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X-pro1 or X-E2(s) to replace M4 and sony A7.
Old 02-22-2020   #1
Puggie
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X-pro1 or X-E2(s) to replace M4 and sony A7.

So I'm looking to seriously consolidate my tat for many reasons (time, space and cash being the primary drives). I currently have:

Sony A7, this is technically great, I wanted digital full frame and it delivered. Ergonomically I'd prefer a rangefinder style body.

Leica M4, mechanically beautiful, love it, but i no longer have the time for film developing or wet printing. I want a digital version, but cannot justify a digital m.

Lens wise a shoot mainly 35 and 50mm, an adapted contax g 35mm f2 planar on the sony, or the kit lens. The M4 gets an Elmar if I want pocketable, canon 50mm f1.2 if it's dark, or a Russian 35mm f2.8 boigon clone.

I'm thinking x-pro or e2 with the 23mm f2 as my general walkabout '35mm' and something a bit longer and faster to replace the canon (mikaton 35mm f0.95 possibly) and a relatively cheap wide ranging zoom for flexibility. I will probably move away from adapted legacy stuff with the body change.

I like the m4 size wise, hated evfs until the sony, still have a snobby attitude about going crop sensor but that is really me being silly.

I had a ricoh gxr with the m mount before the sony and really liked it, the handling was great with the clip on evf, and I don't really know why I got rid (it looked a bit ungainly with evf clipped on and a big legacy lens hanging off. I also had the contax g2 which was a nice handling body and awesome lenses, I guess I really want a digital G2! I also borrowed a friends X100 and liked that although would worry about just having one lens on my only camera, I did like the hybrid VF though.

So what would people advise I go for?
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Old 02-22-2020   #2
ruby.monkey
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Given your tastes in focal lengths and your preference for an RF-style body, you could do far worse than an X100(T or F, depending on budget) with the matching conversion lenses. You get a body that's a little smaller than an M3; 28mm-, 35mm-, and 50mm-equivalent fields of view; an excellent OVF/EVF, and all the major controls in the right place and working as a real camera should.

All in a package than can comfortably be shoved in your coat pockets and that wouldn't cost the Earth.
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Old 02-22-2020   #3
rhl-oregon
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All of these are in my past practice, too, though I went to A7 and RX1 from Fuji X (and GXR/M before that). Your rationale is sound, especially regarding preference for RF (and, I would add, manual controls for aperture and speed).

Unless you absolutely must be thrifty in changing gear, I wonder: Why not get a used XP2 (rather than XP1)? Think about the Long in the Tooth factor for digital bodies.

If I were to redo Fuji X, I’d certainly have another X100–the newest possible—as well as an interchangeable lens X body. (In my case, though, the interchanging of M lenses between the digital/film Ms and the A7ii Kolari—with AF, if I choose—makes the Fuji system a superfluous luxury....)

Good luck. Maybe someone here will trade gear with you. Fred Miranda is full of Sony-Fuji trade offers.
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Old 02-22-2020   #4
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Mentioned cameras except M4 are cheap these days. I would also consider X100 series if you want something new, grass is greener as they say.
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Old 02-22-2020   #5
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The pro series and the e series are quite different ergonomically so I would handle them, if possible, before buying. Fuji X's are quite a good deal used so you could try different bodies and move them on without a massive loss. I have an X-pro1 as my main camera and it doesn't miss a beat. I found the x-e series a bit small; not small enough to put in your coat pocket, and cramped and clumsy in use...ymmv
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Old 02-22-2020   #6
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i had m4 also and went for xe1. i think xpro optical vf will be useless fir manual focus of course and af is pretty slow on that one(its same as my xe1 and it can search a lot-i usually prepare and have to think forward so i prefocus dome point where action will happen after but thats not what people like in general).
so go for xe2 - price is roughly the same and better af, and better help for mf. and dont be scared from ceop sensor-i was also but its all fine-if you still miss shallow dof and your old lenaes - just grab one of those speed boosters and you will get native field of view and even one stop faster lens than it was.. so its a win win
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Old 02-22-2020   #7
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Honestly, I would put in a little more $ and get the X-E3 used. They are cheap, but modern and up to date.
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Old 02-22-2020   #8
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The X-pro3 is just a tiny bit larger on all 3 dimensions (WxHxD) than the M4, but if that works for you, I would say that the X-Pro3 is just about as close as perfection as you can get for a sub-$2000 RF-style digital body. Slap on a 23/2 and you're ready to hit the streets.

