a metal casing.

If it is correct, well, no thanks
Not confirmed yet, but not surprising if it's true since today's retrofocus 50/1.4 lenses easily weigh that much, if not even more - the Otus and the Leica SL Summilux both weigh over 1kg.

The Canon is rumored to have 15 elements in 9 groups, while the old 50/1.2L has 8 elements in 6 groups. The glass almost doubled!
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Old 09-02-2018   #245
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In addition I would also add that movement (camera or subject) reduces the effectiveness of focus peaking too.

Shawn
True.

With non-AF lenses, subject movement always makes the job harder. There are decades old strategies for using manual focus with moving subjects. These all rely, to some degree. on wide DOFs. There is some degree of compensation for the focus peaking's issues with motion.
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Old 09-02-2018   #246
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Din't youl people would like to discuss the Canon equivalent ?

https://www.canonrumors.co/category/...orless-camera/
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Old 09-02-2018   #247
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Din't youl people would like to discuss the Canon equivalent ?

https://www.canonrumors.co/category/...orless-camera/
I've gone through the whole data sheet: Looks like Nikon can be relaxed.....

Here is a report from a factory visit in Sendai about the current Nikon Z production:
https://www.imaging-resource.com/new...-z7-production

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Old 09-02-2018   #248
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Bill, regarding focus peaking stopped down - yes, it is not as obvious where the plane of focus is, but that seems to be the norm for peaking. My NEX7 is the same way, as is my Fuji X gear. My understanding is that it’s because the hard contrast edge between in focus and OOF is less apparent.

The Z almost explodes into focus with my 50/1.2, and the plane of focus was very apparent with my 35/2.8 PC. At 5.6, peaking for each was quite acceptable - and I was probably using default peaking settings, there are at least a few controls for it.
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Old 09-02-2018   #249
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The lens options for that canon blow the Nikon ones out of the water. 28-70mm f2L and a 50mm F1.2L that's probably 1/2 the size of the 58mm noct with AF...
Meh. Not interested for two reasons - I have a metric poopton of Nikkors, and... it’s Canon.
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Old 09-02-2018   #250
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Quote:
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Bill, regarding focus peaking stopped down - yes, it is not as obvious where the plane of focus is, but that seems to be the norm for peaking. My NEX7 is the same way, as is my Fuji X gear. My understanding is that it’s because the hard contrast edge between in focus and OOF is less apparent.

The Z almost explodes into focus with my 50/1.2, and the plane of focus was very apparent with my 35/2.8 PC. At 5.6, peaking for each was quite acceptable - and I was probably using default peaking settings, there are at least a few controls for it.
Wow, that speaks well of the quality of the EVF.

I'm hoping that Nikon will come out a FF at a price delta that the Nikkormat FTn was from the F2 Photomic some years back with the same EVF. While I love my F2 plain prism, my Nikkormats will be a part of me.

Thanks for the opinion, observations, and thoughts.

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Old 09-02-2018   #251
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All of these cameras will take excellent photos. It just comes down largely to personal taste. Which one are you most likely to pick up and use?
I am most keen on what Panasonic has planned for its announcement on Sept. 25th.
But I don't see how you go wrong with the new Nikon and Canon FF mirrorless cameras.
The current Sony offerings are terrific. I am trading a bunch of gear in now for the A7rIII.
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Old 09-02-2018   #252
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Eric, that’s one of the reasons I’ve really learned to love ML - it makes me want to shoot.

I started with a NEX7 when they first come out. It’s a wonderfully capable camera (even now), but Sony ergos and I just don’t get along. If it was 10% larger I would be a lot better off. But, the NEX showed me how good working with an EVF can be, visualization is much simplified.

When I bought my X-Pro2, it was with the intent of supplementing my Leica M-P 240, but it has actually ended up replacing it (I just need to get off my butt and sell the M-P.) But, to my surprise I find myself using the EVF as much as the OVF - even when I’m shooting with the OVF, I almost always quickly flick over to the EVF to check things out, especially when shooting monochrome.

