m4 or m6??
Old 05-30-2007   #1
xavi
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m4 or m6??

Hi, again...
I'm a owner of a M4 in good condition. But i'm thinking to move to an M6. But for do that i need money, so i'm thinking about selling my M4. The only "problem" with M4 is the Light meter.
I only use 35 and 50 mm. lens
Would you do that?.
Thanks and sorry for my english
best regards
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Old 05-30-2007   #2
Rafael
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If you have something else to sell, you could look for an M6 Classic with a 0.85x finder. Put the 50 on the M6 and the 35 on the M4 and you will have a great kit! Just a suggestion... Good luck with your search.
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Old 05-30-2007   #3
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I would stick with the M4.

The M6 finder is difficult to use in backlit situations..
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Old 05-30-2007   #4
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The M4 is a beautiful camera and very collectable. From looking at recent sales on eBay those that are in good shape seem to be going for close to the same price as an M6.

Have you considered a Zeiss Ikon or an inexpensive Bessa? It might be nice for you to have a Bessa in your camera case for when you want the metering---aperture priority even---and then use the M4 for when you want to enjoy all of it's charms.

I'd love a black M4, drool....
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Old 05-30-2007   #5
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Old 05-30-2007   #6
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I have both M4 and M6. Using the MR-4 meter on the M4 is only a nansecond slower than the M6 (I tend to meter occasionally and alter exposure by eye as I sense the light changes). Both have been equally reliable. At the point I ever get a digital M and give up film I would probably sell the M6, only because the M4 has been with me through thick and thin.
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Old 05-30-2007   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xavi
Hi, again...
I'm a owner of a M4 in good condition. But i'm thinking to move to an M6.......
I only use 35 and 50 mm. lens



Would you do that?.

Thanks and sorry for my english

best regards
No. I would sell the M4, buy a M2, and use the extra dough toward a lens you like.
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Old 05-30-2007   #8
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keep M4 and be patient. Save some $ and wait for user M6.
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Old 05-30-2007   #9
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Forgive me if you've already thought of this, but why not just get a hand-held meter? The M4 is a wondeful camera, and the uncluttered framelines are a huge plus.
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Old 05-30-2007   #10
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I've owned M4 and M6, the meter in the M6 is really worth having and extremely accurate in most situations. I've owned my M6 for 10 years and never had a problem - great camera

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Old 05-30-2007   #11
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As mentioned above, having to look through the viewfinder to check the meter can be a nuisance, and tips people off to your intentions (if discretion is required). Consider a meter like the VC II or Leicameter, which clips on top and can be checked with the camera held at the waist.
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Old 05-30-2007   #12
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Only you can decide.

Both are good cameras. Best would be to try an M6 at a shop, or to sell the M4 after
you have happily received the M6. From a users stand-point there
is really not much difference between a clean M4 and clean M6, except
the lightmeter and the 28/75mm framelines (but they don't seem
to matter for you).

If your M4 is clean, you should be able to trade it equally to a user M6.

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Old 05-30-2007   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35mmdelux
keep M4 and be patient. Save some $ and wait for user M6.
The M6 would fee at home to you since (taking aside the materials and workmanship) it is essentially an M4 with the self-timer replaced with a meter and winder mechanism. and the finder can be upgraded with an MP style condenser for less than $200.

In any case, I agree with 35mmdelux. Stick with the M4 until you can afford an M6 classic (as a second body). At that point, if I may make a prediction, the M4 will become the “back-up.”
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Old 05-30-2007   #14
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Quote:
Avoid the M6 if you can... Nadir M...
With all due respect, this is nonsense. The M6 is really the camera that kept Leica Ms alive for almost 20 years, even if the M4-2 was the lifeline from the M5 debacle (great camera, poor business event). There is nothing wrong with having a meter, and there is nothing really wrong with the M6's design or manufacture.

Almost every M model had problems in its early production, including the M4, the M5, the M4-2 and the M7. I am not bringing to mind right now any early production issues with the M2 or the M4-P, but there may have been some. The M3 definitely underwent a variety of design changes in its early years before it reached "perfection." Look at how the market regards (and prices) the late M3s compared to the earlyl ones if you doubt how people feel about those changes.

I have owned just about every M model. I am currently using a Wetzlar M6 from the first year of production, a .85x M6 from the last year of classic M6 production, an M4 from the last year of chrome production and an M3 from the first year of production. They are all superb cameras. Yes, there have been changes in materials and methods over the years. Some are improvements (coated finder optics), some are not (plastic frame counters). If I had to choose only one, I'd probably pick the .85x M6 classic, but thankfully right now I don't.

