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Cameras in the Movies / TV / Media If you are a photographer, it's difficult not to appreciate movies too. In this forum you can discuss movies, as well as the cameras used in them. What camera used in what film / TV show etc has long been a topic of discussion at RFF. Whether the Exakta and 400mm Kilfitt lens in Hitchcock's Rear Window or the Nikons in Eastwood's Bridges of Madison County, cameras are tools which reflect the time and technology of the film.

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Old 09-04-2015   #41
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GeorgeH wrote:

"What would you do, re-draw the map of the world?"

Well, that is exactly what the British and French did in the immediate aftermath of the First World War.

They literally drew lines in the sands without a second thought to national, religious or racial concerns.

Done with little or no consultation with the Arabs, Palestinians, Kurds etc.

Iraq, Jordan and Palestine British sphere of influence. Lebanon and Syria the French sphere of influence.
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Old 09-04-2015   #42
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Talking

No axe to grind.

Just setting history straight.
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Old 09-04-2015   #43
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Good for you, enjoy Sharia.
Mind your own grinding. Your axe seems rather large.
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Old 09-04-2015   #44
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Sure, emotions inspired by powerful images can be used to manipulate. These heart-rending images did the opposite - they stopped the vile crescendo of xenophobic rhetoric in the British press (specially the Europhobic usual suspects), using the word "migrant", variously compared to a swarm, a tide or a plague, to dehumanize and vilify refugees and asylum-seekers.

I fear that your focus is misdirected . Most of the opposition has come from the former communist block countries and indeed migrants are more likely to be attacked in the former east Germany rather than anywhere else.

"Europe" has consistently lacked a cohesive foreign policy in respect to these areas of conflict preferring to sit on its hands and wait for the United States to do something.

It is now the victim of its own botched mis judgements and is looking around for someone to blame.
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Old 09-04-2015   #45
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There is a reason people take these incredibly difficult, dangerous ways to get to Europe.

It would be much easier and cheaper just to get an airplane ticket. Instead, they pay three or more times the price of that ticket to risk drowning in the mediterranean. Why?

Because Europe has devolved the task of deciding who is a refugee to the airline operators. Carriers can be held liable for the repatriation of anyone who might not be a bona fide refugee. It's no good buying a ticket, they won't let you on the plane, without full paperwork.
That is why people allow themselves to be stacked like sardines in rickety boats : once you are in, you can apply for refugee status, but first you have to get in. But the Airlines won't let you fly, because Europe doesn't allow them to do so.

And that is only one reason why Europe is complicit in this crisis.

cheers
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Old 09-04-2015   #46
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Well, I suppose if I was in Brussels I could always trade my axe in for a Kalashnikov.
I dont understand. What has Brussels got to do with kalashnikovs? You might find a chocolate gun though. Or a novelty lighter.

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My concern over this mass movement of people and ideology is in direct proportion to the increased likelihood that a terrorist attack will take place in my city. I don't place the lives of anyone above those of my loved ones, political correctness be damned.
Good luck out there. Sorry I'm not among them.
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Old 09-04-2015   #47
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The weapons used in the Charlie Hebdo and Thalys attacks were sourced in Brussels.
Yeah, you can find them at knock-out prices on the weekly market. And then we get drunk, dance in the streets and shoot off our guns. Glaziers are doing blazing business.
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Old 09-04-2015   #48
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I gather you don't want to know, but here is one mention in the New York Times, others are available if you choose to look.



http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/23/wo...n-suspect.html
What am I still doing here? George, you're making me shiver! All of a sudden I'm surrounded by kalashnikov wielding devils. Aargh, I'm requesting refugee status ! Wait, but, the refugees are trying to get here. Idiots. Don't they know its straight out of the frying pan, into the fire?

Please keep me updated on the situation in Brussels, I'd like to know what kind of armour to choose next time I get milk.
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Old 09-04-2015   #49
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Let's all meet back here in a year to discuss how this migration worked out.
Reminder: We are ALL somewhere because of some migration.

All of us.
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Old 09-04-2015   #50
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Lukitas, thank you for presenting such an even-keeled response. Clearly the two security analysts quoted in the New York Times and the Telegraph articles are wrong because you live in a city that is gun-free.

