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Old 06-25-2016   #401
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oh, my, when will the whining by the losers end!
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Old 06-25-2016   #402
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oh, my, when will the whining by the losers end!
Maybe in two or three years, Paul. It is viewed by millions as a disaster for England. I would not call it whining. Complaining. Expressing shock. Sadness.
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Old 06-25-2016   #403
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nah, Raid, whining. on this site it's the stupid (like me) vs. the elite (like roger).

as ever it shall be. except, i'm not stupid ...
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Old 06-25-2016   #404
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You guys are butchering statistics as it is known!
What can I say, I am a butcher by trade
 

Old 06-25-2016   #405
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nah, Raid, whining. on this site it's the stupid (like me) vs. the elite (like roger).

as ever it shall be. except, i'm not stupid ...
This you are not, and nobody would say such a thing.
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Old 06-25-2016   #406
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What can I say, I am a butcher by trade
I must have sensed it!
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Old 06-25-2016   #407
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nah, Raid, whining. on this site it's the stupid (like me) vs. the elite (like roger).

as ever it shall be. except, i'm not stupid ...
Hi Paul ,

You can only sell a lie for so long. It's gotten to the point that the common man and woman realize they have been taken. If the elites do not adjust their attitudes - and quickly - there will be hell to pay all around.

Sadly, some of us, and clearly not members of the elite, continue to buy into the lie - just because a 'good old boy' like you has seen through the ruse! ;-)

Randy
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Old 06-25-2016   #408
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nah, Raid, whining. on this site it's the stupid (like me) vs. the elite (like roger).

as ever it shall be. except, i'm not stupid ...
Of course you are not stupid. You are just wrong.
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Old 06-25-2016   #409
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Correction: Britain voted to leave the European Union. I did make the point that the UK made the right choice in not adopting the Euro, though my phrasing was sloppy.
Correction: Britain without Scotland. That means England + Wales voted to leave.

Northern Ireland voted to stay but they are not in Britain.

Besides the (dis) United Kingdom both major parties are self destroying:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...johnson-leade/
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Old 06-25-2016   #410
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Eh? Would you care to explain what you mean by that?
For that matter, can you explain what you mean by that?
Cheers, R.
State of disorder.
Sweden will probably go next followed by one or two more.
The next Greek crisis is coming.
Scotland now wants to hold another referendum, the second one, to become independent from England...therefore remain in the EU....They better hurry before all the paperwork is done.
Turkey is smiling.
As one who has been run over by the Karma bus, and a great believer of reaping what you sow.....Karma is having a wonderful day with England, but that's a long story for another day.
Cheers.
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Old 06-25-2016   #411
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thanks, randy ...
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Old 06-25-2016   #412
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I just read that this is the beginning of the end for the EU..and that a fiscal crisis the size of 2008 is on the way..
Don't know if that's going to happen or not..but...this is serious biz..not to be trifled with..
 

Old 06-25-2016   #413
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It would be the z test for a proportion where we test the hypothesis that p is less or equal to 50% versus p exceeds 50%. With such a huge "sample", of course the test will be significant. The difference between BREXIT support and REMAIN support is non-zero, and it favored BREXIT.

This is a statistically significant difference, but is it a meaningful difference on the ground? In clinical trials, we often hear a similar argument. It is of statistical significance, but is it of clinical significance? Drug X shows a 0.1% improvement in the patients over Drug Y. Is it of clinical relevance?
Not really an analogous situation. Winning by a tiny bit delivers a complete cure so far as the Brexiters are concerned. The cost and side effects of the therapy never concerned them. Indeed, they maintained that the cost was negative.
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Old 06-25-2016   #414
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Interesting how some just don't get it. There is an upheaval. In Australia we have the luxury of being a nation on an island continent. But Americans have a border with Canada and Mexico. Under other historical circumstances many who currently don't understand the complexity of cross-border trans-national grouping might after all.
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Old 06-25-2016   #415
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Sweden will probably go next followed by one or two more.
I don't know where you get this from, but I assure you Sweden isn't going anywhere. The universal reaction here is total bemusement, mixed with horror at the backward-looking, fear-mongering, racist campaigning of the leave camp.

There's an underlying problem which Brexit shares with Trump in the States: the fear and confusion of the working classes, as their place in the global economy has become uncertain, and their distrust of what they perceive as distant political elites has grown.

As always, instead of turning on those that are responsible, their hatred and anger is deflected upon the weakest in the social order - outsiders, immigrants, refugees.