*That’s* one of the biggest reasons I’m looking forward to the Z. I find the immediacy if a good EVF to be very useful and even inspiring.
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Last edited by Ken Ford : 09-19-2018 at 06:16. Reason: Typo
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Old 09-02-2018   #253
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Nice new Camera

Made despite the great resistence of Nikon egeniers who only two years ago stated that the best possible way to get a bright and clear viewfinder was the reflex pentaprism.

Sony´s developments made Nikon engeniers to accept their short minded view of future.

Ok, now they have accepted the reailty which is the first step.
And they came off with a great system, theoretically superior compared to Sony´s.

The problem is that Nokon engeniers seem too stuborn!

They accepted the advantage of a short distance from mount to sensor plane which Sony defined at 18mm. So they did it better shortening to 16mm! Great!

They accepted the advantages of a wide opening mount diameter, and they did a wider opening.

But they forgot that the main advantage of such a system is that it could be used as an universal mounting system, accepting pottentially all brands systems and cameras lens made along the full history of photography, of course through the use of adapters.

So what did the Stuborn engeniers from Nikon, they do not want to publish the technical specs of their mount, limiting the possibilities of their own system.

Again Nikon is trying to block the SUN with a finger. No way!
Soon or later several makers will perform reverse engeniering to the nikon Z mount to offer their adapters.... and we will have what we need as photographers.

But wait a minute!

Why would I buy a system from a maker that tries to limit my creativity?
How could be Nikon Company so blid to offer certain advantages to block them in the next step?
Why would I buy a System that has the HIGHEST POTENTIAL if the maker is decided to limit its potential?

Good by Nikon!
I will go with Sony

Ernesto

PS I was a total fan of nikon and was waiting the Mirrorless model since before sony released their E mount, but this is my limit!
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Old 09-02-2018   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ernesto View Post
Why would I buy a system from a maker that tries to limit my creativity?
How could be Nikon Company so blid to offer certain advantages to block them in the next step?
Why would I buy a System that has the HIGHEST POTENTIAL if the maker is decided to limit its potential?

Good by Nikon!
I will go with Sony.
Or you could just wait for the adapters to appear. You don't have to buy the Nikon the day it comes out.
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Old 09-02-2018   #255
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.......
So what did the Stuborn engeniers from Nikon, they do not want to publish the technical specs of their mount, limiting the possibilities of their own system.
My read is this was marketing speak. Drink the CoolAid and say what we tell you to. Good little engineer, happy we let you see the sun for a few days.....

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Originally Posted by ernesto View Post
.......

Why would I buy a system from a maker that tries to limit my creativity?
How could be Nikon Company so blid to offer certain advantages to block them in the next step?
They want you to by new Z glass or use your newer-old F glass. It's called profit, when every company needs to make.

There will be adapters out there soon. Sound like you can't wait so buy the Sony. When the 3rd parties catch up perhaps you'll sell the Sony and by Nikon.

I think you will see Sony slow down their release of new FF products in about four to five years. Canon and Nikon will get their act together and with Fuji will dominate the space. Sony will stay in, keep running their production lines while folks are buying. It's a cash-cow that they can milk for another six years with the products they have now.

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Old 09-02-2018   #256
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Sony will eventually walk away from photography, just like they abandoned other product lines. It’s in their corporate DNA, and is the main reason I’m not a Sony fan.
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Old 09-02-2018   #257
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Sony will eventually walk away from photography, just like they abandoned other product lines. It’s in their corporate DNA, and is the main reason I’m not a Sony fan.
I don't know if that's true. People keep saying that Sony isn't a camera company, they're an electronics company, etc. The fact is that Sony has been making cameras for DECADES. Mostly television cameras and camcorders, but those are basically digital cameras.
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Old 09-02-2018   #258
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I've gone through the whole data sheet: Looks like Nikon can be relaxed.....

Here is a report from a factory visit in Sendai about the current Nikon Z production:
https://www.imaging-resource.com/new...-z7-production

Cheers, Jan
You are right. I don't get Canon... no ibis, less mpix than Nikon etc.
Canon, what are you doing?
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Old 09-02-2018   #259
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You are right. I don't get Canon... no ibis, less mpix than Nikon etc.
Canon, what are you doing?
Canon's high pixel count camera will probably have 50MP like the 5Ds. This one is entry level, but comes with the sensor of the 5D4.