Here are the actual dimensions:

M4
138 x 77 x 33.5 mm

X-Pro3
141 x 83 x 46 mm
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Old 02-22-2020   #9
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Have you considered an M9 with a replacement sensor? I'm not sure if you're trying to release cash or just swop out your existing kit for something else...they're reasonably priced now (sometimes less than £2000) and hopefully reliable into the future. It should tick most of your boxes.
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Old 02-22-2020   #10
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When I was looking for a digital to replace my Leica M6, I settled on the Fuji X-Pro1 and later the X-Pro2.


Leica M6 & Fuji X-Pro1 by Narsuitus, on Flickr
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Old 02-22-2020   #11
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A few years ago, I bought an XE-2s/27mm kit to complement rather than replace an M4-2 I've owned forever. The XE-2 kit was priced at a deep discount because of the upcoming release of the new model, so it was very attractive to me as a digital rangefinder-style camera at half the price of the X100. Indeed, it's been a great walk-around camera, but much more Yashica/Contax than Leica M. I owned and loved using a Yashica T4 for years. I think, if you choose the X-Pro 1 and its high-bred VF, you will have found the true digital G2 you're looking for at terrific price these days.
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Old 02-22-2020   #12
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Wow thanks for all the input, I will ramble a bit more to clarify some points then address your thoughts.

I'm looking to free up some capital here, that is really my primary requirement. Secondarily I want less stuff, with the culling of my film camera the darkroom stuff will be going too and that is a very large enlarger with associated trays chemicals and a big box of paper. I'm not looking to upgrade if I'm honest, the A7 does everything I want and need, just not quite in the way I'd like, I like my rangefinders so want that body style, the wife has a fuji X10, that is nice but I want a step up from that. I don't make money from photography, I don;t get that much time to do it even now, this is just a nice fun hobby, nothing very serious, I'm no longer chasing the latest tech, 16Mp is plenty for me, the 24 of the sony is more than I need, The low light performance of the sony is ample for me, the AF is plenty good enough most of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruby.monkey View Post
Given your tastes in focal lengths and your preference for an RF-style body, you could do far worse than an X100(T or F, depending on budget) with the matching conversion lenses. You get a body that's a little smaller than an M3; 28mm-, 35mm-, and 50mm-equivalent fields of view; an excellent OVF/EVF, and all the major controls in the right place and working as a real camera should.

All in a package than can comfortably be shoved in your coat pockets and that wouldn't cost the Earth.
I borrowed and original X100 from a friend and I liked it, they are nice, I think I would miss not being able to swap lenses about. very occasionally I stuff an old 200mm canon on the sony, I like the flexibility to do that.
X100s seem to be expensive, a x100t would be £450-500, which compares to say a X-E2 and 23mmf2 price wise but lack the flexibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhl-oregon View Post
All of these are in my past practice, too, though I went to A7 and RX1 from Fuji X (and GXR/M before that). Your rationale is sound, especially regarding preference for RF (and, I would add, manual controls for aperture and speed).

Unless you absolutely must be thrifty in changing gear, I wonder: Why not get a used XP2 (rather than XP1)? Think about the Long in the Tooth factor for digital bodies.

If I were to redo Fuji X, I’d certainly have another X100–the newest possible—as well as an interchangeable lens X body. (In my case, though, the interchanging of M lenses between the digital/film Ms and the A7ii Kolari—with AF, if I choose—makes the Fuji system a superfluous luxury....)

