Going meterless on film?
Old 02-20-2019   #1
scautez
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Going meterless on film?

Hi All,

For a while I have been using my Leica M2 with the Voigtlander VC Meter II sitting comfortably in the cold shoe. The batteries were dying recently, and I took the opportunity to start using the camera without the meter attached. I must say I have found the experience quite liberating, and also sharpens the sunny 16 skills. It also saves the time of setting the dials on the meter and transposing to the camera body. I was wondering if other people find the experience of not using a meter more enjoyable that having it available?
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Old 02-20-2019   #2
Michael I.
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I shoot 80% of my bw film unmetered, for years now. It's pretty fun, and hardly is an issue
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Old 02-20-2019   #3
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Color negative film is so forgiving that sunny 16 will do the job if you apply a bit of skill, and it's so great not to be a slave to the meter readout Did a lot of that sort of thing with my Nikon F and it's great fun.
I have also found that putting my F80 onto P mode and treating it like a point and shoot is fun too.
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Old 02-20-2019   #4
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count me in!

last few days I've been testing a new-to-me FED2 all meterless, I actually find it a bit hard with 400 ISO film in the rainy weather here for some reason but not so much that I wished I was metering (RF+composition+looking for the next shot while not taking too long a break from work is about the right fun/time balance at the mo).

shot some test rolls with two TLRs early last year and absolutely loved no-meter sunny-16-ing with the 100 ISO film I had*, so much so that I shot my daughter's first few months about 50% meterless on an OM1 (4,2,&100 ISO) [the lightmeter in the camera plays up and I have a weincell in it anyway so arguably "for the love of meterless" was the enabler of any of that photography, including in the hospital the day she was born].

I use the meter in my OM40 by dint of it being hard to ignore (shutter-half-press=meter LEDs in VF) and a handheld for LF predominantly as a crutch because I'm conscious of my inexperience in that format and there's a lot else going on so my cognitive load is high.

I've shot a lot of MF with a Mamiya 645, all metered since I bought the metered prism, but none since my "road to Da-meterless" conversion. I always regarded the (considerable) bulk of the metered prism vs unmetered as a substantial hinderance on that camera, as it makes an already big, heavy lump even more unappealing to take walkies (and harder to fit in a modest sized bag) and also complicates lens changes, but worth it for the convenience and accuracy of the built in system. Now I kinda wish I hadn't given away the meterless prism... though at least as with the OM40 the camera won't work without a battery anyway so...

Meterless for mechanical cameras? Dunno if I'd sign that manifesto but I have forgotten that most photographers see "no built-in meter" as a dealbreaker on non-collectible cameras on several occasions recently... so I may be drifting slowly toward meterless evangelism


*one was a rolleiflex with the sunny 16 table on the back, so I was kinda cheating

Last edited by markbakovic : 02-20-2019 at 23:51. Reason: line breaks
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Old 02-20-2019   #5
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I was estimating far better without a meter, especially as uncoupled meters lead to numerous delays. But then I bought a pair of glasses with coatings so reactive that I cannot actually perceive changes in light levels with my eyes, and find them impossible to judge what levels are out there.

They also make focussing on large format next to impossible. I could shoot Specsavers.
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Old 02-21-2019   #6
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Sounds like you metered for every shot. That's not necessary. Even if you don't feel confident estimating exposure, just keep that meter in your pocket and only use it when the lighting changes or gets difficult. I've resolved to go back to metering more when the light is lower as I've recently been too conservative and got some very dense negatives that take ages to print.
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Old 02-21-2019   #7
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I went on Boston-Vermont one week trip in December. M4-2, J3, K400.
No lightmeter. All frames were ok, except those taken on landing in Toronto at night with lights turned off . Visible, but dark.

I quit from metering on the street long time ago. I would meter at beginning, sun and shadow sides of the street and this is it.
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Old 02-21-2019   #8
Ambro51
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I’ll meter the overall light conditions for the ISO film I’m using, and go from there without the meter.
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Old 02-21-2019   #9
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Metering without a camera is a good way to hone the skills. Every now and then when you are outside, guess the exposure for prevailing light, then check with your meter or phone app. If you do that enough, You will be able to gauge the setting to within a stop in no time, in a variety of conditions, and for negative film, that’s close enough. Now that everybody has a phone with them most of the time, it’s easy to do anytime. Not everybody needs this, but it can’t hurt.
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Old 02-21-2019   #10
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I shot for years without a meter with a Holga, Leica M4-P, Rolleicord V etc.