It's the price that will have the final say.
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Old 09-03-2018   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ford View Post
Sony will eventually walk away from photography, just like they abandoned other product lines. It’s in their corporate DNA, and is the main reason I’m not a Sony fan.
I don't know if that's true. People keep saying that Sony isn't a camera company, they're an electronics company, etc. The fact is that Sony has been making cameras for DECADES. Mostly television cameras and camcorders, but those are basically digital cameras.
I agree. I think Sony is deadly serious about its cameras, and is going nowhere. Some folk forget that Sony = Minolta, and bought Konica Minolta’s photography division with all its assets and expertise over a decade ago. Sony also owns 10% of Tamron.
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Old 09-03-2018   #261
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You are right. I don't get Canon... no ibis, less mpix than Nikon etc.
Canon, what are you doing?
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Originally Posted by Archlich View Post
Canon's high pixel count camera will probably have 50MP like the 5Ds. This one is entry level, but comes with the sensor of the 5D4.

It's the price that will have the final say.
So, Nikon's Z lens and Canon's R body INITIAL offerings are not be-all and end-all?! Shocker!

I think there are many (enough?) things to like in both systems. They need to stop people migrating from their DSLs to Sony's FF mirrorless cameras NOW, not when they've designed the perfect body and have 50 mirrorless lenses ready.
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Old 09-03-2018   #262
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So, Nikon's Z lens and Canon's R body INITIAL offerings are not be-all and end-all?! Shocker!

I think there are many (enough?) things to like in both systems. They need to stop people migrating from their DSLs to Sony's FF mirrorless cameras NOW, not when they've designed the perfect body and have 50 mirrorless lenses ready.
Be-all and end-all cameras like the D850 come at a price. Not all people want to shell out $3000+ for the do-it-all camera. Sub-$2000 cameras are essential in this case: if only Nikon released the Z6 first..

Anyway, I don't really see many people that would consider a $2000, 30MP camera to be insufficient resolution wise.
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Old 09-03-2018   #263
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Yeah, but ibis could be essential (to me at least)...
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Old 09-10-2018   #264
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Rumors are that preproduction Z6 bodies are starting to show up at some of the launch events, so I think I’m going to attend a second one Friday to check one out.
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Old 09-10-2018   #265
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Kodak OWNED the dslr market...until Nikon and Canon came out with their own cameras. Will Sony suffer the same fate re:FF mirrorless ?
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Old 09-10-2018   #266
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Kodak OWNED the dslr market...until Nikon and Canon came out with their own cameras. Will Sony suffer the same fate re:FF mirrorless ?
Probably not.

SONY is a primary provider for the sensor photo-diode arrays. So was Kodak at one time. The difference is SONY has a sustained history of advancing digital-imaging technology. By contrast, when Kodak was a primary provider for sensor photo-diode arrays, the digital-imaging business was a competitor for their film business. Kodak's leadership were veterans of the film business.
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Old 09-19-2018   #267
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The second demo I attended Friday did nothing to cool my interest in picking up a Z6. They only had Z7s, but it was still good to handle them again.

I’m looking forward to a quality M to Z adapter coming along before too long. I remember how RFF went nuts using M glass when the first Sony A7 bodies came along - I never jumped on that craze because I don’t care for the A series, but the Z works for me and will give me a platform for both my various Nikkors and M lenses.

Happy days.
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Old 09-19-2018   #268
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The second demo I attended Friday did nothing to cool my interest in picking up a Z6. They only had Z7s, but it was still good to handle them again.

I’m looking forward to a quality M to Z adapter coming along before too long. I remember how RFF went nuts using M glass when the first Sony A7 bodies came along - I never jumped on that craze because I don’t care for the A series, but the Z works for me and will give me a platform for both my various Nikkors and M lenses.

Happy days.
I recall reading that Nikon has not released the Z-mount to adapter developers. I guess they want to sell their own lenses. Not sure about the legal implications, but that surely won't stop vendors from releasing them.

After having owned a string of cameras with no AA filter, I'm sold on that approach, so the Z6 would be out for me. I'd like to see all OEMs follow Pentax's model of optional AA filtering.