Good luck. Maybe someone here will trade gear with you. Fred Miranda is full of Sony-Fuji trade offers.
XP2s are in the £600 region, add a 23mm prime and I'm spending £900ish. Could I realise that from my M4 (good working order, slightly tatty) and the Elmar 50mm f2.8 which is very tidy? If so it could be an option, the XP1 looks very cheap in comparison is it that lesser a camera, I'm perfectly happy with my 7 year old sony functionally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarski View Post
Mentioned cameras except M4 are cheap these days. I would also consider X100 series if you want something new, grass is greener as they say.
Honestly I'm looking for different, not necessarily newer or better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benlees View Post
The pro series and the e series are quite different ergonomically so I would handle them, if possible, before buying. Fuji X's are quite a good deal used so you could try different bodies and move them on without a massive loss. I have an X-pro1 as my main camera and it doesn't miss a beat. I found the x-e series a bit small; not small enough to put in your coat pocket, and cramped and clumsy in use...ymmv
very valid thought, I started with a Canon DSLR, an old 20D as I felt the XXXD series to be better specced for my budget, but I found the smaller plastic body less suited to my great big sausage fingered hands. Looking at some of my old images makes me think the crop sensor is no real issue compared to full frame, just me being a tart! My local to work LCE has a X-E2s in for £350 with the kit lens, that would probably be worth going to have a play with one lunch time next week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nzeeman View Post
i had m4 also and went for xe1. i think xpro optical vf will be useless fir manual focus of course and af is pretty slow on that one(its same as my xe1 and it can search a lot-i usually prepare and have to think forward so i prefocus dome point where action will happen after but thats not what people like in general).
so go for xe2 - price is roughly the same and better af, and better help for mf. and dont be scared from ceop sensor-i was also but its all fine-if you still miss shallow dof and your old lenaes - just grab one of those speed boosters and you will get native field of view and even one stop faster lens than it was.. so its a win win
Everything I see suggest the Pro OVF will be lousy for manual focus, I'm hoping to move to mostly maybe totally the native fuji lenses. I've found the natie sony lenses very good when I've used them, the fujis have an equally good rep from my reading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Honestly, I would put in a little more $ and get the X-E3 used. They are cheap, but modern and up to date.
Will have a look, on MBP they cost less than I expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kxl View Post
The X-pro3 is just a tiny bit larger on all 3 dimensions (WxHxD) than the M4, but if that works for you, I would say that the X-Pro3 is just about as close as perfection as you can get for a sub-$2000 RF-style digital body. Slap on a 23/2 and you're ready to hit the streets.

Here are the actual dimensions:

M4
138 x 77 x 33.5 mm

X-Pro3
141 x 83 x 46 mm
X-Pro3, not sure my pockets are that deep, I'm not sure they are XP2 deep, never mind XP3. Your thoughts give me confidence that I may get what I want from an Xpro though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James24 View Post
Have you considered an M9 with a replacement sensor? I'm not sure if you're trying to release cash or just swop out your existing kit for something else...they're reasonably priced now (sometimes less than £2000) and hopefully reliable into the future. It should tick most of your boxes.
Yep, considered it, followed the second hand prices (I reckon £1600 is achievable if I'm patient), and truly lusted after one, honestly it is the camera I want if I let my heart rule my head... but I can't justify sinking that kinda money into a body. Icould possibly sell the Sony the M4 and my darkroom gear to raise the funds, but I'm no longer freeing up any cash then.
still want one though!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Maslak View Post
A few years ago, I bought an XE-2s/27mm kit to complement rather than replace an M4-2 I've owned forever. The XE-2 kit was priced at a deep discount because of the upcoming release of the new model, so it was very attractive to me as a digital rangefinder-style camera at half the price of the X100. Indeed, it's been a great walk-around camera, but much more Yashica/Contax than Leica M. I owned and loved using a Yashica T4 for years. I think, if you choose the X-Pro 1 and its high-bred VF, you will have found the true digital G2 you're looking for at terrific price these days.
Yeah, I'm probably looking more for a digital G2 than a digital M, something the kids can use and get reasonable pics from too. I think X-Pro will be more what I want than the X-E. When I look at the X-E I bundle it in with the X100 as another possible, then get side tracked into Ricoh GRs and the like. There is a big price jump from Pro1 to 2, is the camera that much better?


I reckon the Pro1 or 2 would suit my big fat paws better than the X-E, the X-E is only marginally larger than the X10 which is too small and about the same as the X100 which I found as small as I'd want to go if I'm honest. The Pro 3 is too rich, is the Pro2 3x the camera the pro 1 is and how do they stack up against my A7? decisions decisions. I really need to find a pro 1 to play with!
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Old 02-22-2020   #13
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and yes i use 18/2 fuji (that has working af and stiff mf - so i got it for 50eur ) and 35/2 fuji ... both are aswesome and more than you will ever need-but of course cheap chinese or adapted lenses can always be fun if you feel the need for different look... i recommend 7artisans 35/1.2 - totally non corrected lens but somehow makes very pretty images.. i sold mine when i was out of money-but if i come across some cheap used one I'll get it surely again.

and yes you ask if there is really big jump from xpro1 to xpro2... im sure that there is huge one... for all i know xpro1 is slower af than my xe1 and i use it with lens that has officially fast af (35/2) but it still hunts very long in low light. so if you plan some street photos of people in low light i think it will make your life hard...

