Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Digital Cameras > CSC : Digital Compact System Cameras -

CSC : Digital Compact System Cameras - This new category of digital Compact System Cameras with interchangeable lenses was mislabeled for a time as "Mirrorless Cameras" by those forgetting about "Mirrorless" Rangefinder cameras.  Such confusion is easily understandable, since interchangeable rangefinder cameras were only recently introduced in 1932.  hmm.    CSC or Compact System Camera is probably the best category description to date, although I am fond of the old RFF desigation of  CEVIL  indicating Compact Electronic Viewfidner Interchangeable Lens.   This forum is here at RFF because via adapters these cameras offer an inexpensive way to use rangefinder lenses on digital cameras -- in addition of just about every 35mm SLR lens you can think of.  All  offer the photo enthusiast an incredible array of adopted lenses which was not possible before these new digital formats.   This group continues to grow in popularity and new camera models! 

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

Professionally portable: Fuji XM-1 or Panasonic GM-1
Old 03-09-2014   #1
pixelatedscraps
Registered User
 
pixelatedscraps's Avatar
 
pixelatedscraps is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 40
Posts: 339
Professionally portable: Fuji XM-1 or Panasonic GM-1

After lugging my D600 and Zeiss 21/2.8, Sigma 35/1.4 and Nikon 85/1.8 across Turkey, Philippines and then across China since January, I've come to the following realisations:

A) the bag may not feel heavy in the first hour but it sure as hell does in hours 2-10+, bus ride number 2 or airport transit number 3

B) whipping out a big DSLR in sensitive areas such as Tiananmen Square or the Blue Mosque is asking for attention (or trouble)

C) I quite often reach for my big camera but find myself going for the pocketable XA4 instead

So it's time for something smaller. Not necessarily pocketable - I would like the flexibility of interchangeable lenses (why I hesitate buying a Ricoh GR despite it's obvious quality) but first and foremost I want it to be small and light. I feel we've reached the point where most CSC cameras and lenses produced these days are of sufficient quality for editorial clients (note: I mean travel editorial. Anything else and I'd use the D600). Perhaps there would be the potential to replace my entire Nikon system at a later date once the CSC lens lineups have near enough caught up to Nikon, making whatever compact CSC body I buy now remain the travel body later.

The EM-1 or XT-1 would seem like the logical choices but the problem now becomes one of budget. I travel for editorial purposes maybe twice a year and have set my budget at an initial maximum of US$1000 in the first year, and then rising as I (or the bank account) see fit after 6-9 months. $1000 to include a lens or two, plus body, which removes the new semi-pro / pro CSC bodies from the equation, likely leaving me sans EVF (which I can live with until they do catch up with optical viewfinders). So it's down to one of the entry level models: XM-1 or GM-1 - which sacrifices as little from their older brethren?

I love what Panasonic and Olympus (in particular) have done with MFT. I used to own an EP-1 when it first came out and held on long enough for the EP-3 but decided professionally, MFT was still a long way off in terms of lenses (before the 12mm, 45mm and 75mm were released). Fujifilm are legends in their own right. I am fascinated by the X lens lineup - gotta love the primes!

Fast, reliable AF and knowing my preference for prime lenses in the 18-21mm, 35mm, 50mm and 85/90mm ranges, which system would you guys recommend and why?

My first purchase would be one of the above bodies and a pancake prime to start off with - sort of an interchangeable Ricoh GR, if you will, before going for another lens.

Thoughts?
__________________
WORK
Sony A7R IV / RIII | Canon 17mm TS-E | Sony 12-24mm f/4 G | Sony-Zeiss 55mm f/1.8 | Sony G 90mm f/2.8 Macro | Sony 24-105mm f/4 G
Canon 1D X II | 16-35mm f/4L IS | 50mm f/1.2 L | 50mm f/1.8 STM | 100mm f/2.8 L Macro IS

iMac Pro 10-core, 64Gb, 1Tb, Vega 56 | Mac Pro 5,1 2x 3.33Ghz, 64Gb, 480Gb SSD PCIe, 500Gb SSD, 2x 4Tb HDD, RX 560 2Gb, USB-C, EIZO CS2730

PLAY
Mamiya 6 | 50/4 | 75/3.5
Leica M4 | 35mm f2.8 Summaron
Kodak Retina IIc | 50mm f2 Xenon
Olympus XA4
Yashica T4 Super
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-09-2014   #2
gavinlg
Registered User
 
gavinlg's Avatar
 
gavinlg is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Wellington NZ
Posts: 5,120
Fuji XE2 because it has a good built in viewfinder and is still tiny. AF is plenty fast enough, and fujis primes are second to NONE, and the x-trans sensor hits the mark for both size, performance and cost.