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Old 09-19-2018   #269
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I recall reading that Nikon has not released the Z-mount to adapter developers. I guess they want to sell their own lenses. Not sure about the legal implications, but that surely won't stop vendors from releasing them.......
I think the cat is out of the bag as lots of CNC machines over in China and their enforcement of IP is, well, somewhat lax.

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Old 09-19-2018   #270
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Kodak OWNED the dslr market...until Nikon and Canon came out with their own cameras. Will Sony suffer the same fate re:FF mirrorless ?
Kodak didn't make the DSLRs on their own. Everything other than the sensors are supplied by Nikon and Canon. Once the later two "came out with their own (much better integrated) cameras" like you said, they have no use for Kodak and its sensor parts anymore. It was written in the book since the day Kodak opted to concentrate on the consumer products that could maximize their film sales and ditch any serious camera efforts altogether.

Unlike Kodak, Sony is not just a parts supplier. It makes its own bodies, lenses and system accessories, much like any other major players out there. It's a different story.
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Old 09-30-2018   #271
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I have had the chance to "test" it a little bit at the Photokina fair.
Result:
- ergonomics is better than other mirrorless cameras, especially better as the Sonys and Fujis
- EVF is quite good, but not as good as the OVFs of the Nikon professional DSLRs
- the lens adapter is optimized for the latest Nikon F lenses, from AF-S onwards; you have no AF with AF-D lenses.

Nice camera(s) if you really, really want a mirrorless. But if you are satiesfied with your D3(s), D4(s), D5, D750, D800, D810, D850 I think you don't get enough to justify to pay so much money again.
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Old 09-30-2018   #272
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I've used Sony, Fuji, Olympus mirroless cameras in the past a lot.
But unfortunately with all of them I've got headaches and eye strain when I've used them more intensively / for longer periods.
That was one of the reasons why I stopped using mirrorless and came back to SLRs.
I wondered whether it was just a personal problem of me. Therefore I've asked my eye doctor. He is a very passionate photographer for decades, too. And he explained to me that EVFs in general have disadvantages concerning the eyes. He explained it to me in an extremely detailed way but as I am "an analphabete in medcine" I don't understand all.
But he was very clear in his results and recommendations:
1. From a health point of view OVFs are much much better than EVFs.
2. EVF can indeed cause headaches and eye strain.
3. With intensive use there is the risk of getting short sigthed and getting macular degeneration.
4. For professionals and enthusiast amateurs which use their cameras a lot he recommends OVFs to avoid eye problems.
5. The eye degeneration problems by the short viewing distance of smartphones are meanwhile very well documented.
Some weeks ago this topic was featured in a very high quality (excellent reputation) science TV magazine here in my country.
They reported the same problems. There is also increasing hints that the high percentage of blue wavelength emitted by these displays in EVFs has negative effects on the eyes.
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Old 09-30-2018   #273
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I was pro photographer doing Fashion, Advertising and Weddings.,
All with long hours of concentration,examining the image on SLR's.
Major eye strain and headaches..
The M3, M2 and any M was a joy.
Hallelujah i was cured!
Using friends mirror images makes me sea sick..
I am sure those results written about are 100%.
Simplicity is always the answer..
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Old 09-30-2018   #274
gavinlg
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Wellington NZ
Posts: 5,013
Had the chance to have a play with the Z7 at my local dealer here for 15 or so minutes today.

First impressions - I didn't think I would like it, but I ended up liking it a lot.
The body feels dense and solid - like a Nikon should. The controls were well weighted and well positioned and the whole camera response was lightening quick. Didn't do that Sony thing where turning a setting dial takes a split second to register in the EVF - all changes were instant. Control layout really impressed me - I was able to use it immediately without much adjustment and it has a nice, simple layout.

AF was super quick, shutter was very quiet and subdued, the EVF is massive and very clear - better than the Fuji's in my opinion (and I shoot with fujis).
They only had the 24-70mm f4 S in the shop, and it was compact, well made if not a little plasticky, and seemed optically superb. Zoom and focus rings were smooth and well dampened - much better than nikkor kit lenses of the past.

Body was made in Japan, and felt like it.

Overall, very impressed and will be watching for the z6 when it becomes available.
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