also dont worry about size of xe1 - i also have pretty big hands but i dont feel like its too small-im 185cm so i guess its around 6'1 and bigger hands than people my height so you can have some rough idea about it-its more less size of leica m and if you really need bigger just add grip..
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Old 02-22-2020   #14
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I think you should look at the XPro2 or one of the X100 models. You should get enough from the sale of the Leica to finance a large part of the purchase.
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Old 02-23-2020   #15
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Do your research on the value of your M4 and 50 Elmar. Leica film bodies and classic formulation lenses have undergone somewhat of a surge in the last few years.
They may well be saleable for far more than what your admirably humble estimates suggest.
Personally, I would never leave myself without a Leica film M. Only the film Leicas go up in value, for the most part. Digital loses value, more so if it’s not a Leica ...
Best of luck!
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Old 02-23-2020   #16
leicapixie
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Never sell a Leica. Never sell a Leica-M !
No cameras feels or works like one.
Sure you can make a "profit" but regrets will hound you.
If too tired to develop film and scan, send it out!
Look for a cheap used Fuji or whatever..
I am often the "one" who says get real with Leica Love..
But..I have never sold my Leica.

Last edited by leicapixie : 02-23-2020 at 01:16. Reason: spelling
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Old 02-23-2020   #17
James24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leicapixie View Post
Never sell a Leica. Never sell a Leica-M !
Having sold several Leicas, I mostly agree with this.

I think I would rather say ONLY sell a Leica if you replace it with another one.
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Old 02-23-2020   #18
narsuitus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puggie View Post
Wow thanks for all the input, I will ramble a bit more to clarify some points then address your thoughts.

I'm looking to free up some capital here, that is really my primary requirement. Secondarily I want less stuff, with the culling of my film camera the darkroom stuff will be going too and that is a very large enlarger with associated trays chemicals and a big box of paper. I'm not looking to upgrade if I'm honest, the A7 does everything I want and need, just not quite in the way I'd like, I like my rangefinders so want that body style, the wife has a fuji X10, that is nice but I want a step up from that. I don't make money from photography, I don;t get that much time to do it even now, this is just a nice fun hobby, nothing very serious, I'm no longer chasing the latest tech, 16Mp is plenty for me, the 24 of the sony is more than I need, The low light performance of the sony is ample for me, the AF is plenty good enough most of the time.



I borrowed and original X100 from a friend and I liked it, they are nice, I think I would miss not being able to swap lenses about. very occasionally I stuff an old 200mm canon on the sony, I like the flexibility to do that.
X100s seem to be expensive, a x100t would be £450-500, which compares to say a X-E2 and 23mmf2 price wise but lack the flexibility



XP2s are in the £600 region, add a 23mm prime and I'm spending £900ish. Could I realise that from my M4 (good working order, slightly tatty) and the Elmar 50mm f2.8 which is very tidy? If so it could be an option, the XP1 looks very cheap in comparison is it that lesser a camera, I'm perfectly happy with my 7 year old sony functionally.



Honestly I'm looking for different, not necessarily newer or better.



very valid thought, I started with a Canon DSLR, an old 20D as I felt the XXXD series to be better specced for my budget, but I found the smaller plastic body less suited to my great big sausage fingered hands. Looking at some of my old images makes me think the crop sensor is no real issue compared to full frame, just me being a tart! My local to work LCE has a X-E2s in for £350 with the kit lens, that would probably be worth going to have a play with one lunch time next week.



Everything I see suggest the Pro OVF will be lousy for manual focus, I'm hoping to move to mostly maybe totally the native fuji lenses. I've found the natie sony lenses very good when I've used them, the fujis have an equally good rep from my reading.



Will have a look, on MBP they cost less than I expected.



X-Pro3, not sure my pockets are that deep, I'm not sure they are XP2 deep, never mind XP3. Your thoughts give me confidence that I may get what I want from an Xpro though.



Yep, considered it, followed the second hand prices (I reckon £1600 is achievable if I'm patient), and truly lusted after one, honestly it is the camera I want if I let my heart rule my head... but I can't justify sinking that kinda money into a body. Icould possibly sell the Sony the M4 and my darkroom gear to raise the funds, but I'm no longer freeing up any cash then.
still want one though!



Yeah, I'm probably looking more for a digital G2 than a digital M, something the kids can use and get reasonable pics from too. I think X-Pro will be more what I want than the X-E. When I look at the X-E I bundle it in with the X100 as another possible, then get side tracked into Ricoh GRs and the like. There is a big price jump from Pro1 to 2, is the camera that much better?