I wouldn't go for any of the entry models without inbuilt viewfinders. Controls are poverty level.
__________________
NO PRAISE
@gavinlagrange
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-09-2014   #3
nongfuspring
Registered User
 
nongfuspring is offline
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 705
I'd second the X-E2, if you buy grey market you can come under your 1k budget with lens. The AF isn't incredible but manual focussing is good and it's pretty small, plus the lenses are perversely good. I'm was also impressed by the GM1, but lack of manual controls, no hot shoe etc. killed it for me. if I were going for MFT then I'd get an EM5, they've come down in price quite a lot and you'll get a more usable camera than the GM1.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-09-2014   #4
GaryLH
Registered User
 
GaryLH's Avatar
 
GaryLH is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,180
At minimum any camera that is LCD only, there are two things I look for..
-- does it have a hot shoe so I can mount a ovf in my most used focal length
-- w/ the ovf in place does it have a af lock led where it can seen while using the ovf.
Because at end of the day no matter how good the LCD is.. Too bright sunlight that washes out contrast of LCD or shutter speed too slow needs an ovf ( traditional three point hold is steadier.

Plus one one the xe2.. If u are ok w/ used, they can be had for decent price now that everyone wants a xt1. Used xe1, may not be as fast in terms of af, but they are now averaging under 500 used. There are some great lens deals (Fuji rebates until end of March if I remember correctly).

In general, apsc csc around 16mp are the sweet spot of the market compared to ff in terms of price vs performance. In apsc, Fuji IMHO has the best combination of prime and zoom lenses. The m43 world, there are tons of really good prime lenses out there.. The latest generation of m43 sensors from Panasonic (em1, gx7 and gm1), the gap is closing in terms of overall iq and high iso between apsc and m43.

A lot depends on
- how big u print
- max high iso
- how much noise is ok

I would take an sd card into your local camera store and try out the ones u are interested in or rent one..

There as a time I thought about getting the gm1 as a vacation camera but for me personally I decided against it for the following reasons
- maybe too small
- no hot shoe
- too much dependency on touch screen
- mechanical shutter only good up to 1/500th, electronic beyond that (don't like the idea of occasional jello effect due to trying to take shot of moving object)

The gm1 attracted me because of that 12-32 collapsible zoom.. Compared to the 16-55 of the Fuji it is down right tiny and all reports say Panasonic did a good job on that zoom as compared to the Sony 16-50, which is just ok. In Nex line, u need to go to the Zeiss version 16-70f4 (if I remover correctly). Both the Panasonic and Fuji versions are quite a bit cheaper compared to Zeiss and are much better than the Sony 16-50. Fuji also has a professional grade 16-50 constant f2.8 weather proof zoom on the roadmap as well.

Another option is x100 or x100s w/ wcl and tcl adapters. Gives u a 35f2 fov as a base and 28 and 50 fov via the two adapters.

I would go xe1/2 or x100s or gx7 myself

Good luck
Gary
__________________
Panasonic LX100, Sigma Foveon, Fuji X and Panasonic CM1
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-09-2014   #5
eric4
Registered User
 
eric4's Avatar
 
eric4 is offline
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 54
I own an X-T1 and switched from an OM-D E-M5. So far i'm very happy that I made the switch. The ISO performance is so much better on the fuji sensor when compared to my olympus files.

I still think the om-d is a great camera but didn't like the ergonomics and felt like the system was a little too small. I needed to purchase a grip to feel comfortable in my hand which made it the same size as my x-t1.

The fuji is a very quick camera. The EVF responds much quicker, is beautiful and sharp and much better for manual focusing.

Ultimately it came down to image quality and since i'm doing more studio work/product photography, I needed a more robust file.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-09-2014   #6
back alley
IMAGES
 
back alley's Avatar
 
back alley is offline
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: true north strong & free
Posts: 49,241
you can get a mint xe1 for $400. (i did) and a couple of lenses for not much more…like the 18 & 27…small, light & sharp kit!
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-09-2014   #7
Frank Petronio
-
 
Frank Petronio's Avatar
 
Frank Petronio is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
Posts: 1,868
The thing that strikes me from all of the "What camera to save weight for travel?" questions is that the camera hardly matters.... It's the 3-5 lenses that insist on being carried. To get lighter, faster, and more involved/connected ~ graceful even ~ with the subject, try dropping the lenses. Shoot with one normal wide. Switching camera bodies saves what, a pound? But leaving all those lenses at home saves 5-10 pounds and heavy case/pack, time changing lenses, worrying about the lenses, not having the right lens mounted, etc.

