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Held off on M240 and may buy A7r. Anyone else in this boat?
Old 11-16-2013   #1
eleskin
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Held off on M240 and may buy A7r. Anyone else in this boat?

I went from a film M6, to an M8, skipped the M9, bought a Nex 5n and am now using the excellent X-Pro 1. However, I need a full frame option for my extensive Leica M lens collection and when the M240 came out I was excited, but not by the price at $7k! I am seriously considering the A7r instead of the M240. I can no longer justify many thousands of dollars on cameras that become outdated so quickly. Leica, I feel is overpricing and overbuilding their cameras. It is senseless to build camera bodies that would last decades when the electronics suffer from digital rot and various failures. M lenses are a different story, and I have no problem plunking down hard earned money for Leica lenses (I buy used though). I feel an M240 like body built like the Fuji X Pro-1 with an A7r sensor offered by Leica at a much lower price would be a much better business model. They probably will never do that. So here, the A7r is the best choice I feel. So who else feels like me? Hesitating on an expensive and electronically outdated M240 and seriously considering the Sony based on image quality potential exclusively not camera feel.
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Old 11-16-2013   #2
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No. I shoot RFs with OVFs. "Outdated M240"? I'm sure it'll be unshootable for your needs in a matter of months ... I know it's a long shot that you'll buy one, but if you do and when it outdates you please send the worthless paperweight to me.
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Old 11-16-2013   #3
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Outdated? What does that mean? Not enough of something or just no longer trendy. 24mp's is hard to outdate imo (so are 10mp's).

Anyway, I had a fondle of the a7.
Was excited about the platform but now... meh.
It won't improve my work or workflow. Staying with 5diesel and Fuji for digital.
Hoping for a 50mm fixed lens leaf shutter fuji in the next product cycle.
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Old 11-16-2013   #4
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Have five M mount lenses. Am still mostly film (have X100) but feel the need to become more modern, especially with the amazing technology available in new cameras. I am going around the world next summer and the Sony is certainly attractive although I am also looking at a used M9 or ME.

Of course, I may stay cheap and light and just carry the X100.
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Old 11-16-2013   #5
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I got a new M-E for the price of a used M9 and couldn't be happier about sticking with that outdated camera and giving the whole M240 thing a big miss.

When the dust settles in a couple of years I may look at picking up an A7 or similar.
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Old 11-16-2013   #6
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I accept your main points: "Leica, I feel is overpricing and overbuilding their cameras," and "M lenses are a different story."

I'd say 'overbuilt' only in the sense of added features and bulk. What I really wanted was the 'Mini-M' that Leica advertised and then flubbed (with the Vario).

So I'm stuck at M9 – likely to be the last of 40 years of Leicas for me (still have M4 purchased in '72).

I'll definitely consider other FF bodies for M lenses, but won't buy A7r until I see what Fuji offers in a year or so. Like several of my friends/colleagues, I'm currently enjoying X100s as an every-day, carry-around camera. It also eliminates the need for an M240 to reach higher ISOs.
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Old 11-16-2013   #7
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Not in the same boat and I won't be buying anything Sony.

But I'd thought I'd at least show some comparisons of what you'd have if you buy into the Sony compared to a Leica.





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Old 11-16-2013   #8
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The A7s will be be great for 50s and up

a number of 35s are good, but not all.

28s we are starting to get iffy, maybe the cron is ok on the edges by 5.6 Elmarit v3 could be OK.

Below 28, really good performance is not currently extant. It will be rare with RF glass. Tiny lenses 35 and below will need at least APS-H crop---if you want the corners sharp in the shot.

Maybe the zm18 is OK.

Now the centers on everything are outstanding.

If I had extensive RF collection 28 and below, I would grab a used M9 for 3500.

I don't see the M240 advantage---yet.
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Old 11-16-2013   #9
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Is the RF experience worth $5,000? For some people, yes. For me, certainly no.