I would ask that you take pity on those of us who aren't as brave. We mortals fear death.
Me, brave? I wish. I don't have to be brave, Belgium is a reasonably civilised place. Yes, there are criminals. Small fry : muggers, robbers, pimps and dealers. And there are a few extremists. Most of those prefer a brown shirt over a brown skin. And if you're ready to socialise with very scary people, you may find a way to obtain weapons. And most of those people are being watched. All this is true for most civilised countries.
Belgians make sandwiches for the kids to take to school, play cards on the train to work, drink beer and cheer soccer on tv. We're worried about our pensions, but when the town centre is made car-free, we dance in the streets. Our politicians are making severe noises about not giving the refugees a free ride, and not being able to house them, and that they'll have to work for their sustenance. Meanwhile, belgians are organising food raffles, finding beds and roofs for the families coming in.

We don't worry about kalashnikovs too much though. Not many around.
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Old 09-04-2015   #51
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This is not as yet confirmed but news is breaking that the family in question had been settled in Turkey for three years.
The aunt living in Canada said the family fled from Kobane, Syria to Turkey some time after ISIS attacked and laid siege to the city. That siege lasted six months starting about a year ago and left the city in ruins. Nothing to return to.

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What I don`t understand is why they don`t seek refuge in the wealthy Gulf States.
Because the Gulf States won't let them in.
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Old 09-05-2015   #52
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There is a reason people take these incredibly difficult, dangerous ways to get to Europe....
...But the Airlines won't let you fly, because Europe doesn't allow them to do so.
And that is only one reason why Europe is complicit in this crisis.
cheers
..if reaching via airplane only was the only impossible way to reach Europe: Syrians have the right to apply for the status of a refuge inside Europe, however it is illegal for them to travel Europe! - For that they would need a EU visa in their passport, something a refugee won't have.
A deceitful double deal, a cynic reality that forces the refugees into costly, inhuman and deadly dangers
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Old 09-05-2015   #53
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Let's all meet back here in a year to discuss how this migration worked out.
I tend to agree with George. How is it possible to know who is a refugee and a ISIS migrant?. For sure ISIS members are in there.
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Old 09-05-2015   #54
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I tend to agree with George. How is it possible to know who is a refugee and a ISIS migrant?. For sure ISIS members are in there.
Actually this is extremely unlikely. As part of ISIS ideology they believe the key battle they will face will be located in Dabiq (a town in Syria, near Turkey) as first stage of the apocalypse. ISIS wants to expand their geographic territory, but otherwise they are literally waiting for the a Western coalition to engage them in Dabiq which is why international ISIS supporters are only moving to Syria rather than from it. It's a mistake to think that ISIS is at all like Al Queda - they're a medieval-style military faction led by a Caliphate, technically not a terrorist organisation. Aside from recruitment they don't operate internationally. For more information: http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/marka...-syria-mccants

The Syrian refugees here are people not so different from us in first world countries. Up until recently Syria was a country that enjoyed high levels of education, a well developed economy, and economic/political integration internationally. To a country in the right situation, an influx of skilled pre-educated workers is an economic boon, not a burden. Ironically Hungary as an economically stilted nation with low general education levels would do well to accept them strategically, but it seems the government are too racist to do so.

In any case, I think this topic has drifted far off course and any discussion amid such deep seated emotions is pointless.
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Old 09-05-2015   #55
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Still, it would have been nice to discuss the impact, merits and results of the image here, instead of world politics. It's out of whack, I'm reading the political analysis on a photography forum and the photographic discourse on Facebook
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Old 09-05-2015   #56
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Still, it would have been nice to discuss the impact, merits and results of the image here, instead of world politics. It's out of whack, I'm reading the political analysis on a photography forum and the photographic discourse on Facebook
Yes... ^THIS!^
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Old 09-05-2015   #57
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Still, it would have been nice to discuss the impact, merits and results of the image here, instead of world politics.
Very little I would imagine apart from the initial great sadness.
For months now we`ve been subjected to images showing the most cruel and appalling violence committed by the Islamic State and very little has been done about it.
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Old 09-05-2015   #58
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The problem is the odds of it happening go from "extremely unlikely" to 100% in a flash. Terry isn't going to give you a pass because you're enlightened. If you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, you're going to go bye-bye along with the other victims. No amount of deflection is going to alter that.
Well, if we're talking odds, here are the odds of a Western European being killed in a terrorist attack of any sort: 1:25,000,000.

In Western Europe you're more likely to be killed by a right wing extremist organisation terrorist attack than by Muslim extremists. Ironically the worst terror attack in Europe's recent history was the Brevik massacre which was driven by anti-muslim xenophobia/racism.