It's easy for the unscrupulous and evil to manipulate the atavistic tendencies of the angry masses. What scares me most, as the hyper-rich horde their totally inconceivable piles of lucre, is that their are political jackals sniffing the putrid air and sensing the time is ripe for them to openly hunt in ways that haven't been possible for over 70 years.
 

Old 06-25-2016   #416
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I don't know where you get this from, but I assure you Sweden isn't going anywhere.
Apparently the Mother country wasn't going anywhere 24 hours before the voting started.
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Old 06-25-2016   #417
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I don't know where you get this from, but I assure you Sweden isn't going anywhere. The universal reaction here is total bemusement, mixed with horror at the backward-looking, fear-mongering, racist campaigning of the leave camp.

There's an underlying problem which Brexit shares with Trump in the States: the fear and confusion of the working classes, as their place in the global economy has become uncertain, and their distrust of what they perceive as distant political elites has grown.

As always, instead of turning on those that are responsible, their hatred and anger is deflected upon the weakest in the social order - outsiders, immigrants, refugees.

It's easy for the unscrupulous and evil to manipulate the atavistic tendencies of the angry masses. What scares me most, as the hyper-rich horde their totally inconceivable piles of lucre, is that their are political jackals sniffing the putrid air and sensing the time is ripe for them to openly hunt in ways that haven't been possible for over 70 years.
Quite an agglomeration of clichés, slogans and prejudice. Not an ounce of understanding or an attempt to see why so many are displeased. Thus the 'Leave' is so bewildering. And when it happens in Sweden or the Netherlands or Italy, I'm sure the elites will be even more bemused and befuddled. Or in the case of Sweden and its unending flood of hostile migrants and "rapefugees", they'll be strangers in their own homes. Maybe only then will they forward a petition to Brussels for help. The EU mandarins will send a commission to see what's up. Or just tell everyone to shut up because they're "Racists".
 

Old 06-25-2016   #418
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Who is this f.hayek? Step forward man, introduce your selves.
 

Old 06-25-2016   #419
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I suspect the uncertainty created by Brexit and the many implications of it including the potential losers in a wealthier nation like Britain, will focus other Europeans on counting their current blessings where there are some. So mass exit seems less likely rather than more likely by my reading.
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Old 06-26-2016   #420
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oh, my, when will the whining by the losers end!
Well, it wouldn't have ended if the situation had been reversed, either. Here's a quote from the Mirror newspaper website, from an interview with Mr Farage on 16th May:

"Nigel Farage warns today he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin next month.

The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.

Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”

The actual result was 51.9 - 48.1 in favour of the Leave campaign.

 

Old 06-26-2016   #421
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Hi Paul ,

You can only sell a lie for so long. It's gotten to the point that the common man and woman realize they have been taken. If the elites do not adjust their attitudes - and quickly - there will be hell to pay all around.

Sadly, some of us, and clearly not members of the elite, continue to buy into the lie - just because a 'good old boy' like you has seen through the ruse! ;-)

Randy
Hi,

Why are you equating elite with liars? Most of them are politicians.

Regards, David

PS (Edit) A lot of things said during the run up to the vote may have been missed by those of you not reading the UK's so called newspapers. I've seen and heard claims that equated a vague "europe" with Hitler and the Nazi party, rapists and heaven only knows what else. Cameron did a very justified rant, imo, about all the lies being told ad spread.
 

Old 06-26-2016   #422
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Originally Posted by raid View Post
It would be the z test for a proportion where we test the hypothesis that p is less or equal to 50% versus p exceeds 50%. With such a huge "sample", of course the test will be significant. The difference between BREXIT support and REMAIN support is non-zero, and it favored BREXIT.

This is a statistically significant difference, but is it a meaningful difference on the ground? In clinical trials, we often hear a similar argument. It is of statistical significance, but is it of clinical significance? Drug X shows a 0.1% improvement in the patients over Drug Y. Is it of clinical relevance?
Hi,

You should never explain jokes as it destroys them completely. They work because they make people think and realise things that they wouldn't normally think about.

(EDIT: Sorry Raid, I didn't mean it to be as blunt as that.)

As the great man said, if you want to tell the truth you have to make it a joke...

Regards, David
 

Old 06-26-2016   #423
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Hi,

Bearing in mind the results of the referendum, it is interesting to read what BJ had to say about trade unions asking their members if they would strike...

You'll find it here:-

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/paul...b_4757133.html

Regards, David
 

Old 06-26-2016   #424
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oh, my, when will the whining by the losers end!
Hi,

My money's on the winners whining for a lot longer when they get the independence they want; for a lot of them it will be independence from working for a living...