To be pro, at least in my book, means not covering ever possible focal length or scenario but making some really great photos with what you've got. Ready to shoot, not dither over. Who needs another telephoto shot of the far side of the Grand Canyon or a wide angle panorama of the Great Wall? Besides somebody already did it better, with a better camera, on a tripod, 1000x before.

A real pro would have a second, identical back up body and lens in their backpack and maybe a portrait lens. If you have room for more then bring a decent tripod! Frankly the D600 with an ordinary Nikon AF 35 or 50 is an awesome kit that can out-focus any of these tiny toy cameras, if you want to focus on anything moving or alive. Which would probably be a lot more interesting than most static travel photos.... So I probably wouldn't switch to a new camera and system to have to learn, I'd work harder with what you already have.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-09-2014   #8
GaryLH
Registered User
 
GaryLH's Avatar
 
GaryLH is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,180
Frank

Given the budget, I was under the impression that he was keeping the d600 plus all those primes he has under his signature. I was thinking if he sold all that stuff, that is way more than 1000 budget. I could be wrong.

To op,

I forgot to mention... The 27 pancake lives on my xe1. In terms of the m43, the 20 pany lives on my epl 1 (ir converted). The sigma art series lenses are also really nice.

Gary
__________________
Panasonic LX100, Sigma Foveon, Fuji X and Panasonic CM1
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-10-2014   #9
pixelatedscraps
Registered User
 
pixelatedscraps's Avatar
 
pixelatedscraps is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 40
Posts: 339
Thanks for the comments guys. A few things to clarify in case my original post wasn't clear enough:

• I'm keeping my Nikon system (way too invested) for work purposes.

• I enjoy challenges, and a new camera system is hardly a burden. This is a question between the GM-1 and XM-1 and their feature sets for users of either. No NEX, no GX7, etc.

• This is all with one eye on the future. Once either lens lineups mature to the point where I'm not missing any of my workhorse lenses (XT-3 at this rate?) I'd definitely be keen to lighten the Pelican and switch.

• I hadn't considered an XE-2 because of budget but I will keep an eye on RFF classifieds for one.

• I want as close to smallest without sacrificing image quality - I can live without viewfinders for a week long holiday, the sensor and AF system is far more important to me.

XE-2 is now back on the wish list, albeit a second hand one.
__________________
WORK
Sony A7R IV / RIII | Canon 17mm TS-E | Sony 12-24mm f/4 G | Sony-Zeiss 55mm f/1.8 | Sony G 90mm f/2.8 Macro | Sony 24-105mm f/4 G
Canon 1D X II | 16-35mm f/4L IS | 50mm f/1.2 L | 50mm f/1.8 STM | 100mm f/2.8 L Macro IS

iMac Pro 10-core, 64Gb, 1Tb, Vega 56 | Mac Pro 5,1 2x 3.33Ghz, 64Gb, 480Gb SSD PCIe, 500Gb SSD, 2x 4Tb HDD, RX 560 2Gb, USB-C, EIZO CS2730

PLAY
Mamiya 6 | 50/4 | 75/3.5
Leica M4 | 35mm f2.8 Summaron
Kodak Retina IIc | 50mm f2 Xenon
Olympus XA4
Yashica T4 Super
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-10-2014   #10
Gary Sandhu
Registered User
 
Gary Sandhu's Avatar
 
Gary Sandhu is offline
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 498
1. Get a ricoh GR and use it's crop feature 28/35/50 (5.8 megapixel at 50mm)-
Or
2. Get a nikon d3200 on clearance / refurb with a kit lens
Or
3. Get a nikon 1 camera with the kit lens and call it a day
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-10-2014   #11
redisburning
-
 
redisburning is offline
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,579
A7 plus legacy lenses is about the same size and IMO the output is a lot better.

there's no replacement for displacement. or at least, I feel that way.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-10-2014   #12
pixelatedscraps
Registered User
 
pixelatedscraps's Avatar
 
pixelatedscraps is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 40
Posts: 339
I appreciate the responses guys, but this isn't really a 'what else should i get' type of question. I've discounted the GR as I want the flexibility of interchangeable lenses; the Sony A7 is clearly way out of the stated budget; but the Nikon 1 system is an interesting option - I would be worried about high ISO and prime lens lineup though.