In the U.S. (since you're American) in the year of the Boston bombing, that year you were more likely to be killed by a child of under 3 wielding a handgun than by terrorists. You were more likely to be killed by your own furniture than by terrorists.



Will immigration increase the risk of terrorism? Possibly, but even if it went up by a factor of ten you'd still be more than twice as likely to be killed by a lighting strike.

But please, don't let statistics interrupt your xenophobic hysteria. For me, I'll continue to take my chances amongst my Muslim neighbours.
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Old 09-05-2015   #59
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Your little outburst was obviously a knee-jerk reaction. Try not to be so insulting next time.
beautiful. Next time I find a terrorist hiding behind a corner, I'll jerk my knee.
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Old 09-05-2015   #60
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I'm a feminized milquetoast, and little to boot. Yay.

Try not to be so insulting next time you have a knee-jerk reaction.
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Old 09-05-2015   #61
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Reminder: We are ALL somewhere because of some migration.

All of us.
+1

I am surprise no one said "No I am not" already.
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Old 09-05-2015   #62
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I have no doubt but how does that absolve them of any responsibility .
It does not at all, specially since a good part of ISIS/ISIL/Daech seed funding comes from sympathizers in Saudi Arabia. I was just pointing out the evil they do, and how pointless it is to expect any humanity or shame from the Al-Saud family. I'm with Ken Livingstone on that one.

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But before I go, Keith mentioned the photo by Nick regarding the napalm attack, etc. Can anyone really define that or any single photo that had the most impact on the eventual end of the Vietnam war? I recall numerous other photos as well but being at a young age, Nick's image was the most riveting for me.
There is also the famous photo "General Nguyen Ngoc Loan executing a Viet Cong prisoner in Saigon" by Eddie Adams.

http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/0...r-be-the-same/



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"Europe" has consistently lacked a cohesive foreign policy in respect to these areas of conflict preferring to sit on its hands and wait for the United States to do something.

It is now the victim of its own botched mis judgements and is looking around for someone to blame.
To paraphrase Metternich, it is a geographic entity, not a political one. That said, while Europe bears responsibility for the mess in Libya (specially France and the UK), it bears none for the situation in Syria, where the civil war started due to the bloody repression of the Arab Spring there by Asad's regime, and the flames were fanned by Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia and to a lesser extent Turkey. Even US involvement is minimal for a change.

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Because the Gulf States won't let them in.
Yep, Funny how the country with the most refugees is the non-Arab one. Even Israel is planning for an influx of Druze refugees from Syria, even though it is formally still at war with Syria.

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I am surprise no one said "No I am not" already.
Kenyans living in the Rift Valley, perhaps.
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Old 09-05-2015   #63
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Still, it would have been nice to discuss the impact, merits and results of the image here, instead of world politics. It's out of whack, I'm reading the political analysis on a photography forum and the photographic discourse on Facebook


Plus one Johan!

As the OP of this thread all I can say is business as usual at RFF. The thread was totally derailed by a pissing contest that really amounted to nothing and one of the protagonists has now deleted all his posts leaving us with the usual mish mash of confusion in a thread that actually had some meaning for me.

Well done guys!
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Old 09-06-2015   #64
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I have never understood why someone would delete their posts or block another member.
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Old 09-06-2015   #65
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Plus one Johan!

As the OP of this thread all I can say is business as usual at RFF. The thread was totally derailed by a pissing contest that really amounted to nothing and one of the protagonists has now deleted all his posts leaving us with the usual mish mash of confusion in a thread that actually had some meaning for me.

Well done guys!
Back on my original point, I think the fact that no follow-up discussion in this thread on the de-sensitization of humans in regard to suffering points to just that. Politics seems to be much more interesting to discuss than the suffering of fellow humans, even children.

It is sad that a group of photographers who have the power of photography at their disposal, cannot discuss crimes against humanity let alone actually do something about it. The power of an image, like the power of the pen (see the RFF fountain pen thread) is readily available to each of us but it depends on the hearts and minds of those to whom it was bestowed.
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Old 09-06-2015   #66
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This one got my attention, plus many other thoughts and emotions not worth writing.

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Old 09-06-2015   #67
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Vincenzo, yes... and the movie "The Bang Bang Club" gives a great backstory behind that image without being a political pissing match.
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Old 09-06-2015   #68
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This image did unfortunately change nothing, all it created was some public outrage that is getting ignored by the people in power.