There is no such thing as a bad M.
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Old 05-30-2007   #15
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*sa

you're a total chump if you get an m6.
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Old 05-30-2007   #16
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xavi, if you like the M4 and you are using negative film, I'd buy a light meter, carry it around for a week, and get a feel for reading light and how things change below Sunny 16. That should really decrease your need for the M6, except in tricky lighting. Then you can do a quick read with your hand-held.
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Old 05-30-2007   #17
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I sold a trusty M4 when the M6 came out in the mid 80s with the thought - 'Great!, an M4 with a light meter!'.

Well, the M6 isn't up to an M4 in fit-finish or built quality, but it is still a great camera. Had mine for about 15 years before I went back to the M5 for my metered Leica (which is another metered Leica M-camera with something(s) 'extra' that really sets it apart for the ordinary M-series). The M6 did everything I asked it to do under all sorts of conditions. For a 'classic' M-style body with a built in behind the lens meter, its a good choice, plenty of nice used ones around at a lot less than a used MP. Get one that's working the way it should and I'm sure you'd be happy with it.

Actually I was too tempted by an M6 titanium a few days ago and picked it up. Don't really need it, but with the M5 in for an adjustment I easily justified it. Feels like 'old times'; some things change, some things stay the same...
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Old 05-30-2007   #18
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One of the caveats with built-in light meters, is metering and adjusting exposure every shot. But that's not the way to go. You're better off metering the light once, setting the exposure, and stick with that unless the light changes. And this you can do with a handheld meter just as good as with a built-in one.
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Old 05-30-2007   #19
xavi
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Well, not easy to decide...
I use to shot slides, so i need a fine meter. Normally, i can adjust the exposure by myself, but i like to shot in low and difficult ligth conditions. Then i need a handheld meter (i own a Polaris one). So i think one buid-in-meter is more discreet for street pictures. That's the question. But i like a lot my M4.
I'll wait.
thank's a lot
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Old 05-30-2007   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xavi
Well, not easy to decide...
I use to shot slides, so i need a fine meter. Normally, i can adjust the exposure by myself, but i like to shot in low and difficult ligth conditions. Then i need a handheld meter (i own a Polaris one). So i think one buid-in-meter is more discreet for street pictures. That's the question. But i like a lot my M4.
I'll wait.
thank's a lot
With the M6 you must bring the camera up to your eye (in shooting position) in order to use the built-in meter to set the exposure, because the exposure information is in the viewfinder. This makes it look as if you are taking a picture before you activate the shutter. A handheld meter enables you to set the exposure without raising the camera to shooting position. I think the handheld meter is therefore more discreet.

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Old 05-31-2007   #21
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Old 05-31-2007   #22
Andy Aitken
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Nothing wrong with the M6?!?!

How about that all the framelines are the wrong size.

You already have the best camera Leica ever made. I bet you'd regret trading it for an M6. If you must have a meter the VCII works great - yes it's different from having a TTL meter but in many ways I find it better.
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Old 05-31-2007   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nobbylon
.... And before anyone starts on about not needing it, if photographers didn't want meters Leica and others would have left them out...
That argument doesn't fly..

If built-in meters were great, why would Nikon (and the same holds for Canon and anyone else for that matter) have upped the number of measuring matrix elements to a staggering 1005 over the years?

Answer: to compensate for the fact that built-in meters measure reflectance, and not light.

The only true reason for a built-in meter is convenience..
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Old 05-31-2007   #24
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Quote:
There are a couple of issues, and the man asked 'M4 or M6?' Between the two, the clear answer is 'M4'.
Not so sure that's so clear, really? I used unmetered Ms only for years. Never owned an M5 until recently, so the M6 was the first metered M I owned - bought two in 1984. I was and remain very happy to have a meter readout in the finder so that when, for example, I turn from my sister and her husband in the window of the restaurant on Mothers Day to my mother over in the shadows I can, if I need to, adjust the exposure. (In real life, I'll just read the difference once and adjust w/o the meter thereafter, but having the meter onboard is a real plus in many cases.) There is absolutely no question that the nicest M body I've every owned, which is quite a few, is an M4, but that doesn't make it the best photogaphic tool, and certainly doesn't make it *everyone's* best tool.


