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The coolest thing a collector could do...
Old 4 Weeks Ago   #1
LCSmith
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The coolest thing a collector could do...

...would be to endow a school for Leica Rangefinder photography and supply the school with the collection of cameras and lenses. Let's dream a moment. Any other ideas for the school?

LC
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #2
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I'm a little sad for all great cameras that have to stay in a cupboard somewhere. Putting them to use is good.

I'm afraid a Leica rangefinder photo school would be a gear-centric, elitist affair - why would one restrict a photo school to one brand or even just type of camera? Just lend them to photographers and photo students on a project basis. An academic, youth or art institution could handle it.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #3
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There is a good reason Pentax K1000 is the most popular "students camera"- it's tough. Couple years ago I sourced nice kit of Nikon FM2s with lenses for art uni, most of them were broken after one semester, abused with brutal force and stupidity.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #4
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Insurance with a hefty deductible to be paid by the borrower would have to be part of it.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retinax View Post
A Leica rangefinder photo school...... - why would one restrict a photo school to one brand or even just type of camera?

Its because GW and HCB used Leicas, don't you know.

C'mon, you know that post is coming.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retinax View Post
I'm a little sad for all great cameras that have to stay in a cupboard somewhere. Putting them to use is good.

I'm afraid a Leica rangefinder photo school would be a gear-centric, elitist affair - why would one restrict a photo school to one brand or even just type of camera? Just lend them to photographers and photo students on a project basis. An academic, youth or art institution could handle it.
Quite right. It makes for a beautiful fiction, though, the thought of such a school under non-elitist terms, children otherwise unable to have access to such instruments being taught by masters (a kind of magnet school). Why not? They do it for violins. Are violins any more "practical" than cameras? Are cameras any less musical in their capabilities? Yes, I will dream this fiction. It is one where a collector of the finest rangefinder cameras founds a school for rangefinder photography. Why rangefinder? Because it demands so much of you while still being accessible. I could go on; but in my dream, they are rangefinders.

That gal/guy would be a legend.

Last edited by LCSmith : 4 Weeks Ago at 12:00. Reason: Editorial
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #7
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Originally Posted by jbielikowski View Post
There is a good reason Pentax K1000 is the most popular "students camera"- it's tough. Couple years ago I sourced nice kit of Nikon FM2s with lenses for art uni, most of them were broken after one semester, abused with brutal force and stupidity.
For those type of ham fisted morons I have just one word, pinhole.
You can buy 8"X8" carboard cartons from the dollar store, 2 for $1.
Use 5X7 paper as a negative, tape it to one side of the box. Then place the .6 mm pinhole at the other end, that is a 200mm FL working at f333. Some 5X7 trays, HC-110 at 1:32 is a great cheap developer. A makeshift darkroom. Contact print for a positive. Image making at it's most basic.
Buy what you need, divide total $ by number of students, charge students that amount and add $10 per student on that amount.

If they want a film camera, well they can just go and buy their own. That will cause them to treat it with somewhat more respect.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuiko85 View Post

If they want a film camera, well they can just go and buy their own. That will cause them to treat it with somewhat more respect.
Unfortunately art departments at universities often can be very unserious operations run by unscrupulous and unsound acumens.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #9
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"The coolest thing a collector could do" is put film in the camera and go out and take pictures, surely?


And would it take that much to explain how cameras and film/digital work? I mean what would they do on Tuesday afternoon?


