scanner hunt...
Old 02-01-2019   #1
g812
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scanner hunt...

I have looked into developing my own negs (B&W), and it would seem that this is something I wouldn't mind playing with
But then there is the problem of, if I want to print one or more of the said negs...
I have had a small look, to see what is about, and... well, it's mildly baffling to say the least...
What I am looking for, is something that scans B&W negs, no fancy stuff, doesn't need that image preview lark either (I just want the cursed thing scanned for goodness sake), but good enough that I can, if I want to, print out say an A4 sized copy without any notable... bad things (sorry it's late, the jargon has evaporated), possibly even A3 once in a while if it's really good... or am i dreaming with that one?
any ways, nothing too flashy or expensive
Looky forward to seeing what you knowledgable lot come up with
Thanks
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Old 02-01-2019   #2
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if you're set on a scanner and want the most possible painless scan experience (apart from having to use a virtual machine or dedicated PC which runs XP), get a Pakon.

F135 will do - the output is equal across all models when using TLX Client.

scans the whole roll uncut and you edit after scanning. Super convenient and super fast.
Yes, they come at a price but that's justified.

(I've used flatbeds, nikon coolscans (also the 5000 with SA-30) and if you ever used a scanner which scans the whole roll uncut - you never want to go back to fiddle with any holders)

If you've already got a digital camera you might also want to take a look at scanning with your digital camera. Especially for B&W. For color there are plugins which give great results in converting the images.
All you need is a (2nd hand, manual) Macro Lens, Lighttable, Filmholder and a decent tripod (I recommend a reproduction stand)
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Old 02-01-2019   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by predicolous View Post
if you're set on a scanner and want the most possible painless scan experience (apart from having to use a virtual machine or dedicated PC which runs XP), get a Pakon.

F135 will do - the output is equal across all models when using TLX Client.

scans the whole roll uncut and you edit after scanning. Super convenient and super fast.
Yes, they come at a price but that's justified.

(I've used flatbeds, nikon coolscans (also the 5000 with SA-30) and if you ever used a scanner which scans the whole roll uncut - you never want to go back to fiddle with any holders)

If you've already got a digital camera you might also want to take a look at scanning with your digital camera. Especially for B&W. For color there are plugins which give great results in converting the images.
All you need is a (2nd hand, manual) Macro Lens, Lighttable, Filmholder and a decent tripod (I recommend a reproduction stand)
Do you need an older computer to run the software for these Paktons? I have a very new Mac and am interested in one of these but I'm not sure if they can run such old software.
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Old 02-01-2019   #4
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Most people run Pakons in WinXP inside virtual machines (free VirtualBox will do).

So, if your computer still has a USB port, it will run.
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Old 02-01-2019   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brbo View Post
Most people run Pakons in WinXP inside virtual machines (free VirtualBox will do).

So, if your computer still has a USB port, it will run.
Thanks for the follow up info.
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Epson V600
Old 02-01-2019   #6
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Epson V600

Quote:
Originally Posted by g812 View Post
I have looked into developing my own negs (B&W), and it would seem that this is something I wouldn't mind playing with
But then there is the problem of, if I want to print one or more of the said negs...
I have had a small look, to see what is about, and... well, it's mildly baffling to say the least...
What I am looking for, is something that scans B&W negs, no fancy stuff, doesn't need that image preview lark either (I just want the cursed thing scanned for goodness sake), but good enough that I can, if I want to, print out say an A4 sized copy without any notable... bad things (sorry it's late, the jargon has evaporated), possibly even A3 once in a while if it's really good... or am i dreaming with that one?
any ways, nothing too flashy or expensive
Looky forward to seeing what you knowledgable lot come up with
Thanks
I have an Epson V600 scanner. No issues with cleaning or dust control; one just needs to exercise normal handling and cleanliness procedures when handling negatives. Runs well on Windows 10. No issues with inserting 35mm strips in neg holders (6 frames per strip). Certainly less time consuming to scan than wet printing in a darkroom. Excellent scans from 35mm B&W and 6x6 & 6x9 B&W negatives as well as slides. Color negatives would require further processing to achieve optimal results IMHO. PM me and include your e-mail address and I will be happy to send you Epson scans so you can judge for yourself. Bottom line: buy the Epson V600
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Old 02-01-2019   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by predicolous View Post
if you're set on a scanner and want the most possible painless scan experience (apart from having to use a virtual machine or dedicated PC which runs XP), get a Pakon.

F135 will do - the output is equal across all models when using TLX Client.

scans the whole roll uncut and you edit after scanning. Super convenient and super fast.
Yes, they come at a price but that's justified.