I have film RFs I use when I want to shoot with an OVF, but digital cameras exist to get the job done...but I'd suggest the A7 over the A7r. From all accounts the A7 plays much better with RF lenses (even the 35mms) and the front curtain makes street work oh so much easier.
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Old 11-16-2013   #10
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Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
The A7s will be be great for 50s and up

a number of 35s are good, but not all.

28s we are starting to get iffy, maybe the cron is ok on the edges by 5.6

Below 28, really good performance is not currently extant. It will be rare with RF glass.

Maybe the zm18 is OK.

If I had extensive RF collection 28 and below, I would grab a used M9 for 3500.

I don't see the M240 advantage---yet.
On the A7 the ZM18 has minor red corners, no smearing. The 12mm f5.6 has a little bit of smearing - but I guess it could be cropped down to about 15mm and still be plenty wide. The Leica 21/24mm Summilux, CV 21 1.8, Zeiss 15mm Distagon are all more or less okay, but with exaggerated falloff (this is what my friend in HK reported)

The 16-18-21 is perfect on both the A7 and A7r. I might be buying one myself - Leica apparently went with such a retrofocus design that the rear element is further away than some SLR lenses.
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Old 11-16-2013   #11
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There's really no decision to be made here. The question is: "how important is a coupled, coincident rangefinder for your shooting style?" If it fits your needs then the M-whatever is your camera. If you don't care how you focus and frame then any old mirror-less body will do the job for you, just pick whatever sensor suits you and buy that body. Why the angst?
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Old 11-16-2013   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hepcat View Post
There's really no decision to be made here. The question is: "how important is a coupled, coincident rangefinder for your shooting style?" If it fits your needs then the M-whatever is your camera. If you don't care how you focus and frame then any old mirror-less body will do the job for you, just pick whatever sensor suits you and buy that body. Why the angst?
Everybody is still trying to figure a way to make their VW Rabbit be a Ferrari.
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Old 11-16-2013   #13
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i like rangefinders and i like digital…if i had the budget then i would get a new m-e, plain & simple.
at the moment i'm wondering about the new xe-2 fuji…i don't really need it…the xe-1 seems to be working fine for me and in fact…the x100 is the most fun of all of them.

should fuji make an x100 version that is full frame or monochrome or even with a 35mm lens on it (50 fov) then that would excite me more than anything at the moment.

this obsessive desire for a cheaper body that can use leica lenses is getting to be tired old news for me. clearly leica has no interest in creating one so why should other camera makers be held to task to do so?
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Old 11-16-2013   #14
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Definitely still on the dock ... until Fuji takes a shot across the bow.
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Old 11-16-2013   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hepcat View Post
There's really no decision to be made here. The question is: "how important is a coupled, coincident rangefinder for your shooting style?" If it fits your needs then the M-whatever is your camera. If you don't care how you focus and frame then any old mirror-less body will do the job for you, just pick whatever sensor suits you and buy that body. Why the angst?
Exactly.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 11-16-2013   #16
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. . . this obsessive desire for a cheaper body that can use leica lenses is getting to be tired old news for me. clearly leica has no interest in creating one so why should other camera makers be held to task to do so?
Quite so. After all, why SHOULD Leica create one? And, indeed, is it feasible? Unless you or I (or anyone else on RFF) actually knows enough to create a cheap, top-notch full-frame body for Leica M lenses, and has the money to put their genius into physical form, maybe people should stop whining, snivelling and fantasizing.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 11-16-2013   #17
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Quote:
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Quite so. After all, why SHOULD Leica create one? And, indeed, is it feasible? Unless you or I (or anyone else on RFF) actually knows enough to create a cheap, top-notch full-frame body for Leica M lenses, and has the money to put their genius into physical form, maybe people should stop whining, snivelling and fantasizing.

Cheers,

R.
I stopped all those things above and bought one.
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Old 11-16-2013   #18
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.... maybe people should stop whining, snivelling and fantasizing.
On the internet? Now that's a fantasy.
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Old 11-16-2013   #19
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I enjoy very much using RF focusing with the M8 and the M9. It is such a great set of cameras for my type of photography. This morning we had fog in Pensacola, so I drove to (outside) the fish market where I like to take photos of Pelicans and fishing boats. The M9 with the first version 35mm Summicron was quiet, and the birds allowed me to get close to them. The M8 was OK but louder (with the Rigid Summicron.) Both Leica lenses fit the Leica cameras perfectly.
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Old 11-16-2013   #20
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On the internet? Now that's a fantasy.
Dear Mike,

Ah... fair enough.

