Old 12-05-2016   #41
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Not a contest, just a matter of getting things right
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Old 12-05-2016   #42
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Not a contest, just a matter of getting things right
Understood. I think you know Leica better than I do, so I will just stop giving misinformation.
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Old 12-05-2016   #43
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AFAIK there are still spares for the earlier LCD available.
I gather someone has had theirs recently fixed then?
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Old 12-05-2016   #44
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I know this is a bit early, however, I am quite eager to see the price impact of a totally redesigned M body on the previous generation digital M bodies. Fingers crossed it will drive the prices down on the M8 and M9 significantly more than the M240 did. If the M9 gets pushed down to current M8 prices, I might finally pull the trigger.

Might be something to think about for those putting holiday cash towards the purchase of an M8/9/240.
A lot will depend upon the M10.

If the M10 is a major improvement over the M240, expect lots of trade ins and significantly lower prices on all older digital M bodies.

If the M10 is turns out to be a not so big improvement, less trade ins and less impact on previous digital M resale value.

I am guessing a big improvement - otherwise, why bother?

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Old 12-05-2016   #45
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Presumably, the M10 will have a greater percentage of Panasonic content/involvement then of any M camera to date. Along with its refined body design, the M10 could be a substantial upgrade from the digital M's of the not so distant past.
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Old 12-05-2016   #46
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Presumably, the M10 will have a greater percentage of Panasonic content/involvement then of any M camera to date. Along with its refined body design, the M10 could be a substantial upgrade from the digital M's of the not so distant past.
Isn't the Panasonic involvement a rumour of the post-factual times we live in? Has anyone ever seen a confirmation of this "fact"?
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Old 12-05-2016   #47
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Nobody knows -yet- but the Q and the SL have a high Panasonic content.
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Old 01-04-2017   #48
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I know this is a bit early, however, I am quite eager to see the price impact of a totally redesigned M body on the previous generation digital M bodies. Fingers crossed it will drive the prices down on the M8 and M9 significantly more than the M240 did. If the M9 gets pushed down to current M8 prices, I might finally pull the trigger.

Might be something to think about for those putting holiday cash towards the purchase of an M8/9/240.
Lol... I asked the same question 4.5 years ago when we thought an M10 would come. It ended up being the ME. I bought a second hand M9 which was about 7 months old for 3500EUR. I still have the M9 which I use 90% of the time even if I can get my hands on the latest dslrs.

The only regret I have is that I waited too long to buy the M9. Sometimes it's just better to bite the bullet and spend some more if it has you go out and shoot photos rather than spending time and effort wondering about if's and but's.

Even if the prices for the M9 would drop, my personal feeling is that it would be a slow transition.... unless the M10 comes with a CCD!
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Old 01-04-2017   #49
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Presumably, the M10 will have a greater percentage of Panasonic content/involvement then of any M camera to date. Along with its refined body design, the M10 could be a substantial upgrade from the digital M's of the not so distant past.
I haven't ever seen anything to support either of these statements.

1. There has been no involvement with Panasonic in the past on Ms, and involving Panasonic would not have any effect, least of all lowering the price, since this is still a tiny volume item.

2. Don't count on this being a "substantial" improvement unless your sine qua non was a thin body or a faster EVF. We are in an incremental phase in digital camera development.

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Old 01-04-2017   #50
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hmm, well the industry might be in an incremental development stage . There are many things that Leica could implement on an M10 such as EVF, switchable auto focus for manual lenses, just to name a couple. Bob
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Old 01-04-2017   #51
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Umm.. Don't hold your breath...
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Old 01-04-2017   #52
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Do we know yet the expected announcement date? And, typically, do shipments start relatively soon thereafter?
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Old 01-04-2017   #53
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Old 01-04-2017   #54
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18th January.
Yes, but nobody knows exactly what will be announced.
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Old 01-04-2017   #55
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I haven't ever seen anything to support either of these statements.

1. There has been no involvement with Panasonic in the past on Ms, and involving Panasonic would not have any effect, least of all lowering the price, since this is still a tiny volume item.

2. Don't count on this being a "substantial" improvement unless your sine qua non was a thin body or a faster EVF. We are in an incremental phase in digital camera development.