(I've used flatbeds, nikon coolscans (also the 5000 with SA-30) and if you ever used a scanner which scans the whole roll uncut - you never want to go back to fiddle with any holders)

If you've already got a digital camera you might also want to take a look at scanning with your digital camera. Especially for B&W. For color there are plugins which give great results in converting the images.
All you need is a (2nd hand, manual) Macro Lens, Lighttable, Filmholder and a decent tripod (I recommend a reproduction stand)
I'll second this. If and when my Pakon breaks down and becomes unrepairable, I'll either ditch all my 35mm cameras, or just wet print everything.

I run my Pakon on an iMac using VMWare Fusion and Windows XP. I believe there are now freeware versions of XP available, as it's no longer sold or supported.

If you go the Pakon route, join the Pakon Facebook group. They have all the 'latest' software and loads of useful scripts. The members are great at getting people up and running and sorting out problems.
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Old 02-01-2019   #8
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Thanks for the info
seems that old school, uses... well!
old school
I'll take a look
Thanks again.
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Old 02-01-2019   #9
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*faints*
think I'll keep looking for something a little cheaper...
did someone mention something about an epson?
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Old 02-01-2019   #10
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Epson flatbed. Or used Plustek without i, because it doesn't work with bw.
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Old 02-01-2019   #11
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What format film? If 35mm only, BUY THIS- right now. Pay the $125. Don't think, just do it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Konica-Mino...53.m1438.l2649

Then get Vuescan to run it. Now have fun.
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Old 02-01-2019   #12
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The Epson V600 will do what you're asking just fine. It's fairly easy to use, the Epson software works well on modern OS, it will give good quality scans from 35mm that will print nicely up to 8"x12", and won't cost you much.
Yes a dedicated 35mm scanner will give you better/more resolution, but will cost more, will be slower, and will be more complicated in use.

I have a Nikon Coolscan V and an Epson V750, and for black and white film I honestly prefer the results I get from the Epson.
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nice
Old 02-01-2019   #13
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nice

Some of those used plusteks look like a good option (for now)
Certainly make it easier asking the purse (wife) and justifying my foray into this.
So now the next question...
Epson V550 or Plustek 7300 (without the i) ?
the plustek is £5 cheaper and will probably be able to get that past the wife, as she'll not understand the reason why we need another scanner.
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Old 02-01-2019   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g812 View Post
*faints*
think I'll keep looking for something a little cheaper...
did someone mention something about an epson?
o.k. - if you don't want to spend 900$ on a scanner it suggest to look into scanning with your camera.

It's very fast and e.g. Negative Lab Pro or Color Perfect help you with the conversion of C41 negatives. I highly recommend NLP for this use.

Compared to a flatbed, sharpness and speed will increase and by stiching you can generate large files for large prints.
the only thing you'd be missing out is D-ICE (which doesn't work on B&W anyway)

see the second part of my first post here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by predicolous View Post
you might also want to take a look at scanning with your digital camera. Especially for B&W. For color there are plugins which give great results in converting the images.
All you need is a (2nd hand, manual) Macro Lens, Lighttable, Filmholder and a decent tripod (I recommend a reproduction stand)

keep in mind, there are basically 4 kinds of "scanner" users
  • Flatbed will do & I get great results from them
  • You NEED to have a dedicated filmscanner
  • WHAT? dedicated filmscanner? Wacky colors and way to slow. you NEED a Lab-Scanner
and:
  • *** scanners? They're overpriced and outdated. My digital camera is so much better!

in the end you need to decide for yourself what you want to use, as everybody is reassuring himself that his current state is the best.
Each solution has its' advantages and drawbacks.

I went through every iteration and finally arrived at owning 2 lab scanners.

We'll see if I stay here or if there will be a drumscanner next. you never know
( I really hope I'm on the final stage of this now )
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Old 02-01-2019   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g812 View Post
Some of those used plusteks look like a good option (for now)
Certainly make it easier asking the purse (wife) and justifying my foray into this.
So now the next question...
Epson V550 or Plustek 7300 (without the i) ?
the plustek is £5 cheaper and will probably be able to get that past the wife, as she'll not understand the reason why we need another scanner.
:'D

if you only shoot 35mm then take the plustek! sharpness is way better than on the flatbed.

If you ever find yourself unhappy with the colors - Negative Lab Pro will support the inversion of RAW scans in the next release.
What I've seen until now is far ahead of every inversion done by scanner software (including Vuescan).

but again: think about using the camera. Especially if you already own a Macro lens. if not, buy a second hand manual focus one. Completely sufficient.
so much faster and outstand results when using NLP - really! and you're set for all formats

Cost of macro lens: 100$
Cost of good light source (CRI >95%): 100$
Filmholder: 30$
Negative Lab Pro: 99$ (only recommended when doing C41 inversions, although I like it for B&W as well)

1 more thing:
don't believe the resolution Epson or Plustek state. complete nonsense.
from the Epson V550 / V600 you'll get around 1700 dpi, from the V700 around 2300 dpi.
from the Plustek 7300 you can expect something around 3000 dpi
Source
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Old 02-01-2019   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by predicolous View Post
o.k. - if you don't want to spend 900$ on a scanner it suggest to look into scanning with your camera....