Mostly this was black and white film but sometimes negative and even slide film.

You get really good at it and it ceases to be much of an issue. You sort of develop your own sense of how you like your photos to come out, particularly if you are also developing them. The combo worked best for me with home developed Tri-X.

The only exception for me was nighttime where I was useless.

One thing is that it makes you question the metering of cameras with built in meters and often either adjust the exposure comp or use it on manual as you get used to your own sense of light and use the meter more as a guide than a gospel.
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Old 02-21-2019   #11
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With film, I like to meter overall scenes, then look at shadows and highlights. From there I can set exposures. I want to get my Minolta spot meter going again. It could be much more useful because I could do a quick survey of a scene and decide how to set an exposure. I am not a big fan of in-camera metering because I know that filter factors do not meter directly, and I am mainly shooting B&W with film. I have one situation where I adapt DKL lenses to M42 where I need an in-camera meter because I really do not know what aperture I am at (the adapter scale is generalized), but then I have no filters for those lenses, and one of them has no easy means of adding a filter (maybe I can find a push-on).
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Old 02-21-2019   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpingr1 View Post
Every now and then when you are outside, guess the exposure for prevailing light, then check with your meter or phone app.
Exactly. In bright sunny daylight, I use Sunny 16, but I carry a handheld meter for those conditions where the light is less than full sun. It helps to guess beforehand: Is it one stop off? Three stops? Four? If you can do it reasonably accurately, its a valuable skill.
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Old 02-21-2019   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambro51 View Post
Iíll meter the overall light conditions for the ISO film Iím using, and go from there without the meter.
Thatís pretty much my approach too. Occasionally Iíll whip out the meter to double check the light. Works well for both B&W and C41.
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Old 02-21-2019   #14
mpaniagua
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Go with Sunny 16 on Leicas LTM and on Rolleiflex's.

Normally use the lightmeter when shooting indoors. Totally suck at reading the light indoors so need to rely on meter or use a flash.

Agree, going meter is quite refreshing and fun. I think it get you more in contact with your pictures.

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Old 02-21-2019   #15
Ambro51
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The Gossen Pilot my Wife gave me for Christmas about 40 years ago has never needed to be replaced. It’s been through a Lot of different camera love affairs :-)
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Old 02-21-2019   #16
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Daylight is easy. Indoor dark lit tricky.

Get a Kodak Pocket Photo Guide book and study the recommendations. It addresses exposure based on scene types. Once you "get" it, and build some experience from doing it, working without a meter is very easy.

G
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Old 02-21-2019   #17
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It's quite liberating to shoot without being bound to in-camera metering. I shoot with everything from my M3's to medium and large format cameras without scrupulously metering every frame. I do carry a handheld incident meter which I consult from time to time, but I just tend to take a few readings to check what the brightest highlights and darkest shadows are and then I put the meter away and just shoot, making adjustments as needed by eye. If the light changes dramatically and I have time I will pull out the meter and check again, but most of the time I can get it right on my own. Experience is a great teacher, and negative film is pretty forgiving. Very often I shoot first, then check with my meter just to confirm I exposed correctly.

When I was in school and in my early days assisting, we joked about "smelling the light". We'd play a game where we would carry our meters and try to guess the readings for a given ISO, then check to see how close we were. You'd be surprised how quickly you develop a sense for this - especially if you tend to stick to one speed. Most photographers who start to do this wonder why they waited so long, and you probably won't want to go back to being crazy about carefully TTL metering each shot. Have fun!
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Old 02-21-2019   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by css9450 View Post
Exactly. In bright sunny daylight, I use Sunny 16, but I carry a handheld meter for those conditions where the light is less than full sun. It helps to guess beforehand: Is it one stop off? Three stops? Four? If you can do it reasonably accurately, its a valuable skill.
^^^

I think this is how most of us operate. At least this is what I do.