Dante

My opinion is as follows with regards to the next M camera.
The M10 will be the first 'Panasonic M' model introduced to date.
I'm also assuming that Panasonic 'had a hand in' designing the internal electronics lay out which in turn allowed for a slightly narrower body design.
As different as the Q and SL are to all other digital Leica cameras ever produced, the Panasonic M will follow suit and its pedigree will not be found among any digital M camera produced thus far. (RF contraption not withstanding)
I would define these as 'substantial' differences.
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Old 01-04-2017   #56
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The rumoured absence of video argues against significant Panasonic involvement; Video-stills integration is a major part of Panasonic's technological strategy.
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Old 01-05-2017   #57
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A thinner body made possible by a longer mount flange will be appreciated by some of Leica's M customer base.

Now there's something for everyone... no LCD screen or monochrome or a body thickness more loyal to the film Ms.

I will speculate an incremental improvement in the data stream technologies (improved read noise and, or increased full-well capacity). A more powerful in-camera CPU would significantly improve EVF performance.
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Old 01-23-2017   #58
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I was wrong when I said it wouldnt affect the M8 and M9. Leica slashing the price of a new M240 is going to have a trickle down effect on the other used digital M.
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Old 01-23-2017   #59
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So far, and I have looked, there is no impact.

M9 is up from its low, and steady from November, M240 also.

I would expect to see some pressure on the M240s, so I'd bet you could find a nice one for about 3k in June or maybe even sooner. For now it's well above that.

M9 I don't know. It has been as low as 2200 but now 2700 is more the mean. You would think it will come back down, but who knows?

Many won't sell their previous Ms till they have the new one, so I think it's two months before the real deals are common.

Sony a7rii is dropping now. 2300 for a LN used is not unusual. New price is also down.
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Old 01-23-2017   #60
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M10s aren't readily available yet either. The only people who are dumping stuff now are the early adopters. You won't see a big price impact until the M10 becomes a regularly stocked item or at least until there are larger batches hitting the market. Give it 6-8 months.
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Old 01-23-2017   #61
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I see two M240s at Leica Miami just added. One is $3495 and another is $3395. Maybe not too long till you see 3k even from private party.
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Old 01-23-2017   #62
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There will be some pressure on M240 and M9 prices as early upgraders dump their bodies, but my sense so far is that this isn't a compelling upgrade for M240 users so many users may just continue to use their M240s for now. For M9 users the M10 offers much more and seems to address some issues.

I expect that the real price declines will happen later, when used M10s start hitting the market.
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Old 01-23-2017   #63
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Prices for M240 are going to take a big hit..I mentioned this a few days ago..and most people here disagreed..
The reason for the price dive...
The M10 is the most perfect digital Leica rangefinder ever.. and not by a small margin either..people are going to get rid of their bloated fatties...lol...as fast as they can dump em...most don't need video..
Old guys that is..are a goin to dump em as fast as they can..as they wont be able to stomach having the fat bodies..
And what does that mean to me..
This old guy here..is a going to be looking for a mint used M240 at a discount price ..probably a cash deal locally..and that will be that...I cant wait..
and yes..$3500-..will be way to high in a few months..
Dealers will be offering peanuts for them in trade..and the 240 will go the way of the M5..the one that was the mis-step..
And that goes for the M262 and variations...their prices will dive too..
Leica had the M10 right around the corner in development when they released the MD and 262...and if I may..in an unconscionable manner..they released them anyway just to make more bux...firstly off the new ver soon to be superceded....and then..with a potential double sale..all the upcoming newer versions with the thinner bodies...a good 2-fer....for...Leica..
Hey...
You don't want that fat body you just bought do ya...nope you dont..get this new slim one here..
We at Leica..are always moving forward..! ..Developin ..new..stuff..for our customers..oh yeah..
Lol...
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Old 01-23-2017   #64
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I agree. The 240 will fall precipitously.

BTW it's not unconscionable for a manufacturer to release products to make money. That is, in fact, why they exist.
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Old 01-23-2017   #65
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That M10 is the only Leica to grab my interest since I sold off my M9 (and never looked back). Finally a digital M that will handle as well as an M3, or a R-D1, for that matter. Try as I might, those overstuffed M9/M8 etc bodies are a real turn off, especially if you have been using a film M for a while.