Compared to a flatbed, sharpness and speed will increase and by stitching you can generate large files for large prints....
Why do you need to stitch for large prints? I'm printing 20x30 and can go much larger with just a single capture (using a digicam w 47mp sensor)
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Old 02-01-2019   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Why do you need to stitch for large prints? I'm printing 20x30 and can go much larger with just a single capture (using a digicam w 47mp sensor)
Because not everybody has a 47 MP camera, Huss

I guess most digital Crop and FF cameras range around 24 MP?
[Which is still pretty decent for (my kind of) „normal“ sized prints]
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Old 02-01-2019   #18
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Regarding Epson flatbed scanners...


I have the V550 (IIRC, same as the V600, but without extra software packages). I have cursed this scanner many times!


The problem is the negative carriers... IF you have problems with non-flat negatives. I've had that issue a lot with 35mm Tri-X, and, somewhat less with T-Max 100. My recent HP5+ 120 negs were pretty flat, and gave me no trouble.


The included 35mm holder takes 2 strips of 6. Distance from the glass is not much. You're supposed to insert the negs with emulsion up. That puts the lenghtwise warp facing downward. Often the center 2 frames of each strip touch the glass, and cause Newton rings in the scans. So, you try scanning with the emulsion down. Now, the hump sticks up, and seems to be outside the sweet spot for focus.


Air temp and moisture are contributing factors. I do better if I develop just before bed, when the heating or AC will be off for several hours, as the negatives dry. Still, I rarely had 35mm negs with no trouble.


I've tried several other-brand carriers that I could buy from B&H. With frame dividers, they would hold the negs nice and flat, but, were too high from the glass. I didn't dive right in and buy ANR glass, as I figured it would be more trouble to keep clean, and focus distance might be off.



But, finally, I bought a 6-strip carrier from an older Epson scanner (from Ebay seller, $20). Use with emulsion down, and the carrier has ANR glass on top, which flattens the negative. It's the right height, and makes nice scans. I just had to determine the best location under the backlight. And, I can only do 6 frames at a time, rather than 12.
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Old 02-05-2019   #19
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I would recommend an Epson flatbed (550,600,700) OR if you would like better quality Plustek Opticfilm 135. In my opinion the Plustek 7000 or 8000 are not very good options because you would have to manually position every frame and that's not fun, at least with lots of films.
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Old 02-05-2019   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwfloyd View Post
. I've had that issue a lot with 35mm Tri-X, and, somewhat less with T-Max 100. My recent HP5+ 120 negs were pretty flat, and gave me no trouble.
I totally agree with this. Tri-X is THE worst film when it comes to flatness. Scanning this film is unbearably painful and as a result, like you I long ago switched to HP5+.
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Old 02-05-2019   #21
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Originally Posted by predicolous View Post
Because not everybody has a 47 MP camera, Huss

I guess most digital Crop and FF cameras range around 24 MP?
[Which is still pretty decent for (my kind of) „normal“ sized prints]
You can do that w a 24mp D750
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Old 02-05-2019   #22
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What to do with negatives? The question is about B&W in this case. I'm assuming 35mm.
- Nikon CoolScan or equivalent, $1000+, slow, 24MPx output, 8x10 with ease.
- Pakon F135 or F135 Plus, $1000+, fast, 6MPx output, enough for 8x10.
- Flatbed (e.g. Epson V600), 1300-1800ppi measured resolution, 3-5MPx, good for prints up to 6x linear dimension of the negative. So 8x10 is about the limit. Nice for medium format.
- Camera scan, buy a nice macro lens, rig a setup, invert in Photoshop and adjust, or import into Lightroom and use the excellent Negative Lab Pro. I think this approach can now match the quality from a CoolScan from 35mm.
- iPhone scan for fun, just shoot the negative with your phone, crop and invert image somehow, it's a big crop so you'll only get 1.5MPx.
- iPhone scan for serious work, get a macro lens (Moment Macro or Exolens Zeiss Macro), use a 12MPx phone-camera, LED light panel, shoot with Lightroom CC to put a 16bit DNG on your laptop, invert in Negative Lab Pro, adjust to taste. ~10MPx from 35mm image, should make a good 12x18" print.

Starting today in 35mm with minimum investment: I would buy the Exolens Zeiss on eBay for less than $100, and use Lightroom. Seriously.
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Old 02-05-2019   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by predicolous View Post
1 more thing:
don't believe the resolution Epson or Plustek state. complete nonsense.
from the Epson V550 / V600 you'll get around 1700 dpi, from the V700 around 2300 dpi.
I've measured the resolution of my Epson V500 at 1300 ppi in one direction and 1800 ppi in the other.