I reckon the Pro1 or 2 would suit my big fat paws better than the X-E, the X-E is only marginally larger than the X10 which is too small and about the same as the X100 which I found as small as I'd want to go if I'm honest. The Pro 3 is too rich, is the Pro2 3x the camera the pro 1 is and how do they stack up against my A7? decisions decisions. I really need to find a pro 1 to play with!
Wow !

You commented on everyone's post except mine.

Did I offend you?
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Old 02-23-2020   #19
Puggie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nzeeman View Post
and yes i use 18/2 fuji (that has working af and stiff mf - so i got it for 50eur ) and 35/2 fuji ... both are aswesome and more than you will ever need-but of course cheap chinese or adapted lenses can always be fun if you feel the need for different look... i recommend 7artisans 35/1.2 - totally non corrected lens but somehow makes very pretty images.. i sold mine when i was out of money-but if i come across some cheap used one I'll get it surely again.

and yes you ask if there is really big jump from xpro1 to xpro2... im sure that there is huge one... for all i know xpro1 is slower af than my xe1 and i use it with lens that has officially fast af (35/2) but it still hunts very long in low light. so if you plan some street photos of people in low light i think it will make your life hard...

also dont worry about size of xe1 - i also have pretty big hands but i dont feel like its too small-im 185cm so i guess its around 6'1 and bigger hands than people my height so you can have some rough idea about it-its more less size of leica m and if you really need bigger just add grip..
I'm leaning to the Xpro, but will have a play with the local X-E2 this week while I get rid of my other cameras. Not considered a grip, but the newer Fuji one looks quite good, the general size would be about on par with my Sony, but the view finder in a more sensible place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogman View Post
I think you should look at the XPro2 or one of the X100 models. You should get enough from the sale of the Leica to finance a large part of the purchase.
Yep, leaning to the XPro more than the X100, the Pros seem a better second hand purchase (lose more value, the Pro1s in particular seem very affordable).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mute-on View Post
Do your research on the value of your M4 and 50 Elmar. Leica film bodies and classic formulation lenses have undergone somewhat of a surge in the last few years.
They may well be saleable for far more than what your admirably humble estimates suggest.
Personally, I would never leave myself without a Leica film M. Only the film Leicas go up in value, for the most part. Digital loses value, more so if it’s not a Leica ...
Best of luck!
Yes a cursory ebay search would suggest the body and lens are worth stronger money than I originally assumed. My issue here is I don't have the time any longer to use a film M. I've only souped a couple of rolls of film this last year and my enlarger has been sat in the garage in pieces since moving house about 4-5 years ago. This tells me as much as I enjoyed the process its time to move on. M9s seem to have bottomed out in value, but I think I would get more use from say an x-pro2 for less than half the money, and as stated up top,money is also an issue here. I'd honestly also rather see the camera used by someone else than sat in my camera bag doing nothing, its a precision mechanical device, its needs use to be worth anything (I'm also a petrol head and hate seeing cars in museums, they are much more interesting flying round race tracks and up hills)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by leicapixie View Post
Never sell a Leica. Never sell a Leica-M !
No cameras feels or works like one.
Sure you can make a "profit" but regrets will hound you.
If too tired to develop film and scan, send it out!
Look for a cheap used Fuji or whatever..
I am often the "one" who says get real with Leica Love..
But..I have never sold my Leica.
I started with an M3 and sold that when I needed a bit of cash for something more important. Yep I regretted it for a while, but then later replaced it with this M4 (in the meantime was a Canon Vt and contax G system, they were not real replacements). Sending film out (especially B&W) is expensive and honestly, pulling the reel out of the dev tank and seeing pictures is the best bit, I never tire, its magical, just like watching prints appear in the dev tray. I'm not looking to move the M on purposely for a profit (although I did buy it hoping financially it could be an investment if I ever did really need the cash), I don't want it to sit dormant, I do want something to use. At the moment its not getting enough use for my liking and my personal situation is not going t give me time to shoot and dev even a few rolls a month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James24 View Post
Having sold several Leicas, I mostly agree with this.

I think I would rather say ONLY sell a Leica if you replace it with another one.
Ultimately when I have the time to play with chemicals again I will replace it with another M, or possibly go digital M as some point. If the M4 makes real strong money I could go M9 at this point. I had a brief play with an M8 and it didn't feel the same, an M9 might with the bigger viewfinder,

Quote:
Originally Posted by narsuitus View Post
Wow !