But this isn't purely a black and white situation, so winners and losers doesn't cover it, although it does simplify matters and that was the problem with the referendum.

FWIW, I think people ought to take a voters test before they can vote, a lot like a driving test. And the tests for the people they vote for would be even stricter...

Regards, David
 

Old 06-26-2016   #425
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There are always "50% below the median".
Definition: The median of a population is that value such that 50% of the population exceed it and 50% fall below it.
With anything as sloppily defined, culturally specific and subjective as "intelligence", it matters very little whether you use arithmetic mean, geometric mean, median or probably even mode. "Average" is at least as precise as any of the attempts at refinement.

Cheers,

R.
 

Old 06-26-2016   #426
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but the real tragedy will be if Iceland beat England.
 

Old 06-26-2016   #427
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Hi,

My money's on the winners whining for a lot longer when they get the independence they want; for a lot of them it will be independence from working for a living...

But this isn't purely a black and white situation, so winners and losers doesn't cover it, although it does simplify matters and that was the problem with the referendum.

FWIW, I think people ought to take a voters test before they can vote, a lot like a driving test. And the tests for the people they vote for would be even stricter...

Regards, David
Dear David,

Not sure about Para 3, but Para 1 is very likely true and Para 2 is indisputable.

Those who whinge about "elites" might also ask themselves (a) what they mean by "elite" and (b) how the "elite" got to be the "elite" in the first place. Sometimes the answer is inherited wealth (which by definition they did nothing to earn); sometimes, privilege (the right school, university, etc.); but to the resentful, "elite" is often a place-holder for intelligence and education. I'm certainly not wealthy, and rather less privileged than many (certainly not Eton and Oxford)...

Cheers,

R.
 

Old 06-26-2016   #428
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Over 3 million on the petition on the government website now

At this rate it could overtake the Leave vote in a week or so

What's become clear in the last 24 hours is the leadership of the Leave campaigns had no expectation of winning and haven't a clue how they can get net immigration down. A UKIP speaker in BBC Any Questions show yesterday was quite explicit that their policy on immigration is to use the issue to get electoral support so they can get into Parliament. Their immigration policy is to spread fear of immigration, to boost their party's chances. They have no ideas whatsoever how to reduce it.

So just a bunch of neo-fascist liars. NOT the representatives of the aspirations of those whose votes they seek. Just old-style populist hucksters. Anyone from the USA remember Huey P Long?

Jim
 

Old 06-26-2016   #429
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I just read that this is the beginning of the end for the EU..and that a fiscal crisis the size of 2008 is on the way..
Don't know if that's going to happen or not..but...this is serious biz..not to be trifled with..
The end of the EU...I see it unlikely, as they are asking the UK to leave as soon as possible I assume somebody has scented the smell of money they make without London (that is a sort of fiscal paradise in the EU at the moment) in the market.

The end of the UK is much more likely, the Scots are already preparing a referendum:



For the financial crisis, I don't think it will reach the peak of 2008 but it's going to be a serious issue for the next months

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Apparently the Mother country wasn't going anywhere 24 hours before the voting started.
Interesting to see how you think to know Sweden better than a Swedish...I know that country well as I had the privilege to live there for my master when I was a young student, and they way Swedes think is way different from the isolationist English.

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Over 3 million on the petition on the government website now

At this rate it could overtake the Leave vote in a week or so

What's become clear in the last 24 hours is the leadership of the Leave campaigns had no expectation of winning and haven't a clue how they can get net immigration down. A UKIP speaker in BBC Any Questions show yesterday was quite explicit that their policy on immigration is to use the issue to get electoral support so they can get into Parliament. Their immigration policy is to spread fear of immigration, to boost their party's chances. They have no ideas whatsoever how to reduce it.

So just a bunch of neo-fascist liars. NOT the representatives of the aspirations of those whose votes they seek. Just old-style populist hucksters. Anyone from the USA remember Huey P Long?

Jim
The only way to bring net immigration down is issuing VISAs, barring European foreigners to get in the UK without a job and deporting those who lost it, that's pretty simple.

The problem is that they want to have that privilege AND they also want to have access to the free market, and that proves they are so damn unfair and there should not be any negotiation with those people.
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Old 06-26-2016   #430
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Don't think they have a clue about anything at all. They are stalling, coming back on what they said before, (nothing new for a politician, but not this fast) and certainly were not prepared about the rest of the EU saying that they should leave as fast as possible.

