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Old 01-11-2020   #81
rulnacco
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Screw that screw. What effect does it have on image quality or camera usability? I'd love to have that camera--and I'd use the hell out of it, even in crappy conditions where it might accumulate a bit of wear and dust.

I don't use cameras as a fondling substitute. I *shoot* with the damned things. Isn't that what they're for?
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Old 01-11-2020   #82
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The reason Leica put the ugly screw in there..large and obnoxious..
Kinda like sayin..
Screw you...
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Old 01-11-2020   #83
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For me it doesn't make a difference, I think there are at least 20 ft left on the roll of black electrical tape,
in case the screw does annoy the hell out of me when I look through the finder ... but I doubt it.

Can I see some images please ...
taken with the camera, not of the camera?
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Old 01-11-2020   #84
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Is there any release date? 2020 is long...almost an year...
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Old 01-11-2020   #85
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Is there any release date? 2020 is long...almost an year...

Some people seems to "write in LUF" ( https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic...ge/2/#comments ) that it's for next week.
Nothing official but why not.
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Old 01-11-2020   #86
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Psychologically, this is Leica showing their contempt for us. They know their customers will buy anything. Royal Danish Wedding - really? So they're giving us a big screw.

This is a tough pill to swallow, but so be it. The screw is one of the most vital parts of the camera. We have to be strong in spirit and be thankful for what they have given us.
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Old 01-13-2020   #87
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https://photorumors.com/2020/01/13/l...m10-monochrom/
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Old 01-13-2020   #88
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I love my M246, now that it is dialed in, but I regard debugging a new digital M across 13 lenses with the same excitement I have about walking into a car dealership...
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Old 01-13-2020   #89
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I love my M246, now that it is dialed in, but I regard debugging a new digital M across 13 lenses with the same excitement I have about walking into a car dealership...
Debugging? Dialing in? What exactly are you doing?
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Old 01-13-2020   #90
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Debugging? Dialing in? What exactly are you doing?
Probably, as has been my experience, getting all the lenses focusing properly with the rangefinder. What I have found with digital Ms is that when purchased they all need to go off for calibration, then re-calibrated every 2-3 years (bear in mind 2 years for me is ~20,000 images and 5-700 shoots). My 246 and 28, 2x50 and 75 lenses are off now having that done during their 'vacation' in Wetzlar.

One opportunity the M10 Mono poses for me is to have 2 B&W Ms so I can always be in possession of one for use. Sounds a bit like 1980s Jaguars, but it is what it is.

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Old 01-13-2020   #91
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How many owners are going to attempt to make that slot vertical?
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Old 01-13-2020   #92
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How many owners are going to attempt to make that slot vertical?
Hold my beer.
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Leica M10 Monochrom picture leaked online
Old 01-13-2020   #93
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Leica M10 Monochrom picture leaked online

I will hold off on this model and wait for the red screw limited edition.


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Old 01-13-2020   #94
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This might just be my Leica camera going forward. I will start selling some stuff.
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Old 01-13-2020   #95
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This might just be my Leica camera going forward. I will start selling some stuff.
Do not sell your screw driver.
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Old 01-14-2020   #96
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It looks amazing. I do still wish that Leica would build a monochrome sensor camera with a 4 or 5 stop nd filter array over some of the sensor pixels to increase the highlight exposure range. Cameras can process the rgb input from bayer filter sensors so it should be trivial to implement, but it hasn’t been done. There are still plenty of situations where the highlight rendition and/or the way highlights blend to pure white is a lot less nice than it was on film.
I have no idea how "a 4 or 5 stop nd filter array over some of the sensor pixels to increase the highlight exposure range" could be a practical solution to the dynamic range problem."

However, I am willing to learn more about this idea.

What Determines Dynamic Range

A sensor's effective analog dynamic is directly proportion to its analog signal-to-noise ratio. More exposure (longer shutter times, wider apertures and illuminance) increases the signal level. The dynamic range is maximized by maximizing exposure.