Ideally, I would be looking to invest in one high quality compact zoom lens (24-80/100 range), a wide angle 24mm or 28mm pancake, and a fast 50mm prime in total. 3 lens kit. Not sure if Nikon 1 has that but I'll check it out now, thanks.
__________________
WORK
Sony A7R IV / RIII | Canon 17mm TS-E | Sony 12-24mm f/4 G | Sony-Zeiss 55mm f/1.8 | Sony G 90mm f/2.8 Macro | Sony 24-105mm f/4 G
Canon 1D X II | 16-35mm f/4L IS | 50mm f/1.2 L | 50mm f/1.8 STM | 100mm f/2.8 L Macro IS

iMac Pro 10-core, 64Gb, 1Tb, Vega 56 | Mac Pro 5,1 2x 3.33Ghz, 64Gb, 480Gb SSD PCIe, 500Gb SSD, 2x 4Tb HDD, RX 560 2Gb, USB-C, EIZO CS2730

PLAY
Mamiya 6 | 50/4 | 75/3.5
Leica M4 | 35mm f2.8 Summaron
Kodak Retina IIc | 50mm f2 Xenon
Olympus XA4
Yashica T4 Super
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-19-2014   #13
Archiver
Registered User
 
Archiver is offline
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,537
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelatedscraps View Post
I appreciate the responses guys, but this isn't really a 'what else should i get' type of question. I've discounted the GR as I want the flexibility of interchangeable lenses; the Sony A7 is clearly way out of the stated budget; but the Nikon 1 system is an interesting option - I would be worried about high ISO and prime lens lineup though.

Ideally, I would be looking to invest in one high quality compact zoom lens (24-80/100 range), a wide angle 24mm or 28mm pancake, and a fast 50mm prime in total. 3 lens kit. Not sure if Nikon 1 has that but I'll check it out now, thanks.
The GM1 with kit lens would seem to cover a lot of things. An additional fast prime, like the new Olympus 25/1.8, could be your second lens and keep you close to your $1000 budget.

The Nikon 1 system, particularly the new V3, looks like an interesting option, too. The 10-100 lens could be your main, and you could get the 18.5/1.8 prime as your fast 50. And if the V3 is any indication of where Nikon is aiming the 1 series, there could be some more high quality primes and other lenses in the future, too.
__________________
~Loving Every Image Captured Always~
Archiver on flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-24-2014   #14
pixelatedscraps
Registered User
 
pixelatedscraps's Avatar
 
pixelatedscraps is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 40
Posts: 339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archiver View Post
The GM1 with kit lens would seem to cover a lot of things. An additional fast prime, like the new Olympus 25/1.8, could be your second lens and keep you close to your $1000 budget. The Nikon 1 system, particularly the new V3, looks like an interesting option, too. The 10-100 lens could be your main, and you could get the 18.5/1.8 prime as your fast 50. And if the V3 is any indication of where Nikon is aiming the 1 series, there could be some more high quality primes and other lenses in the future, too.

Everything's been put on hold since purchasing a D800E but I had made the decision to go for the XM-1 and 27/2.8 pancake initially. Either way though, both cameras seem like they'd be excellent options.
__________________
WORK
Sony A7R IV / RIII | Canon 17mm TS-E | Sony 12-24mm f/4 G | Sony-Zeiss 55mm f/1.8 | Sony G 90mm f/2.8 Macro | Sony 24-105mm f/4 G
Canon 1D X II | 16-35mm f/4L IS | 50mm f/1.2 L | 50mm f/1.8 STM | 100mm f/2.8 L Macro IS

iMac Pro 10-core, 64Gb, 1Tb, Vega 56 | Mac Pro 5,1 2x 3.33Ghz, 64Gb, 480Gb SSD PCIe, 500Gb SSD, 2x 4Tb HDD, RX 560 2Gb, USB-C, EIZO CS2730

PLAY
Mamiya 6 | 50/4 | 75/3.5
Leica M4 | 35mm f2.8 Summaron
Kodak Retina IIc | 50mm f2 Xenon
Olympus XA4
Yashica T4 Super
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #15
defconfunk
n00b
 
defconfunk's Avatar
 
defconfunk is offline
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Posts: 281
I know you just said you aren't looking for new suggestions, but...
Maybe I just didn't see it in the thread, but why not consider the EM10?