Cheers,

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Old 11-16-2013   #21
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Quote:
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Quite so. After all, why SHOULD Leica create one? And, indeed, is it feasible? Unless you or I (or anyone else on RFF) actually knows enough to create a cheap, top-notch full-frame body for Leica M lenses, and has the money to put their genius into physical form, maybe people should stop whining, snivelling and fantasizing.

Cheers,

R.
+1000
One would think that if it was easy and cheap to make a FF digital rangefinder someone like Sony would have just bought Zeis/CV and built an Ikon D for $2500.
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Old 11-16-2013   #22
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On the A7 the ZM18 has minor red corners, no smearing. The 12mm f5.6 has a little bit of smearing - but I guess it could be cropped down to about 15mm and still be plenty wide. The Leica 21/24mm Summilux, CV 21 1.8, Zeiss 15mm Distagon are all more or less okay, but with exaggerated falloff (this is what my friend in HK reported)

The 16-18-21 is perfect on both the A7 and A7r. I might be buying one myself - Leica apparently went with such a retrofocus design that the rear element is further away than some SLR lenses.
Love to see some samples, as I own a zm18 I did just see some good 21lux samples as you describe:

http://flic.kr/s/aHsjMyGC9U
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Old 11-16-2013   #23
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I plan to purchase a full frame digital body in 2014. Why? Because I want one.

Which one?

1) M240 - RF experience, but $$$$$

2) A7R - allows use of M lenses

3) D800 - logical upgrade for my D700

The price of the M240 may put it beyond my reach, so my decision might be between the A7R v. D800.
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Old 11-16-2013   #24
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I finally had the chance to handle the Sony. The Sony is no substitute. I'll keep my M9.

I can adapt M lenses to my Pentax Q, and I have. But I certainly do not expect the results to be the same as my M9. If that's what I want, I use my M9. If you want to use M lenses on the Sony, go ahead. But it won't feel the same nor will it look same.

Enjoy your light.
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Old 11-16-2013   #25
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The Sony is no substitute.

If you want to use M lenses on the Sony, go ahead. But it won't feel the same nor will it look same.
I'm under no such delusion.
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Old 11-16-2013   #26
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+1000
One would think that if it was easy and cheap to make a FF digital rangefinder someone like Sony would have just bought Zeis/CV and built an Ikon D for $2500.
And you can bet that Mr. K over at Cosina-Voigtlander certainly would have continued the Epson RD-1 in the Bessa line, and Canon and Nikon with their prodigious capabilities would have new full-frame digi-models of the 7s and S3 respectively.
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Old 11-16-2013   #27
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Quote:
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+1000
One would think that if it was easy and cheap to make a FF digital rangefinder someone like Sony would have just bought Zeis/CV and built an Ikon D for $2500.
I don't think it's a matter of easy and cheap. Voigtländer/Cosina can make a film RF pretty cheap, and Sony can make a FF digital pretty cheap, I would imagine either company have the know-how to make it work together.

I think the problem is similar to TLRs, hardly anybody actually wants to use them.

Digital range finders are a tiny niche, probably a smaller niche *film* range finders, and one requiring vastly more investment in production and design.
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Old 11-16-2013   #28
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Not in the same boat and I won't be buying anything Sony.

But I'd thought I'd at least show some comparisons of what you'd have if you buy into the Sony compared to a Leica.






You forgot the $5000 stack of $20s next to the Sony.
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Old 11-16-2013   #29
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You forgot the $5000 stack of $20s next to the Sony.


hahaha, awesome.
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$5000 stack of $20 bills funny!
Old 11-16-2013   #30
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$5000 stack of $20 bills funny!