Now I am hoping that it has a top quality sensor that can compete with the much lower priced competition. If so, I'm likely in.
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Old 01-23-2017   #66
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I agree. The 240 will fall precipitously.

BTW it's not unconscionable for a manufacturer to release products to make money. That is, in fact, why they exist.
Oh yeah, those prices will drop...
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Old 01-23-2017   #67
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The improved viewfinder is the thing people are overlooking.

Sensor is great. All sensors are, pretty much, these days.
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Old 01-23-2017   #68
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and the 240 will go the way of the M5..the one that was the mis-step...
The M240 will never be seen years from now as the greatest digital Leica ever made. But the M5 is widely considered the finest film Leica ever made by photographers. Not bauble collectors.
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Old 01-23-2017   #69
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I hated the M5..its a truck..lol..
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Old 01-23-2017   #70
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I hated the M5..its a truck..lol..
The BMW M5 is anything but a truck. Personally my favourite edition was the E39 edition.
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Old 01-23-2017   #71
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E28 for me.
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Old 01-23-2017   #72
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E28 for me.
You can't go wrong until you get to the V10 models...

E28 - s'awright..
E35 -
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Old 01-24-2017   #73
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A stock, well-sorted 2.5 liter E30 M is shockingly quick around a road-racing course. One equipped with the stickiest legal street tires is amazing.
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Old 01-24-2017   #74
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Finally a digital M that will handle as well as an M3, or a R-D1, for that matter. Try as I might, those overstuffed M9/M8 etc bodies are a real turn off, especially if you have been using a film M for a while.

To me it is very misleading statement above.

I've been using film Leicas for some time now. For all year, every day photography. Shooting with M-E (came after M9) is the same experience.
I'm happy with M-E because it is very close to my film M cameras.
M10 is closer by its size to film M, but M-E is close to film M as well.
M10 is much more "overstuffed" and much more distant from film M, comparing to classic M8/M9.
M10 has LED instead of real frame lines, huge ISO range which leaves film ISO range compromised and different from film M OVF. M10 is supporting EVF and LV with magnified focus peaking. This is "overstuffed" comparing M8/M9, which are free of those non-RF gimmicks.
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Old 01-24-2017   #75
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Overstuff compated to the "classic M8/M9?" LOL. It's called an evolution of the product line. The M8 wasn't very good to begin with, the M9 generation is fine but it's laggy and has it's own set of drawbacks. The M10 is a big step forward from a company that looks like it's finally getting back to what it's M line of cameras should be. And, his one point was that it's closer in size to a film M. You read into his comment way too much when he said "overstuffed."
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Old 01-24-2017   #76
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The M10 doesn't have an EVF 'gimmick' unless one chooses to add one. The M9 couldn't do live view in any case, due to using a CCD. And who would want to do live view with an LCD screen from a 2004 point-and-shoot?

The M10 viewfinder is superior to any film M viewfinder, and ISO range is superior to film, like any modern sensor.

The M10 will seriously depress the value of previous digital Ms.
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Old 01-24-2017   #77
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Not too hard to find a M10, I picked up mine yesterday. I sold my M240 privately because the dealer I took it to wouldnt take it because he had bought 5 from sellers that day alone.

Also I imagine Leica slash of new M240 prices will affect used values?
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Old 01-24-2017   #78
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Wow, five M240 users in Toronto?

It will affect, but nothing like "slashing" will happen. BH price of M10 and M240 is the same. Entire digital M market is small and Leica is the only digital RF manufacturer. As long as digital M is supported by Leica it is desirable. Even M8 which has partial only support from Leica is still one of most expensive digital camera among used ones.

Personally, I going to keep M-E and will try to get another used digital M. Who knows, by the time I'll have enough money, M10 might be trashed by M11 followers
At 6500$ for new M10 vs 3500$ for used M240 it is win-win situation for those like me, who would prefer to have two cameras instead of one.
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Old 01-24-2017   #79
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Even M8 which has partial only support from Leica is still one of most expensive digital camera among used ones.
Exactly... compare the M8 to the Nikon D200 (or similar spec'd camera) and the price difference is huge.
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Old 01-24-2017   #80
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Well the M8 was a $5500 retail when it came out ten years ago. A D200 wasn't anywhere near that. Plus there are far more D200s in the market than M8s.

It's all supply/demand, and the demand for the 240 will plummet; so will the price.
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