But since this is a photography forum back to the image. It is rather weak image imo the narritive outside the photograph gave it its power. Without the knowledge that Soldier carried a 3 year old refugee it would have no power at all. In this case the written/ spoken word has the power and the image is mere illustration.
The image of the Vulture and the child is a much better image imo it tells a story and doesn't need the text.
Adams Picture illustrates the violence of the war in a very graphic way this is something that is lacking in the photo of the drowned refugee child. The vietnamese Girl is again a much more powerful image you have the soldier that signify war you have the emotion from the girl and the boy and another very importan thing the (innocent) girl is naked which means vunerable and you ask yourself why is she naked and how can I help/protect her.
The refugee photography is I am sorry to say a puffed up propanda piece (propaganda can be a good thing) that wouldn't stand on it's own.

Also to the op the image is used in a political way so showing it is already a political statement and it's only logical that a political discussion will follow. I also understand some posters from say Hungary being less that happy about the whole thing because they constantly hear how Hungary treast people like the Nazis did and those comments mostly come from countries that took very little to no refugees and who talk about great gestures when they take 3700 or 5000 refugees compared to the 45 000 in Hungary. Also those pointing their fingers at countries like Hungary seem to forget the socio economic situation of those countries (Greece, Hungary, Macedonia,Serbia, Turkey etc....)
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Old 09-06-2015   #69
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Forgot to say thank you for starting the thread.
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Old 09-06-2015   #70
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The interesting thing about pointing a finger, is everytime one does, there are three fingers on the same pointing back at you!
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Old 09-06-2015   #71
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Vincenzo, yes... and the movie "The Bang Bang Club" gives a great backstory behind that image without being a political pissing match.
Absolutely, and a great movie. Cheers.
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Old 09-06-2015   #72
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Actually this is extremely unlikely.
Actually there are ISIS members in many countries (that are not involved), including the countries I lives(lived) in, like China and Sweden.

Here is an interview of a Swedish man who is a member of ISIS.

https://news.vice.com/article/smorga...ngry-young-men

Several months ago there were some northwestern Chinese who dreamed of having lots of wives and gold smuggled themselves to join ISIS. Later they were mistreated in the training camp and were looked down upon by ISIS simply because they are ethnically Uighur. Having found that they couldn't get lots of wives and gold, they fled from ISIS to Turkey, surrendered themselves to authority, and Turks sent them back to China. I almost find this story funny.
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Old 09-06-2015   #73
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Because the Gulf States won't let them in.
And who in their right mind would venture from one dictatorship to another?

People flee tyranny.
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Old 09-06-2015   #74
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Very little I would imagine apart from the initial great sadness.
For months now we`ve been subjected to images showing the most cruel and appalling violence committed by the Islamic State and very little has been done about it.
What "we" are doing about it is a weird, half-hearted bombing campaign costs about US$70 million per day.
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Old 09-06-2015   #75
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I think the image Keith posted is very powerful, but I wish the major news publishers had used this image of the same policeman and little boy:

Warning, Very Graphic Image

I think the impact of this second image is closer to the work of Nick Ut and others during Vietnam. I find the image Keith posted to be "watered down" and "sanitized" as to not offend the delicate sensibilities of the nobility.

Whether any of it will change the situation, hard to say. Whether it was in response to the Vatican seeing the image or not, in the last day the Pope has come out and encouraged every Catholic Parish in Europe to adopt one Syrian Refuge Family. That would certainly help.
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Old 09-07-2015   #76
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Actually there are ISIS members in many countries (that are not involved), including the countries I lives(lived) in, like China and Sweden.
Yes, my point is that their goal is to go to Syria, not to leave it (as your Vice story points out). All the ISIS members that live internationally either want to go to Syria or try and help the cause by fundraising or recruitment. Most governments actually do their best to prevent recruits from leaving their country.