Another factor that affects dynamic range is the sensor's photodiode conversion gain. Designs with a low conversion gain increase the number of photoelectrons that can be stored as electrical charge in each photodiode. This maximizes signal in bright light, which in our increases dynamic range. But in low light (when dynamic range is not important) a high conversion gain maximizes photo diode sensitivity. This means camera designers must choose a compromise conversion-gain to maximize dynamic range at the expense of sensitivity - or vice versa.

The noise consists of electronic noise (read noise) due common to all circuits. Another source of noise is photon noise (also called shot noise or quantum noise.).[1] For most contemporary digital cameras the read noise level is lower than the photon noise level unless the scene illuminance is extremely low less than - EV = -3. Photon noise levels are camera independent.[2] This means exposure and conversion gain determine the maximum dynamic range.



1. Photon noise is inherent to turning light every into photoelectrons. The source cause is related to the particle-wave duality*nature of quantum mechanics. The creation of photoelectrons empirically probabilistic. The variation in photoelectron creation for a consent exposure is beyond human control.

2. Sensor area and pixel size both serve to maximize an image's total signal level. However pixel size has a limited effect in contemporary designs - details here.
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Old 01-14-2020   #97
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Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
I have no idea how "a 4 or 5 stop nd filter array over some of the sensor pixels to increase the highlight exposure range" could be a practical solution to the dynamic range problem."

However, I am willing to learn more about this idea.

What Determines Dynamic Range

A sensor's effective analog dynamic is directly proportion to its analog signal-to-noise ratio. More exposure (longer shutter times, wider apertures and illuminance) increases the signal level. The dynamic range is maximized by maximizing exposure.

Another factor that affects dynamic range is the sensor's photodiode conversion gain. Designs with a low conversion gain increase the number of photoelectrons that can be stored as electrical charge in each photodiode. This maximizes signal in bright light, which in our increases dynamic range. But in low light (when dynamic range is not important) a high conversion gain maximizes photo diode sensitivity. This means camera designers must choose a compromise conversion-gain to maximize dynamic range at the expense of sensitivity - or vice versa.

The noise consists of electronic noise (read noise) due common to all circuits. Another source of noise is photon noise (also called shot noise or quantum noise.).[1] For most contemporary digital cameras the read noise level is lower than the photon noise level unless the scene illuminance is extremely low less than - EV = -3. Photon noise levels are camera independent.[2] This means exposure and conversion gain determine the maximum dynamic range.



1. Photon noise is inherent to turning light every into photoelectrons. The source cause is related to the particle-wave duality*nature of quantum mechanics. The creation of photoelectrons empirically probabilistic. The variation in photoelectron creation for a consent exposure is beyond human control.

2. Sensor area and pixel size both serve to maximize an image's total signal level. However pixel size has a limited effect in contemporary designs - details here.
You have misunderstood me. Please note that I said exposure range, not dynamic range. They are different. Dynamic range is what the sensor gives you and you have explained above, exposure range is what you get out of the camera.

This is a good summary: https://theonlinephotographer.typepa...ge-part-i.html

An ND filter would provide the sensor with a way to obtain information in brighter areas of the photo (however many stops the filter was), where it currently is pure white or “clipped” as it is commonly called. This would allow the camera to get additional highlight information and more importantly provide gentler tonal transition in the highlights of the images. The DR of the sensor would, of course, stay the same. Some microscope cameras work this way and save having to bracket and stack the images.

Marty
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Old 01-15-2020   #98
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On Leica Rumors an interesting view of the top plate on the M10M: it shows an ISO dial where a film rewind would be.

I'm not sure if I like it or not. On one hand I'm a minimalist, but then on the other hand it could be a convenient feature. I sit in the middle.

So now we have something new to fight over.

The 41 MP count got confirmed. I figure crazy resolution of say a 60 MP color sensor. Many say the lack of a Bayer Filter Array increases resolution by a third.

Then there is a report of a lowered highest ISO. Not sure how this effects the sensor design or for what the sensor was optimized for.

I'd be curious about Willie's response since he has an interesting technical background.

BTW high ISO for me is 1600. I never go higher. I like clean files and that's what is important to me. This is carried over from film I guess, and also because I tend to minimize post processing and optimize at time of image capture.