Regards, David
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #10
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The best thing any photo instructor could do is to have the student use a fully mechanical camera and a handheld light meter.
HCB, Capa, etc, all used rangefinders in their heyday not because they were better but because they were available, with the selection of lenses necessary to do the job. SLRs were available a bit later on, but the retrofocal lenses hadn't reached a level that matched what was available in the rangefinder camera lens selection. Yes, later on many used rangefinders but many amazing images have been made with cameras other than rangefinders, even "street" or "decisive moment" images.
The best thing a collector could do would probably be to sell that collection at top dollar then use that money to fund a real photo school. Or maybe just make a sizable donation to a public school arts program. You can buy 10 working K1000 bodies with fantastic lenses for every Leica body alone. Make this thing work, not just keep it limited to the most affluent and "entitled" like so many schools.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbielikowski View Post
There is a good reason Pentax K1000 is the most popular "students camera"- it's tough. Couple years ago I sourced nice kit of Nikon FM2s with lenses for art uni, most of them were broken after one semester, abused with brutal force and stupidity.
Seeing that FM/FM2 kameras have been in places of conflict all over the world, they are plenty tough.
Irresponsible entitled idiots can break anything if they try hard enough.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
"The coolest thing a collector could do" is put film in the camera and go out and take pictures, surely?

And would it take that much to explain how cameras and film/digital work? I mean what would they do on Tuesday afternoon?

Regards, David
To be sure.

But we are dreaming here, David.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #13
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Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Seeing that FM/FM2 kameras have been in places of conflict all over the world, they are plenty tough.
Irresponsible entitled idiots can break anything if they try hard enough.
Yes, yes. All very true.

But let's say it's a collector who is a particularly poor photographer. Let's also say (we are dreaming) that the collector is also an emotionally secure and self-aware person, and they know their photographs are poor. What a feeling of liberation it would be to unburden oneself of such a weight of mediocrity and failure, only to become a legend and a hero!
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM View Post
The best thing any photo instructor could do is to have the student use a fully mechanical camera and a handheld light meter.
HCB, Capa, etc, all used rangefinders in their heyday not because they were better but because they were available, with the selection of lenses necessary to do the job. SLRs were available a bit later on, but the retrofocal lenses hadn't reached a level that matched what was available in the rangefinder camera lens selection.
Phil Forrest
Yes yes yes. Thank you, Phil. Agreed on all counts.

But let's just suppose that this would be a rangefinder school. Not because rangefinders are better (any more than violins are better than violas, or paint is better than graphite) but because it is a school for rangefinder photography. That is the instrument of the school (we are dreaming and this is a very special school).
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM View Post
The best thing any photo instructor could do is to have the student use a fully mechanical camera and a handheld light meter.
HCB, Capa, etc, all used rangefinders in their heyday not because they were better but because they were available, with the selection of lenses necessary to do the job. SLRs were available a bit later on, but the retrofocal lenses hadn't reached a level that matched what was available in the rangefinder camera lens selection. Yes, later on many used rangefinders but many amazing images have been made with cameras other than rangefinders, even "street" or "decisive moment" images.
The best thing a collector could do would probably be to sell that collection at top dollar then use that money to fund a real photo school. Or maybe just make a sizable donation to a public school arts program. You can buy 10 working K1000 bodies with fantastic lenses for every Leica body alone. Make this thing work, not just keep it limited to the most affluent and "entitled" like so many schools.
Phil Forrest
Right...

And Bruce Gulden, Joel Meyerowitz and others who still using Leica are just as elitists as rest of us, who are still using Leica. Including many people I know who has no dentist income, but still using Leica cameras.
Like Junku Nishimura or young cinematographer from Canada living/working it France and using Leica M I'm aware of. And many other.
We are just stupid elitists. No, clingy morons, including me. I have two Nkon F bodies, I used other SLRs on the street, but according to you I'm just an idiot for finding Leica LTM, M working best for me.

Winogrand and the rest could switch on F in seventies. But most of I know didn't.

Read this article from RFF member who entered Winogrand's classes with Nikon and Nikor Wide prime and went for Leica during those classes.
https://americansuburbx.com/2011/07/...ith-garry.html

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Why so many Leica threads are turning into pooping parade?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #16
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Right...

Why so many Leica threads are turning into pooping parade?