You commented on everyone's post except mine.

Did I offend you?
Sorry, I rolled down the list and thought I had hit multi quote on everyone , must have just missed you. I think Xpro 1 or 2 may be the way I go. I'm thinking:

a) Buy an X-Pro1 and 23mm f2 and dip my toe in the system and see what I think, this is probably a sub £500 investment so quite frugal and I can build from there (this is where I thought I'd be at the start of the thread)

b) Buy an X-Pro2 and 23mm F2 and possibly the 35mm and even the 18-135mm zoom, that is all should need covered I think.

c) the M4 makes real strong money, the A7 seems to still command around £350, if I can get some good cash from my DeVere 504 then an M9 could be within my grasp. yes digital is not worth investment, it will always lose value, but I don;t think the M9 has much to lose.

Where is good to get realistic valuations on stuff, I see not dedicated forum section for such questions, do I just pitch a thread in the relevant section?
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Old 02-23-2020   #20
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An M-E usually sits around the £1800-£1900 mark. It's an M9 with a few unnecessary bits omitted.
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Old 02-23-2020   #21
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My first post, I couldn't help but pitch in on the conversation of the X-pro1. Maybe my experiences could help with your decision making.

I got a second-hand XP1 around 5 years ago to replace an XE-1, since then it has been around the world no less than 3 times. It has been to deserts, rainforests, up mountains, and was severely abused all the way. To me the cost of the camera was pretty minimal (around $300) so I wasn't all that concerned about the repair costs since I'd just replace it, but in spite of me treating it like a disposable camera it somehow went through everything. It was dropped many, many times; concrete stairs, rock slides, you name it - it has no paint on any of its edges and the strap lugs have nearly worn through. Shots from the camera made it into a few magazines and print publications over the years, some of them full spreads.

A few months ago I was very unhappy to find on a trip that the camera stopped working due to shutter failure. One thing to know about the XP1 is there's no reliable way of finding out the shutter count, but I suspect that I shot well over 100k pics and I have no idea how many the previous owner took. Whattever it is, it was a respectable number that would probably be in line with any pro SLR, just be aware that there will be an amount of luck involved in buying a second hand one regarding shutter life.

I really loved the camera. I was really fond of the form factor, looks, price and lenses (the 35mm 1.4 is my favorite 50mm alongside the Zeiss Planar), but if you've got the funds I can't recommend that you buy it. I strongly recommend the XP2 instead, you get a lot for the extra money. The AF of the XP1 is accurate but glacial (yes the firmware was updated) - I missed a lot of photos as a result, and the EVF is like looking at a cheap screen through a periscope. The quality of the images on the XP2 IMO are a significant step forward, for some reason the XP1 images always looked soft and lacked the colour depth of the more recent fujis. That said, there are people that actually prefer the XP1 images so you may disagree, I would recommend downloading raw files. I also find the XP2 has significantly more refined ergonomics with the larger thumb grip area and the addition of the joystick.

Personally I've moved away from Fuji to Canon 5d series SLRs since it suits my needs better. I can certainly say that the full frame vs crop sensor thing is an important thing to think about, I have to say if Fuji had FF sensors and offered a high res body I would have stayed in the system (imagine adapted M mount lenses on fuji bodies uncropped! Drool). That said if you don't need higher MP or shallower depth of field than equivalent F2 or 2.8 or want to adapt legacy lenses then I think a move to fuji won't cause any regrets.

Final note, you mention the G2 - the XP series are basically Contax G bodies but with better viewfinders. People usually compare XP bodies to Leica M, but IMO they have much more in common with Kyocera Contaxes in terms of design, layout, and general functionality.
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Old 02-23-2020   #22
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Being a ex-film M shooter I went with the GXR so I could use my M lenses. Then when I realized that most of my keeper shots in film were done with a 35mm lens, I picked up a used Sony RX-1 and that was my only camera from about three years. I then added a Sony A7s two years ago since I still had my M stuff there is something to be said for never getting rid of Leica bodies and lenses as other people have said. However if I was looking to downsize I would look long and hard at the Fuji X-100 as new as possible. I have two friends that shoot with them and do great work. One of them keeps looking at my RX-1 but stays with his Fuji.
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Old 02-23-2020   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puggie View Post

XP2s are in the £600 region, add a 23mm prime and I'm spending £900ish. Could I realise that from my M4 (good working order, slightly tatty) and the Elmar 50mm f2.8 which is very tidy? If so it could be an option, the XP1 looks very cheap in comparison is it that lesser a camera, I'm perfectly happy with my 7 year old sony functionally.