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Old 01-15-2020   #99
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Clean ISO 25,000 files would make me swap my M9M out.
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Old 01-15-2020   #100
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On Leica Rumors an interesting view of the top plate on the M10M: it shows an ISO dial where a film rewind would be.


Cal
How's that any different from the regular M10?
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Old 01-15-2020   #101
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How's that any different from the regular M10?
Huss,

Good point. New to me a MM user. Never owned a color M-body.

What is interesting when comparing ISO range, the M10 has a max of 50K, and the M10M has a high ISO of only 25K.

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Old 01-15-2020   #102
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Then there is a report of a lowered highest ISO. Not sure how this effects the sensor design or for what the sensor was optimized for.
It is supposedly a new sensor architecture, in common with the (very delayed) new S series body. So yes, it might well have a new, lower, base ISO.

Doing the sums on some of the (terrifying) hypothesised price points, and it looks to me that if the camera will last more than 3 to 4 years it will then work out cheaper than the B&W film that I am currently shooting. But I am not sure that I am ready to abandon film just yet - the M10 did not manage to change that and I am not sure that an M10M would be any different.

But then again, that screw is deeply hypnotic. And history suggests that all great artists need a big screw every now and then...
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Old 01-15-2020   #103
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It is supposedly a new sensor architecture, in common with the (very delayed) new S series body. So yes, it might well have a new, lower, base ISO.

Doing the sums on some of the (terrifying) hypothesised price points, and it looks to me that if the camera will last more than 3 to 4 years it will then work out cheaper than the B&W film that I am currently shooting. But I am not sure that I am ready to abandon film just yet - the M10 did not manage to change that and I am not sure that an M10M would be any different.

But then again, that screw is deeply hypnotic. And history suggests that all great artists need a big screw every now and then...
Mark,

I still shoot film, but most of my shooting today is digital.

Seven years ago my MM cost $8K, I still own it, and it remains a good camera. With a new sensor (free) and the overhaul it received when the sensor was replaced (free), I expect easily another decade or more of use.

Some of the best money I ever spent, I learned a lot, and I became a better photographer.

Do what's good for you, but don't be afraid of the expense. Its part of the journey.

Cal
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Old 01-15-2020   #104
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At the least for that 8K..they could make the "screw you bud" screw... whiz around like a banshee..every time you click the shutter button..and maybe..even light up in a blast of rainbow colors..
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Old 01-15-2020   #105
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Do what's good for you, but don't be afraid of the expense. Its part of the journey.l
Part of the problem is the risk. It seems to be impossible to get viable insurance for expensive camera gear (Spain). Several times I have found myself shooting in riots where people were throwing acrylic paint, and in one case molotov cocktails. Recently I was shooting at night and witnessed a woman being mugged by three men. There was nothing that I could do - the men got away with her necklace, although fortunately she was otherwise physically unharmed. After that I have been very wary about shooting alone at night with expensive equipment.

But beyond that there is still something about shooting film that is not captured with digital. I do not know if it is the limitations of the cameras/medium, the process, or just my own internal biases. Perhaps digital just seems too easy or too ubiquitous. Or perhaps the limitations and quirks of Leica rangefinders only really make sense in the context of a film body where those limitations and quirks are inherent.

That said, I am in the market for a higher resolution digital body and have been considering jumping (digital) ship for a few months now. As I shoot almost entirely in B&W, maybe the M10M will be an alternative.
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Old 01-15-2020   #106
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Do what's good for you, but don't be afraid of the expense. Its part of the journey.
Yeah, let them eat cake.
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Old 01-15-2020   #107
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Screw that screw. What effect does it have on image quality or camera usability? I'd love to have that camera--and I'd use the hell out of it, even in crappy conditions where it might accumulate a bit of wear and dust.

I don't use cameras as a fondling substitute. I *shoot* with the damned things. Isn't that what they're for?
So buy one already.
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Old 01-15-2020   #108
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Huss,

Good point. New to me a MM user. Never owned a color M-body.