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Still, it would have been nice to discuss the impact, merits and results of the image here, instead of world politics. It's out of whack, I'm reading the political analysis on a photography forum and the photographic discourse on Facebook
You'd like to talk about the merits and results of this photograph of a drowned refugee without talking about world politics? It's precisely the power of images that allow them to produce discourse and reflection - this is the true value of photography. The axe grinding, upset people, ideological barbs, fear, and suspicion that the posting of this image on RFF has brought out of the forum I think is testament to the potency of this image and its ability to touch so many nerves.
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Old 09-07-2015   #77
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. . . You'd like to talk about the merits and results of this photograph of a drowned refugee without talking about world politics? It's precisely the power of images that allow them to produce discourse and reflection - this is the true value of photography. The axe grinding, upset people, ideological barbs, fear, and suspicion that the posting of this image on RFF has brought out of the forum I think is testament to the potency of this image and its ability to touch so many nerves.
Nah... The true value of photography is cats and coffee cups and whether the Version 3 Summicron is better than Version 4.

But to return to the actual question, no, I don't think either picture (the boy lying face down in the water or his being lifted up by the policeman) has the same impact as Nick Ut's picture of Kim Phuc, and principally for photographic reasons. The Nick Ut picture is incredibly dramatic and full of action. The pictures of Aylan are elegiac and tranquil: in a horrible way, it's true, but still elegiac and tranquil. Also, you could fake either of them (we know they weren't faked, but that's beside the point). You couldn't easily fake the Nick Ut picture.

The pictures of Aylan will (D.V.) have a good deal of impact, waking people up; but I doubt they will have the lasting power of the picture of Kim, and I am less than convinced that they have the same shock value.

This is not to diminish either the photographer or the tragedy. Rather, it is to illustrate the inadequacy of a purely photographic analysis.

R.
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Old 09-07-2015   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Nah... The true value of photography is cats and coffee cups and whether the Version 3 Summicron is better than Version 4.

But to return to the actual question, no, I don't think either picture (the boy lying face down in the water or his being lifted up by the policeman) has the same impact as Nick Ut's picture of Kim Phuc, and principally for photographic reasons. The Nick Ut picture is incredibly dramatic and full of action. The pictures of Aylan are elegiac and tranquil: in a horrible way, it's true, but still elegiac and tranquil. Also, you could fake either of them (we know they weren't faked, but that's beside the point). You couldn't easily fake the Nick Ut picture.

The pictures of Aylan will (D.V.) have a good deal of impact, waking people up; but I doubt they will have the lasting power of the picture of Kim, and I am less than convinced that they have the same shock value.

This is not to diminish either the photographer or the tragedy. Rather, it is to illustrate the inadequacy of a purely photographic analysis.

R.


I think there's a subtlety that's being overlooked in this image whereas there is little that is subtle about Nick Ut's image, which is not to criticise it. The man's head turned away and his expression says it all for me .... if he is a parent this is probably one the hardest things he's ever had to do. His emotion is palpable!
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Old 09-07-2015   #79
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I was discussing the photographs that had run in the papers this evening past with another pj friend who had fairly extensive experience in the region. We were trying to figure out why this particular image made the front pages versus the avalanche of material that has come out of Syria in the past few years. It was of particular interest to me as I had been present in the immediate aftermath of a terrible massacre of children inside Syria. The pictures I then sent out, of a far more graphic nature than the picture being discussed, were met with a level of hostility I was unprepared for. In short, no North American outlets would touch them. The targeting of children had become commonplace at this point and I was distraught to say the least that nobody seemed to give a damn. What we came up with (pj friend and I) was this particular set of images was 'clean' to the point where the boy could easily become every parent's child. Face obscured, neutral attire and so on. This creates a situation where the boy is somehow detached from the horrific imagery we have seen so far and allows the viewer to think, for just a moment even, that it could be their young boy, cousin, brother etc. creating a far more visceral reaction. Sadly it has become easy to ignore the plight of the 'others' but should we make the emotional connection to our own... well you get the point.

The sheer power of this image is that without the corresponding copy,it could easily be thought of as your/our child.

And then we drank a bunch of whiskey.
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Old 09-07-2015   #80
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Originally Posted by Keith View Post
I think there's a subtlety that's being overlooked in this image whereas there is little that is subtle about Nick Ut's image, which is not to criticise it. The man's head turned away and his expression says it all for me .... if he is a parent this is probably one the hardest things he's ever had to do. His emotion is palpable!
I think it's the banality of the photograph which is so unsettling, it has all the elements of another familiar facebook beach holiday photograph, only that the child is dead.

That said, I think it's power is due to it's timing and political context. So much of the argument against accepting refugees is that they are a threat and they aren't like "us", this photograph goes against that. But Roger is right in that it doesn't really have the makings of an iconic photograph like the Nick Ut image, but then again I'm not sure if the media really can support iconic images anymore.
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