Everything I see suggest the Pro OVF will be lousy for manual focus, I'm hoping to move to mostly maybe totally the native fuji lenses. I've found the natie sony lenses very good when I've used them, the fujis have an equally good rep from my reading.


X-Pro3, not sure my pockets are that deep, I'm not sure they are XP2 deep, never mind XP3. Your thoughts give me confidence that I may get what I want from an Xpro though.


I reckon the Pro1 or 2 would suit my big fat paws better than the X-E, the X-E is only marginally larger than the X10 which is too small and about the same as the X100 which I found as small as I'd want to go if I'm honest. The Pro 3 is too rich, is the Pro2 3x the camera the pro 1 is and how do they stack up against my A7? decisions decisions. I really need to find a pro 1 to play with!

Editing to respond to just the Xpro comments...
I tried out the Xpro3 a few times in my local shop and was very critical about it as I was viewing it in terms of using it as a manual focus style RF camera. There I think it is horrible if you use the OVF. If you use the EVF it is fine for manual focus.
BUT.. this is with the Xpro3 which has a much better EVF than the 1 & 2 models.
Then I viewed the camera as a rangefinder style camera that uses the native Fuji AF lenses. This is much much better. It works great that way - OVF but with AF. Really what a Leica M would be if it had AF.
I know that Xpro3 is not in your budget but from what I have seen the Xpro2 is also very very good used in this way. And from my research the Xpro1 is not. The AF is very slow, so I would not recommend that one. Plus it is getting old.
So, I'd suggest a nice used Xpro2 with native Fuji AF lenses.
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Old 02-23-2020   #24
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What Huss says is true... and if on a budget that doesn’t include the X-Pro2, the X-E3. I cannot stress how good that little camera is for the cash. Especially used.
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Old 02-23-2020   #25
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Final note, you mention the G2 - the XP series are basically Contax G bodies but with better viewfinders. People usually compare XP bodies to Leica M, but IMO they have much more in common with Kyocera Contaxes in terms of design, layout, and general functionality.
I agree completely! Even the X-T series is shaped like the RTS. The only Fuji that looks like a Leica is the X100 series... more so the original.
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Old 02-23-2020   #26
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Another for the X-E3, this is as close as you can get in a modern digital RF style camera. The only thing that might be closer to the M4 in spirit would be the Epson RD1, but it has some limitations in low light. I've shot several of my M mount lenses on the E3, focus takes a lot of practice. Peaking works pretty good, I found the split screen mode totally useless for me. The standard mode with the magnification seems to be what works the best for me.
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Old 02-23-2020   #27
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So the general consensus is X-pro2 if I'm feeling flush and X-E3 if I'm not. I use my manual focus lenses on the sony using magnification for critical focus. This was one thing I loved about the GXR, you had the mode where the view finder defaulted to 10x magnification, then on a half press of the shutter the VF zoomed out to the full frame to compose and you take the pic. If someone else had that functionality, I'd be easily swayed, it made such intuitive work of manual focussing.

I appreciate all second hand cameras are a bit of a gamble, I've only been bitten once.

Right need a valuation for some stuff to shift!
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Old 02-23-2020   #28
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I love, love my X-Pro1 with the 27mm f2.8 lens. It is my everyday carry camera and is the only camera I've owned since my OM2n for which I feel affection.
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Old 02-23-2020   #29
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Right, could you people be so kind as to give me rough price guides for the following items.
The best indication for prices would be to put the search filter for show olny "sold items" while searching for each of the items you'd like to sell, you'll get more accurate information from those that list than we're likely to give you here.
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Old 02-23-2020   #30
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Excessive dump of some gear pictures... Are you selling here instead of classifieds?


Here is no replacement for film M, even digital M can't do it. Selling working M4 for something which shades price fast, sucks.
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Old 02-23-2020   #31
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Excessive dump of some gear pictures... Are you selling here instead of classifieds?