They don't have to, but your quibbling with Phil is a good way to get it moving.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #17
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To clarify my thought, not only for the inevitable someone trying to pick a fight: I think lending out a camera collection to people to use would be wonderful, and Deardorffs would ideally be lent to photographers who want to work with Deardorffs, Nikons to photographers who want to work with Nikons and so, same with Leicas. What I do not understand is the idea of a Leica photo school, other than as a marketing tool for Leica. If the absurdity of that idea isn't apparent to you, think of something less close to your heart. A Mercedes driving school, a Wüsthof chopping and slicing school, a Lamy creative writing school. Artists, craftsmen, hobbyists ideally pick their tools after learning the basics of their craft, and what they have left to learn later on usually has nothing to do with the tool. So in none of the stages grouping by tool makes sense.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #18
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My friend (in his 80s) donated his complete darkroom equipment and 4x5 cameras to a local high school. And surprise they are using it and fill the class.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retinax View Post
What I do not understand is the idea of a Leica photo school, other than as a marketing tool for Leica. If the absurdity of that idea isn't apparent to you, think of something less close to your heart.
I see you have misidentified me as some crochetty old bigotted maniac mired in the miasmal mist of greed or worse. No, it is only a dream we are discussing, friend. It is not a real thing. Imagine the story. Some very mediocre photographer surrounded by hundreds of beautiful cameras gives them away and founds a school of rangefinder photography. It need not be Leica (we are dreaming and when we dream we just let ourselves think; the "judgement" or "assessment" of the idea comes later -- that's what we are doing now!). Imagine the sheer liberation that person would feel. That person would be an instant legend.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #20
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Originally Posted by Filter Factor View Post
They don't have to, but your quibbling with Phil is a good way to get it moving.
Not just him on this thread and another ones.

In return to Leica poop and film wisdom.

The whole film Pentax thing and photo-school is bogus. I never learned simple thing with film. Only after getting digital DSLR I understood.
Film is waste, obstacle in learning. With DLSR I was able to learn ISO, shutter speed and aperture in real time and hundred times more effectively.
Even S16 is easy to learn on digital.

Rangefinder school has to be done after it. For those who are willing to understand why it is different.
Here is opening video for it:
https://youtu.be/Xumo7_JUeMo
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #21
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I think maybe you are all missing my point -- no doubt because I am particularly poor communicator.

Let's be honest. There's nothing cool about collecting. I mean, it is cool for the collector (sort of) but that's really it.

The collector can keep, let's say, ten cameras (and lenses). But the other 700 are given to the school. They are all rangefinders (that's an essential part of the story).

The collector can continue making mediocre photography (in deference to David's astute harangue to arms), but also becomes a legend by founding a school.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCSmith View Post
I see you have misidentified me as some crochetty old bigotted maniac mired in the miasmal mist of greed or worse. No, it is only a dream we are discussing, friend. It is not a real thing. Imagine the story. Some very mediocre photographer surrounded by hundreds of beautiful cameras gives them away and founds a school of rangefinder photography. It need not be Leica (we are dreaming and when we dream we just let ourselves think; the "judgement" or "assessment" of the idea comes later -- that's what we are doing now!). Imagine the sheer liberation that person would feel. That person would be an instant legend.

No no I think I get your idea from your clarification post #6. Sorry I got hung up on the "Leica rangefinder photo school" name - if we don't have to call it that, I'm all for it .
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuiko85 View Post
For those type of ham fisted morons I have just one word, pinhole.
You can buy 8"X8" carboard cartons from the dollar store, 2 for $1.
Use 5X7 paper as a negative, tape it to one side of the box. Then place the .6 mm pinhole at the other end, that is a 200mm FL working at f333. Some 5X7 trays, HC-110 at 1:32 is a great cheap developer. A makeshift darkroom. Contact print for a positive. Image making at it's most basic.
Buy what you need, divide total $ by number of students, charge students that amount and add $10 per student on that amount.

If they want a film camera, well they can just go and buy their own. That will cause them to treat it with somewhat more respect.
Nice idea, but what of those people who choose to, or must use their equipment (personal or client furnished) in environments that are not conducive to slow, patient, protective use. I chose to use my own equipment for crime scene photos when my office didn't have cameras, and later, when I could get better photos because of the equipment I had in my personal property that my office didn't have. Luckily there usually isn't a lot going on at a crime scene so I could take my time, but accidents do happen. There were times during surveillance when that was less of an option.