They now have to stick their necks out and know that they are going to be scrutinised with a microscope and will have the bill for the tiniest misstep presented. Don't think any politician likes that.
 

Old 06-26-2016   #431
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Over 3 million on the petition on the government website now

At this rate it could overtake the Leave vote in a week or so

What's become clear in the last 24 hours is the leadership of the Leave campaigns had no expectation of winning and haven't a clue how they can get net immigration down. A UKIP speaker in BBC Any Questions show yesterday was quite explicit that their policy on immigration is to use the issue to get electoral support so they can get into Parliament. Their immigration policy is to spread fear of immigration, to boost their party's chances. They have no ideas whatsoever how to reduce it.

So just a bunch of neo-fascist liars. NOT the representatives of the aspirations of those whose votes they seek. Just old-style populist hucksters. Anyone from the USA remember Huey P Long?

Jim
Hmmm, I thought obtaining goods or services by deceit was illegal. And since no one should profit by an illegal act I wonder if the referendum could be overturned...

Perhaps this is a chance for everyone to get out of the mess they've caused by being honest, statesmanlike and starting again but with the truth. Trouble is, it will take Nissan and a few others to close and explain why before people realise what they've done.

Regards, David
 

Old 06-26-2016   #432
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Don't think they have a clue about anything at all. They are stalling, coming back on what they said before, (nothing new for a politician, but not this fast) and certainly were not prepared about the rest of the EU saying that they should leave as fast as possible.

They now have to stick their necks out and know that they are going to be scrutinised with a microscope and will have the bill for the tiniest misstep presented. Don't think any politician likes that.
Hmmm, before that happens all the MP's caught fiddling their expenses in 2009 will be arrested and prosecuted. I won't be holding my breath..

Regards, David
 

Old 06-26-2016   #433
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The stars on the EU flag are just a design feature and don't represent actual members. However I appreciate your symbolism, be prepared to cross out a few more stars in the coming years.

Indeed so ...
Pressure building in other EU countries for exit especially France and Austria.
 

Old 06-26-2016   #434
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Indeed so ...
Pressure building in other EU countries for exit especially France and Austria.
Yes from the local neo-fascist parties, FPO and Front National...these are the friends of the brexiters in Europe, and then they call the EU a Nazi government or something like that.
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Old 06-26-2016   #435
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France? Maybe, they are chauvinist enough to think they can make it on their own. On the other hand the rivalry with Germany is so big that giving them any perceived advantage is maybe a step too much. And they have a lot to loose of subventions.

Austria, don't know well enough. I'd think they'll follow Germany.
 

Old 06-26-2016   #436
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Don't think they have a clue about anything at all. They are stalling, coming back on what they said before, (nothing new for a politician, but not this fast) and certainly were not prepared about the rest of the EU saying that they should leave as fast as possible.

They now have to stick their necks out and know that they are going to be scrutinised with a microscope and will have the bill for the tiniest misstep presented. Don't think any politician likes that.
Not what Angela Merkel is saying, quite the opposite and whilst the commission heads and finance ministers might be p***ed it seems they might have acted too hastily.
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Old 06-26-2016   #437
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The day-after regret?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...mepage%2Fstory
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Old 06-26-2016   #438
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Not what Angela Merkel is saying, quite the opposite and whilst the commission heads and finance ministers might be p***ed it seems they might have acted too hastily.
Probably you heard this info from the same source that was promising 350 milions per year for the NHS.

According to the Italian newspapers she solicited the UK to leave as soon as possible, your representative in the EU commission already resigned as so your Euro parlamentares, they are having meetings between the three major shareholders of the Union (Italy, Germany and France) and they are all determined to accelerate the process as much as possible.

See? Sometimes being fluent in another language might be of help when you are selecting your sources.
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Old 06-26-2016   #439
Fraser
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I'm amazed this thread has not been shut down with all the insults flying about!
 

Old 06-26-2016   #440
sevo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gid View Post
Not what Angela Merkel is saying,
... but is it really a exit option from the Brexit to declare that it has not been binding after all? Legally they can do so, but they would be so deeply resented that the Tories would probably be wiped off the UK map one election on. The only reasonable way would be to make way for new elections - if these bring a strongly pro EU government, that would of course be perfectly entitled to reject the Brexit. But the Tories presumably would not survive a election either between Farage to the right and losing much of their pro EU past voters, so they will hardly be inclined to step back (even more so Boris Johnson, who'd probably advocate cannibalism if that would bring him a majority).
 
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