I kind of like the little game of guessing exposure and then checking how close I got. Its a fantastic way to train your "inner meter" and reinforce it -- making permanent neural pathways in your brain.
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Old 02-21-2019   #19
Ambro51
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I have a book with a chapter written by Ansel Adams with pages on how to interpret and religiously use the Weston meter.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ But I guess that’s what made him “Ansel Adams” and we're just schmucks with a camera. ;-)
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Old 02-21-2019   #20
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I never regret using a meter, but I sometimes regret not using one.
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Old 02-21-2019   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scautez View Post
Hi All,

For a while I have been using my Leica M2 with the Voigtlander VC Meter II sitting comfortably in the cold shoe. The batteries were dying recently, and I took the opportunity to start using the camera without the meter attached. I must say I have found the experience quite liberating, and also sharpens the sunny 16 skills. It also saves the time of setting the dials on the meter and transposing to the camera body. I was wondering if other people find the experience of not using a meter more enjoyable that having it available?
I agree it is liberating. But I seldom went "full commando" when I shot film (I seldom do these days) and instead I kept a meter in my pocket just in case. I usually only used it at the beginning of the shoot then thereafter based all my subsequent shooting on my estimate of how the present ambient lighting matched the original reading. (e.g. if I stepped into shadow I opened up a stop, if it was deep shadow, maybe two stops etc).

It seldom failed and felt great.

Truth is since I was using incident lighting not reflected light readings from the subject(s) it is seldom necessary to change exposure much if at all, once you are confident of how to set the camera for the first shot - light seldom changes by more than a stop or so in given conditions on any given day.
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Old 02-21-2019   #22
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I have the my light meter app on my iPhone so wether I use it or not itís always available.
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Old 02-21-2019   #23
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As I've accumulated more cameras without meters, it was much quicker to just wing it than having to check a hand held every so often. Like CharlesDAMorgan I had trouble at first because of my eyeglasses, but I finally took them off while shooting so I could see the light and its subtle changes much better. I have diopters for most of my cameras now, at least the ones that are more critical in need. Seasonal adjustments took more getting used to, and time of day, but now I do it almost automatically.

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Old 02-21-2019   #24
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Lots of great suggestions in this thread for someone like me who has been trying to figure out how free myself a bit more from the light meter. Nice!
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Old 02-21-2019   #25
scautez
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Yes, thank you everyone for your comments. Very interesting. I sometimes ponder the idea of an analogue hand held meter, but will give the meterless option a go for a while.
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Old 02-22-2019   #26
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A long long time ago, the 1950's, I had an exposure calculator and used it. After a while I found I could guess the answer and stopped using it. You can still find these calculators about; often very cheaply like the Kodak ones or free like this one:-
http://www.squit.co.uk/photo/exposurecalc.html

FWIW I've several in the heap from 1915 onwards, some English, some German, some Russian* and so on. Unlike the funny 16 rule they allow for the light varying over the year and the subject matter and much more. And as a simple training aid they have no equal.

I can put up some photos if anyone is that interested.

Regards, David

* The USSR ones even allow for the latitude of the photographer. Better than relying on the latitude of the film...
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Old 02-22-2019   #27
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Just took a wander with the Leica III and estimated the exposures (which I checked on the phone lightmeter - all matched), so I'll see how they turn out.
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Old 02-22-2019   #28
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Confusing...you have meter less cameras...guess the light...and then check your guesswork on your mobile phone. I prefer to have the meter inside the camera. A lot less hassle.
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Old 02-22-2019   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scautez View Post
I was wondering if other people find the experience of not using a meter more enjoyable that having it available?
None of my large format or medium format film cameras have built-in light meters. Half of my 35mm film cameras either do not have a built-in light meter or have a non-functional built-in light meter.

I routinely shoot with a hand-held light meter or use the Sunny 16 Exposure Guideline.

I cannot say that shooting without a light meter is more enjoyable but I can say that when I forgot to pack my light meter for an out-of-town outdoor wedding, I was glad I had learned to shoot without a meter.
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Old 02-22-2019   #30
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If I’m using a camera with a meter I’ll take advantage of it but fewer than half of my cameras are metered. When I carry an unmetered camera I seldom bring a handheld meter along. There’s one in my cellphone, but that often stays in my pocket.