Similar image quality to the EM1, has an EVF and IBIS (unlike the GM1), still small enough that it won't attract attention (it's smaller than some super-zooms and other big P&S). And price is pretty close to the GM1.

An EM10 with a collapsable zoom or pair of primes probably weighs less than the D600 body...
__________________
I have a camera. I enjoy pushing the big button.
http://mattkrull.tumblr.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #16
pixelatedscraps
Registered User
 
pixelatedscraps's Avatar
 
pixelatedscraps is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 40
Posts: 339
Going with the EM10 I felt compromised a little too much on feature set compared to the XM-1. I mean, if you're going MFT you really want what Olympus is known for: and that's the 5-axis stabiliser, new high res EVF and impressive weather sealing alongside that sensor.

As far as I can see, the XM-1 doesn't compromise in that way, and the lack of viewfinder doesn't bother me if this is strictly a travel camera. Though I may be wrong about lacking other features.
__________________
WORK
Sony A7R IV / RIII | Canon 17mm TS-E | Sony 12-24mm f/4 G | Sony-Zeiss 55mm f/1.8 | Sony G 90mm f/2.8 Macro | Sony 24-105mm f/4 G
Canon 1D X II | 16-35mm f/4L IS | 50mm f/1.2 L | 50mm f/1.8 STM | 100mm f/2.8 L Macro IS

iMac Pro 10-core, 64Gb, 1Tb, Vega 56 | Mac Pro 5,1 2x 3.33Ghz, 64Gb, 480Gb SSD PCIe, 500Gb SSD, 2x 4Tb HDD, RX 560 2Gb, USB-C, EIZO CS2730

PLAY
Mamiya 6 | 50/4 | 75/3.5
Leica M4 | 35mm f2.8 Summaron
Kodak Retina IIc | 50mm f2 Xenon
Olympus XA4
Yashica T4 Super
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #17
rolfe
Registered User
 
rolfe's Avatar
 
rolfe is offline
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Egremont, MA
Posts: 394
EOS M. It looks like an innocent P&S but has the same APS-C sensor as, I think, the Canon 7d.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-25-2014   #18
harmsr
M5 Nut
 
harmsr's Avatar
 
harmsr is offline
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 325
I second the multiple suggestions of a used Fuji X-E2. Pair it with the excellent kit lens 18-55/2.8-3.5 and you have it covered.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-26-2014   #19
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Santiago, Chile
Age: 46
Posts: 20,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by harmsr View Post
I second the multiple suggestions of a used Fuji X-E2. Pair it with the excellent kit lens 18-55/2.8-3.5 and you have it covered.
I don't think the zoom could be considered compact though.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-26-2014   #20
burancap
Registered User
 
burancap's Avatar
 
burancap is offline
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South Carolina
Age: 54
Posts: 2,193
I, for one, would love to see the OP go for the XM+27.

I had been thinking along the same lines, but then started reading about the XA and its sensor and then I became drowned in all the geartechblur.

Go for it, er, umm, the other.
__________________
Jeff
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-26-2014   #21
pixelatedscraps
Registered User
 
pixelatedscraps's Avatar
 
pixelatedscraps is offline
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 40
Posts: 339
XM-1 + 27mm for me I think. Though by the time I have enough money for a travel camera after the D800E (still need to claw back a Zeiss 100mm and possibly add the 15mm Distagon to round out the professional lens lineup) it'll probably be the XM-3.
__________________
WORK
Sony A7R IV / RIII | Canon 17mm TS-E | Sony 12-24mm f/4 G | Sony-Zeiss 55mm f/1.8 | Sony G 90mm f/2.8 Macro | Sony 24-105mm f/4 G
Canon 1D X II | 16-35mm f/4L IS | 50mm f/1.2 L | 50mm f/1.8 STM | 100mm f/2.8 L Macro IS

iMac Pro 10-core, 64Gb, 1Tb, Vega 56 | Mac Pro 5,1 2x 3.33Ghz, 64Gb, 480Gb SSD PCIe, 500Gb SSD, 2x 4Tb HDD, RX 560 2Gb, USB-C, EIZO CS2730

PLAY
Mamiya 6 | 50/4 | 75/3.5
Leica M4 | 35mm f2.8 Summaron
Kodak Retina IIc | 50mm f2 Xenon
Olympus XA4
Yashica T4 Super
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 13:29.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.