What is interesting when comparing ISO range, the M10 has a max of 50K, and the M10M has a high ISO of only 25K.

Cal
Not surprising. More pixels, less photons, less low-light ability. Not sure why you would cap it, though, since 25k on an M246 still has comparable grain/noise to Tri-X.

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Old 01-15-2020   #109
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Debugging? Dialing in? What exactly are you doing?
Lens cams have tolerances. Cameras have tolerances. Even the squareness of a lens' RF cam to the lens axis can cause focusing issues, since it interacts with the parallelism of the RF roller to the bottom of the camera.

Those issues don't get smaller as you up the pixel count and increase the lens speed.

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Old 01-15-2020   #110
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I will hold off on this model and wait for the red screw limited edition.


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I loved that one.... my tea spewed from my mouth
I am still laughing
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Old 01-16-2020   #111
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Part of the problem is the risk. It seems to be impossible to get viable insurance for expensive camera gear (Spain). Several times I have found myself shooting in riots where people were throwing acrylic paint, and in one case molotov cocktails. Recently I was shooting at night and witnessed a woman being mugged by three men. There was nothing that I could do - the men got away with her necklace, although fortunately she was otherwise physically unharmed. After that I have been very wary about shooting alone at night with expensive equipment.

But beyond that there is still something about shooting film that is not captured with digital. I do not know if it is the limitations of the cameras/medium, the process, or just my own internal biases. Perhaps digital just seems too easy or too ubiquitous. Or perhaps the limitations and quirks of Leica rangefinders only really make sense in the context of a film body where those limitations and quirks are inherent.

That said, I am in the market for a higher resolution digital body and have been considering jumping (digital) ship for a few months now. As I shoot almost entirely in B&W, maybe the M10M will be an alternative.
Mark,

Recently I had a free luxury vacation in Europe: Amsterdam, Germany, France, and eventually Basel Switzerland. I was carrying a SL, a CL, 50 Lux-SL, and APO 35 Cron. Pretty much kept over $20K worth of cameras on my person.

In Strausbourg France I had some odd aggressor grab my right fore arm. As this man got loud and agitated, I stepped inbetween him and my gal to protect her, as other people scattered creating distance. This was during the day, and know that the previous night we were touring around and had no such incident.

I freed myself from his grip, made a fist to indicate where this was going, and it all ended as abruptly as it all began.

I too consider the risks and the targeting. This is also another reason why I still shoot film. While not inexpensive, loosing or destroying a camera due to violence I would rather damage or destroy a less costly rig.

Crap happens... Be safe.

Cal
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Old 01-17-2020   #112
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And here it is: https://us.leica-camera.com/Photogra...-M10-Monochrom

$8295.
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Old 01-17-2020   #113
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A review from B&H
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dM--MOxfD0
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Old 01-17-2020   #114
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That print looks like chalk and soot..
And..they forgot to mention the screw you screw...
Liked the homeless guy at the end though..lol..
Here is another vid..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRF0LoAQERU
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Old 01-17-2020   #115
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Is this camera “$2295 better” than an SL2?
Is it $5500 better” than an SL?

(Still thinking this over)
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Old 01-17-2020   #116
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Jeepers, £7250 here - so $9,425 in the UK.

Possibly might not sell the kidney.
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Old 01-17-2020   #117
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By a pure coincidence, I also hear that legal fees and dental work are set to go up to coincide with its launch.....
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Old 01-17-2020   #118
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Is this camera “$2295 better” than an SL2?
Is it $5500 better” than an SL?

(Still thinking this over)
If you are a digital B&W photographer and love a true rangefinder then maybe.
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Old 01-17-2020   #119
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Is this camera “$2295 better” than an SL2?
Is it $5500 better” than an SL?

(Still thinking this over)
Absolutely.

Of course I use a real monokwom kamwah - a Leica M-A with Silberra Orto 50.
But it still has a crooked screw so I'm ok (I got a replacement for the one I threw in the trash).
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Old 01-17-2020   #120
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I think I'll stick with FP4+. I'll let you know when I get through the 1270ish rolls it would take to pay for this idiot identifier.
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