I do pretty well with sunny 16. I have my good days and bad days (cloudy/overcast and dusk can be especially tricky) but I mostly shoot black and white so I usually have enough latitude to not have problems and, yes, I do find it liberating to just think about shooting and not worry too much about meter readings.
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Old 02-22-2019   #31
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Greg---what light meter app do you have on your phone?
Thanks---
Paul
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Old 02-22-2019   #32
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Nothing wrong with metered cameras — I have a bunch. When the camera I’m carrying has a meter, I use it. But most of my favorite cameras to use when I’m walking around don’t have them. Plus, I don’t consider evaluating exposure by eye as guesswork. When you do it all the time and get consistently good negatives, then it’s just another skill that makes photography fun. Anyway, it’s more fun for me. Others’ footage may vary.
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Old 02-22-2019   #33
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I've had my M2 for a few months now, and a meterless F before that (also an FM with broken meter). I'm still not 100% comfortable shooting meterless all the time, so I still use my M6 a lot, but I have noticed if i'm out on a "photowalk" I can shoot faster with the M2 by just handheld metering every once and a while and adjusting for shadows when necessary, whereas with the M6, i'll meter and adjust every time I bring it to my eye, which seems to take more time.
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Old 02-22-2019   #34
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I enjoy having my Sekonic L408 around.

Most times I pack it it never comes out...

When I don’t pack it, I find a reason to need it...

By far the best and longest lived purchase I’ve made in photography.
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Old 02-22-2019   #35
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Hello all, Iím new to the forum. This is my first comment post (albeit my third try and counting, Iím a bit digitally challenged).

I too have benefitted from liberating an older Leica from a meter perched atop. Like others I often use an incident meter to gage the exposure range, especially in high contrast light, but my most useful tool has been a notebook. Keeping a photographic diary allows me to assess my results against my expectations. I note the season, time of day, position of the sun, colour of the sky, clouds... that sort of thing and of course the film and exposures. Itís taught me a great deal. I highly recommend taking notes.

Greg

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Old 02-22-2019   #36
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Welcome to the RFF community!



My newest favorite camera happens to be a Leica I C standardized, it lacks meter and rangefinder so recently for me it is meter-less and rangefinder-less. Quite liberating experience and the results are not so bad.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Maslak View Post
Hello all, Iím new to the forum. This is my first comment post (albeit my third try and counting, Iím a bit digitally challenged).

I too have benefitted from liberating an older Leica from a meter perched atop. Like others I often use an incident meter to gage the exposure range, especially in high contrast light, but my most useful tool has been a notebook. Keeping a photographic diary allows me to assess my results against my expectations. I note the season, time of day, position of the sun, colour of the sky, clouds... that sort of thing and of course the film and exposures. Itís taught me a great deal. I highly recommend taking notes.

Greg

Now if only I can make my gallery post bigger,I be all set... cheers
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Old 02-26-2019   #37
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I can shoot meterless but why?
When i printed in darkroom,it was possible to expose (original) Tri-X,
at ASA (ISO) 25 ,50,100,200, 400,800,1200,1600..
Various contrasts but printable..
Scanning need a negative that "scanner" accepts. sigh!
One must be more accurate.
Living in northern latitudes is a real problem, for me!
Winter light varies to poor to none..
I meter.
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Old 02-26-2019   #38
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If my camera has automation, I use it, if not I use Sunny 16. I get just as many duds with guessing the exposure as I do letting the camera work it out after about 2 years of shooting meterless. It doesn't take long to get a grasp of it. The only time I struggle is at sunrise and sunset.

At night I shoot manual regardless of the camera. Stick it on 1/30th and wide open and don't worry about it (1/15th for a slow lens TLR).
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Old 02-26-2019   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leicapixie View Post
I can shoot meterless but why?

Its a handy skill to have, even if only for a backup. Ever go out with an old camera with no meter, only to get to wherever you're going and discover you left your meter (handheld, phone, whatever) at home on the kitchen counter? I have.
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Old 02-26-2019   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leicapixie View Post
I can shoot meterless but why?
Sometimes you do not have time to meter.

As to the original post, just do not be afraid to fail. You will be fine.
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