Here is no replacement for film M, even digital M can't do it. Selling working M4 for something which shades price fast, sucks.
Nope, happy to run it through the classifieds if anyone is interested, I stated so at the start of the pics. I've sold here through the classifieds before quite happily, prices are fair and it works. I was just advised further up to check pricing as my estimates were a bit off, I'd like guide prices before checking up any ads. I can trawl ebay sold prices if that is a better way to do it.
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Old 02-23-2020   #32
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I can trawl ebay sold prices if that is a better way to do it.
Yeah, probably the easiest.
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Old 02-23-2020   #33
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I am traveling in Asia and have the X100F and M2 along. In three months, I have taken less then a roll of film with the M2. Most of my photos are on the X100F and GoPro (scuba diving).

Take a long hard look at the X100F. With the release of the X100V, there will be a lot of used F's for sale. You can pick up both aux lenses used at B&H for $300 each. And remember the X100F has cropped jpeg setting for 50m and 70mm built into the camera. Am not sure the focal length equivalent if you use the 50 aux lens and 70 crop setting, perhaps 90mm.
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Old 02-24-2020   #34
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If you consider an XPro, I advise to go for the XP2 over the XP1. While I like and still use XP1 cameras, the XP2 is much better in many ways. Not that the XP1 is bad, it's just quirky and you have to adapt to those quirks. Things like a non adjustable diopter eyepiece, framelines that are so bright they can be annoying in low light, AF that's slower than the norm today and a few other factors that might unsettle a new user. The XP2 is an improvement in these areas. Much like was said earlier, the XP2 is what a Leica would have been if a Leica was designed for AF. I'm a former film Leica user and I personally would never consider using a rangefinder focus camera again. (I have some vision problems that prevent me from accurately focusing using the rangefinder patch or a split image SLR screen.)
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Old 02-24-2020   #35
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Really what a Leica M would be if it had AF.
Now that is hyperbole. A Leica M(essucher) would no longer be a Leica M if it had Autofocus. It would be an SL.

I don't understand all these comparisons between Leica rangefinders and Fuji X cameras. The former are rangefinder manual focus full-frame cameras, the latter are none of those things.

I say this not to ruffle feathers, but simply to say that it might be a bit misleading and/or disingenuous to suggest that Fuji X cameras are really just auto-focus Leica M cameras. They are nothing of the sort.
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Old 02-24-2020   #36
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Here is no replacement for film M, even digital M can't do it. Selling working M4 for something which shades price fast, sucks.
I really do agree with this.
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Old 02-24-2020   #37
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Would have to say a +1 for holding on to the film Leica if you enjoy using it.

The digital stuff comes and goes, none of them is worth selling a film Leica for.

Drink a few less coffees/beers/pick your poisons a week and you can afford a used Fuji whatever pretty quick.
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Old 02-24-2020   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCSmith View Post
Now that is hyperbole. A Leica M(essucher) would no longer be a Leica M if it had Autofocus. It would be an SL.

I don't understand all these comparisons between Leica rangefinders and Fuji X cameras. The former are rangefinder manual focus full-frame cameras, the latter are none of those things.

I say this not to ruffle feathers, but simply to say that it might be a bit misleading and/or disingenuous to suggest that Fuji X cameras are really just auto-focus Leica M cameras. They are nothing of the sort.
Is it too much of stretch to think that someone who likes a Leica M but wants an autofocus digital camera might be most comfortable with an X-Pro or X100? I mean both have OVFs, are rangefinder shaped, and have small lenses. Also dedicated shutter speed dials and aperture rings. Sure, they will not scratch the mechanical rangefinder itch if that’s your fetish, but they are absolutely comfortable for someone who wants a digital autofocus camera that doesn’t conform to the norm (like Leica). Former Leica user and current Fuji user.
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Old 02-24-2020   #39
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Would have to say a +1 for holding on to the film Leica if you enjoy using it.

The digital stuff comes and goes, none of them is worth selling a film Leica for.

Drink a few less coffees/beers/pick your poisons a week and you can afford a used Fuji whatever pretty quick.
It really depends on if they are just tools for photography for you or if you consider them family heirlooms. I’ve sold Leicas and do not regret it. You can always buy another one if you miss it so much. If I had limited funds, I would buy the camera I want to use the most. Leicas are sexy but they aren’t always the best tool. Of course they CAN be the best tool sometimes too.
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Old 02-24-2020   #40
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I'm starting to think you should keep the M4, if possible.


The Fuji X-E3 and X-T20 have the same sensor and processor as the "pro" offerings but are very affordable.
The X-E3 is currently selling for $650CDN new. A used X-pro2 is selling for $900ish. That makes an X-E3 a bargain even new. Your local prices will vary, of course.
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