Quote:
How about that all the framelines are the wrong size.
Fair and forgotten point. Actually, what bugs me more than the size is (1) the jumble (the 75mm frames particularly annoy me) and (2) the change in shape of the 90mm frames (which I use a lot). The best framelines IMO were in the M3 (as long as you didn't want 35mm!), with the M2/M4/M5 (and, yes, M4-2) up next.
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Old 05-31-2007   #25
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It all comes down to... how you use your camera, and not everyone is the same here.

I love my M4 - there I said it - for its basic features, built quality, 'history' [with me], and... how it handles, or the 'style' of making photography with it. There is something special and basic about looking at the light and knowing what the exposure setting is from experience, or taking a reading from a handheld meter or looking down at an MR meter and then bringing the camera up only when the exposure is needed. The advantages over the M6? The finder is the main point with more accurate frames (still not perfect), and a rangefinder patch that doesn't white-out very often, also the over-all built feel, a self-timer (and yes it does come in handy with family and friends), and even the 'cool' factor with the engravings and brass top plate... Wetzlar MOJO...

As I've said, I had an M6 for many years and it did what I asked of it without any hick-ups and its a very nice camera. Sometimes its just nice to throw the camera over your shoulder and not think about an extra thing like a light meter, and with slide film light meters are a bit more important. The M6 can do everything an M4 can do with a bit less 'cool' maybe, but makes up for it with a meter on board - if you need it. Like a handheld meter you can take a reading and then not think too much about exposures down the line, but it is a lot faster working with changing light. And with a TTL meter its fairly easy to see where you are taking a meter reading from, an advantage in difficult light. As for the frames, once you understand the differences in camera frame to negative you can make the adjustments.

The best Leica... maybe the M5. If you can work with its size, it has the most advanced feature set, best meter, built like a tank with the Wetzlar finish and quality, and handles great.
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Old 05-31-2007   #26
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Quote:
If built-in meters were great, why would Nikon (and the same holds for Canon and anyone else for that matter) have upped the number of measuring matrix elements to a staggering 1005 over the years?

Answer: to compensate for the fact that built-in meters measure reflectance, and not light.

The only true reason for a built-in meter is convenience.
With respect, that in no way counters the argument that photographers want built-in meters (which is the argument that you claim doesn't fly).
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Old 05-31-2007   #27
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Peter,
not quite sure what point you are making. Yes I agree with you that the reason meters where put in cameras was for the convenience but that's what I was saying. A lot of photogs like the convenience of an inbuilt meter.
I've used cameras with inbuilt meters since 70's and the only times when i've had exposures wrong was my own fault not using AE intelligently. I use my R's in mainly aperture spot mode and manual now and then and have found the M6 spot meter superb. Have not had a bad exposure yet with it.
I think inbuilt meters are great and yes Nikon and Canon have developed their systems to the n'th degree but aren't these matrix systems designed like this to out smart so to speak, tricky lighting situations for AE modes? It's all about convenience. If you use the internal spot meters and meter how you like then results will hopefully be as you want them. As I said in my original post, for me an M was about carrying as little as possible. Going to places and not looking like a tourist with a huge slr and camera bag full of goodies. Knowing that I can slip camera with lens in my overcoat pocket.
My personal list of requirements was,
1/ pockatable with lens
2/ strong
3/ meter
4/ LEICA
As a last thought I would say my perfect M (film) would be an MP with an M6 rewind.
Not for build quality or brass top or cool factor but simply because its the latest version of a manual M. Funny how Leica chose to put a meter in it
kind regards all john
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Old 05-31-2007   #28
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Old 05-31-2007   #29
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UFFF!!, i can't belive this. So many questions in one!!.
I like my M4, but i like it because it permit me to take pictures. It's just a tool, nice tool, ok, but a tool. So, if i can "reach" another tool (quite similar by the way) that permit me to take "better" pictures, i'll do it. But, i'm not sure if M6 is better tool than M4, not more beautiful or somethihs like that. And the light meter is important for me.
Please, peace!!!
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Old 05-31-2007   #30
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Magus, sorry what I should have said was ' selective exposure meter' which is more spot type rather than average,
regards john
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Old 05-31-2007   #31
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I own both and use them both for different purposes. I don't really like the M6 meter but it's handy in situation where an incident meter won't work. So the M6 gets high speed B&W film and I use it for shooting candids in low light.
The M4 usually has colour slide or slow B&W for special purpose, holiday, family photos etc. where I can take my time.
During the darker months my M6 lives in my bag on a daily basis. Now that it's bright and sunny, it's the M4.
Xavi, I would keep the M4 and if budget is a concern, try and pick up a nice used Bessa from the classifieds here, and you'll have a fine rangefinder camera with good metering.
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Old 05-31-2007   #32
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The M6 metering pattern, at least as tested by Modern and Pop Photo back in 84/85, looked pretty much like the old Nikon center-weighted averaging, IIRC.