L Collins, that was really funny your stack of $20's! I appreciate your good humor! But there is a point: Not everyone has the same budget. When I bought my lenses in the 1990's and my M6 for $1,700 I thought that was alot of cash and it still is looking at all the bills I pay. I just want to use the lenses I already own and get the best possible image quality with them and watch my budget. Cheaper alternatives to the M240 are very welcome to people like myself. By the way, I need that stack of $20's for my taxes right now!
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Old 11-16-2013   #31
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If you want to use M lenses on the Sony, go ahead. But it won't feel the same nor will it look same.
Of course it won't because it's a different camera. LOL

Bottom line is the image.

In fact some M lenses love the Sony. The Noctilux loves it. The CV 50/1.1 and 35/1.2 love it. There are many others 50+

Others are unusable without a crop. Trouble starts at 35mm.

It's case by case, the wider you go, the more lenses are not working well on the margins. But the 21 lux looks good. as does the CV 21/1.8

the zm18 may be quite good.

But one thing that is standing out as I look at many images of M lenses on the A7r: the centers are unbelievable. Detail in the image centers seems way beyond the M9 or M240 or plain A7 with M lenses. It translates down into the smaller sizes remarkably.

Within a few weeks we'll see lots of shots and everyone can judge for themselves.

The most misleading aspect is the 100% crops. The proper comparison is not M9 100% vs A7r 100%, it's to take the same portion of the image and compare.

The sony is currently uncorrected for colorshift and vignetting, but it will have both an in camera app and there are LR plugins to address the issue.

I predict we will see superb images--award winning images---taken with the A7r and selected M lenses.

And many will prefer the handling of the Sony---but I doubt many here would, LOL
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Old 11-16-2013   #32
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Everybody is still trying to figure a way to make their VW Rabbit be a Ferrari.
The Sony a7R with three high end Zeiss lenses with modern optics and coatings. I think Sony is well passed the VW Rabbit stage.
I wouldn't mind owning a 240 but by the time it gets to the end users it will be a grandfather. Plus Sony plans 15 new lenses next year for the new full frame E mount system.
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Old 11-16-2013   #33
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My A7r is supposed to be in store this Friday coming and can't wait. Is it a substitute for a M240 for me no. If I wanted a M240 I would buy one. Would rather the A7r and that stack of $20s, happy that others want the M and that is great because if we all wanted the same then the wait would be longer.
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Old 11-16-2013   #34
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20131115-DSC00232 by cityusam01, on Flickr

Canon .95 adapted to M on A7 (not r)
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Old 11-16-2013   #35
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You forgot the $5000 stack of $20s next to the Sony.
I guess that's the entry fee if you want the real deal.

So do you have the Sony A7r ordered? And which Leica lenses do you have to put on the camera?
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Old 11-16-2013   #36
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Canon .95 adapted to M on A7 (not r)
Is that photo taken with auto white balance?
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Old 11-16-2013   #37
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I guess that's the entry fee if you want the real deal.

So do you have the Sony A7r ordered? And which Leica lenses do you have to put on the camera?
It is the real deal, but in no way should the fee be so high.

Cameras are very perishable goods - I will expect my 21mm Summilux to be worth nearly as much as it does today 5 years down the road, the amount I pay is only the inflation premium. A M type 240? I'd be lucky to get $3,500 out of it in 5 years. It's been less than that long since the M9, and now I see great conditioned M9s go for less than $4,000 all the time.

By comparison, I can buy a $2,200 A7r today and fire sell it for $1,200 in five years (approximating from the A900). That's why I buy run-down crop bodies and voigtlander RFs instead of Leica

And that is why economists are thrifty photographers...
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Old 11-16-2013   #38
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Old 11-16-2013   #39
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Here is some very interesting stuff:
http://cityusam01.blogspot.com/2013/11/sony-a7_14.html

a bunch of unusual RF glass

That's the plain A7 not R
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Old 11-16-2013   #40
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canon LTM 35/2 on A7:

Canon ltm 35mm f2-00240 by Sushicam, on Flickr

OK leica buffs:

α7R+Summicron 35mm F2 ASPH by sgbk, on Flickr

your m240 is better?
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