I get good prints at 6x the linear dimension of the negative.
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Old 02-05-2019   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Do you need an older computer to run the software for these Paktons? I have a very new Mac and am interested in one of these but I'm not sure if they can run such old software.
Pakon is excellent for color negatives. While many report success with virtual machines on modern Macs, I've had better luck with an old Windows XP computer.

If you go this route, find and join the excellent Pakon group on Facebook.
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Old 02-05-2019   #25
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I love my Plustek 8100. It's the same scanner as the 8200i, just without the infrared cleaning (which doesn't work on BW). Vuescan is fantastic, and there's a scanner profile for it for Negative Lab Pro and it'll give you spectacular color results. I've never printed images, but it does give you a pretty solid 20mp scan
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Old 02-05-2019   #26
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Quote:
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I totally agree with this. Tri-X is THE worst film when it comes to flatness. Scanning this film is unbearably painful and as a result, like you I long ago switched to HP5+.
After developing, I leave Tri-X for 24h in my drying closet with a heavy weight at the end, the negatives are absolutely flat when done and easy to scan.

Juergen
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Old 02-06-2019   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
Pakon is excellent for color negatives. While many report success with virtual machines on modern Macs, I've had better luck with an old Windows XP computer.

If you go this route, find and join the excellent Pakon group on Facebook.
I dont do facebook and never will.
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Old 02-06-2019   #28
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I love my Plustek 8100.... and there's a scanner profile for it for Negative Lab Pro and it'll give you spectacular color results.
Is this true? I tried it a month or two ago and there wasn't any profile for the Plustek 8100...
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Old 02-06-2019   #29
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Is this true? I tried it a month or two ago and there wasn't any profile for the Plustek 8100...
...then you should have send the Author some RAW scans and he would have created the profile

but: currently scanner support is still beta. The upcoming release (v1.3) will support scanners though (officially). According to the Author it will be released somewhere in February/March - whenever it's ready but he's working on it )

and yes: superior results also with my V700 and Coolscan

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I dont do facebook and never will.
if you have a Pakon you will - just create an account without your real name. They collect your data anyway.
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Old 02-06-2019   #30
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After developing, I leave Tri-X for 24h in my drying closet with a heavy weight at the end, the negatives are absolutely flat when done and easy to scan.

Juergen

OK, long hang time would be worth a try. I'll have to work on my patience.
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Old 02-06-2019   #31
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+ Epson. I use V550 and scans,for my humble needs, are damn good.

Got mine for $70 + $20 s/h. Barely used, mostly like new. I use it on my 120 negatives.

For my 35mm, use Plustek.

Marcelo
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Old 02-06-2019   #32
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After developing, I leave Tri-X for 24h in my drying closet with a heavy weight at the end, the negatives are absolutely flat when done and easy to scan.

Juergen
Mine still curves a little after drying, but I squish it in a thick book overnight and it's fine after that.

Personally, the worst for curling in my experience is Fujifilm.
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Old 02-06-2019   #33
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Is this true? I tried it a month or two ago and there wasn't any profile for the Plustek 8100...
Nate is still working on the different scanner profiles, but here's all of the ones currently available: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...TPv3sJPc#gid=0
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Old 02-06-2019   #34
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Nate is still working on the different scanner profiles, but here's all of the ones currently available: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...TPv3sJPc#gid=0
a few hours ago he uploaded a video to the "Negative Lab Pro Users" Group on Facebook where he shows the v1.3 update - I don't think it will take too long until it's released
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Old 02-08-2019   #35
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....
- iPhone scan for fun, just shoot the negative with your phone, crop and invert image somehow, it's a big crop so you'll only get 1.5MPx.
- iPhone scan for serious work, get a macro lens (Moment Macro or Exolens Zeiss Macro), use a 12MPx phone-camera, LED light panel, shoot with Lightroom CC to put a 16bit DNG on your laptop, invert in Negative Lab Pro, adjust to taste. ~10MPx from 35mm image, should make a good 12x18" print..
I have used the Filmlab app w my iphone 8 and it’s super easy to use and great for previews and maybe printing (never tried as I use negativelabpro for serious work). I barely need to crop using Filmlab app as my phone gets close enough to fill the screen w one image.
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Old 02-08-2019   #36
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Join Date: Feb 2013
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I wouldn’t shoot 35mm without a Pakon, just way too many images to deal with IMO. The Pakon allows you to deal with many images effectively. Colors can be a little over the top, blacks need some work but way better than spending hours on just scanning. My V800 gets little use, it’s currently up for sale. Epson couldn’t have designed a crappier film holder. Second IMO would be a dedicated 35mm Plustek which I’ve used or on of the Minolta or Nikons. I just hate dealing with flatbeds for anything. I would rather batch scan on my Howtek than do anything in my V800.


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