The M5, ahh yes. Thing is, it's not quite the same platform. So much to like and prefer there on so many grounds, but it just doesn't "read" the same to the hands. That's totally personal (but this whole discussion is about personal opinions).

For me, head says M6 classic, especially in the .85x version because of the lenses I use...heart says M4...but really, just give me one and let me take pictures....
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Old 05-31-2007   #33
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I say go for the average.

M4 + M6 / 2 = M5

Sell the M4. Buy an M5. Maybe you will have a bit of change left over. A nano second after your index finger finds the shutter speed dial you will ask yourself why EVERY camera isn't made the same way. The viewfinder is equal to the M4. A week after you've had it the size won't matter. The meter. Ah yes, the meter. The best light meter I have ever used, in a camera or in my hand.

There you have it. Fit & finish & build equal to or better than the M4. The viewfinder and meter the M6 wishes it had. The best user layout of virtually any camera ever. The M5.

Or not. It is too big and too ugly afterall.
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Old 05-31-2007   #34
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I think it depends on how you shoot. I have found the internal meter of the M6 slows me down. I get the camera to my eye, see the red arrows before I even think of focus or framing, and concentrate on getting them lined up properly. I find the shot I wanted is usually gone before the arrows are correct. Now, with my M3 and either the Leica MR, or the Sekonic L308-s I take a reading before the camera gets eye level, and can keep shooting until the light condition change. It is so nice to look into the viewfinder without the annoying red LEDs. Sometimes I pull the battery out of the 6 and use it like my 3. If you shoot like me, then the M4 is a keeper. But, if you need to measure every pic, go for the M6. I love my M6 for the finder frames, 28 75 90. If I got my hands on an M4, the finder would be upgraded to the M6/MP finder when sent in for a CLA.
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Old 05-31-2007   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nobbylon
Peter,
not quite sure what point you are making.
I merely wanted to point out that there are two ways to use a meter, and that built-in meters lure you into going into one of these two modes..

One is to meter every scene as it presents itself in the finder, and adjust the exposure untill the meter needle is in the middle. At this point, you have to compensate for the subject. Dark subject need under- and light objects need over exposure from the measured value. Everytime you change subject, you adjust the exposure..

The other is to use a middle grey subject, measure only once, and then don't touch the controls anymore untill the light changes. For this way of working, you can use a built-in meter, but you could just as well use a handheld one; the light doesn't constantly change..
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Old 05-31-2007   #36
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The M6 may be more practical for some who use polarizers or contrast filters, since metering through the filter makes it unnecessary to compensate manually for the filter factor.

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Old 05-31-2007   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richard_l
The M6 may be more practical for some who use polarizers or contrast filters, since metering through the filter makes it unnecessary to compensate manually for the filter factor.

Richard
Polarizers and ND-grads are an SLR's forte I guess. But even then, the recommended procedure for using ND-grads is to measure the darkest part without a filter first.
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Old 05-31-2007   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikFive
If you want a built in meter on your camera go with the M6. I didnt like that I had to take my eye of the viewfinder to check the meter.
If you have a problem with the finder just buy a SHADE from Leicagoodies:
http://www.leicagoodies.com/ 13$ incl shipping or uppgrade to the MP finder.

Edit: I dont have the built in meter in my head as some here has
Eric, did you have the chance to actually use leicagoodie's SHADE ? I was wondering how good it works in reality as reported by actual users. I also experience flareness of my M6's which at a time is really annoying, but the RF upgrade to MP's isn't currently an option due to necessity to ship the camera abroad back and forth..(can be done locally in my country), perhaps is some far future...
So if their patch is indeed as effective in real situations as they advertise, I'd tend to think 13-15$ to be well spent...
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Old 06-01-2007   #39
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Thanks. In fact I was a bit doubtful in regard of farmelins/focusing patch brightness once their shade is attached since it appears to limit the light entering the window.
But perhaps just a mere of 13-15$ worth the shoot...
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Old 06-01-2007   #40
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M3, M2 Metal Lever VS M4, M6 plastic lever? Banky Leica M Film Cameras 30 04-27-2007 07:10
A few quickie quesitons . . . about M4. pizzahut88 Leica M Film Cameras 13 03-06-2007 04:21
40mm Cron C and my new M6! thafred Leica M Film Cameras 15 10-27-2006 03:51



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