Once I had to hang out the back of a Chinook helicopter's open ramp for photos of an entire village area. Didn't loose or damage anything but my self evaluated bravery. But ...
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #24
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I love collectors! Without collectors, we would never see vintage cameras hitting the market (or popping up in estate sales) in brand new condition. A few months ago I bought an M4 BP that is essentially brand new and the collector was so nice to have it serviced before sending it to me. A 50 years old brand new camera!
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #25
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I still can't work out what they would do in this school. RF's are easy to focus, exposure is fairly easy these days; mostly a matter of learning when not to trust the thing and what does that leave?

Like I asked, what would they do on Tuesday?

Here's a contribution though:-

https://www.pbase.com/ericsorensen/i...55921/original

Regards, David
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
I still can't work out what they would do in this school. RF's are easy to focus, exposure is fairly easy these days; mostly a matter of learning when not to trust the thing and what does that leave?

Like I asked, what would they do on Tuesday?

Here's a contribution though:-

https://www.pbase.com/ericsorensen/i...55921/original

Regards, David
If what you say is true, that virtuosic RF photography is mere "exposure and focusing" then virtuosic musicianship is mere "notes and strings".
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #27
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I never called Kostya nor anyone else an idiot or a moron. I just happen to work in a field where I see kids and families with very low socio-economic status, most of which would love to partake in any creative endeavor but don't have the means to do so. A good camera with lens could be the equivalent of all the money a family has for a month. So in this very selective school who gets chosen to participate? Only the most talented? This has both class and racial backlash associated, at least here in the USA.
As for debating me, I don't post here that much recently, mostly due to work and school. I don't pick fights but I do like to put some perspective into the conversation occasionally.
Ok, y'all can now tell me and the rest of us how hard you had it back in the day, no shoes, snow, uphill both ways to and from school, working in a coal mine at age 4, whatever. I'm not going to play who has the worst trauma or who grew up in the hardest conditions. I'm privileged now and I know it. But I'm also sensitive to that fact and keep it in mind in my work and walking around Philadelphia with a camera.
Yeah, more photo schools, more arts in schools, that's fantastic however you do it.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #28
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What kind of "collectors" are we talking about? Amateur photographers with GAS? Or a real antiquarian? The latter are sorely underappreciated.

Back to the topic of starting a school for Leica photography, I would say the real goal should be to reduce the price of their products. But as a side project, sure, it would be cool to start a photography school.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Not just him on this thread and another ones.

In return to Leica poop and film wisdom.

The whole film Pentax thing and photo-school is bogus. I never learned simple thing with film. Only after getting digital DSLR I understood.
Film is waste, obstacle in learning. With DLSR I was able to learn ISO, shutter speed and aperture in real time and hundred times more effectively.
Even S16 is easy to learn on digital.

Rangefinder school has to be done after it. For those who are willing to understand why it is different.
Here is opening video for it:
https://youtu.be/Xumo7_JUeMo
Also, sorry about your bad film experience, I shot digital for a decade and it was all **** until I shot film and the pain and money expense taught me to actually see and not just spray around pictures wily nily.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM View Post
I never called Kostya nor anyone else an idiot or a moron. I just happen to work in a field where I see kids and families with very low socio-economic status, most of which would love to partake in any creative endeavor but don't have the means to do so. A good camera with lens could be the equivalent of all the money a family has for a month. So in this very selective school who gets chosen to participate? Only the most talented? This has both class and racial backlash associated, at least here in the USA.
As for debating me, I don't post here that much recently, mostly due to work and school. I don't pick fights but I do like to put some perspective into the conversation occasionally.
Ok, y'all can now tell me and the rest of us how hard you had it back in the day, no shoes, snow, uphill both ways to and from school, working in a coal mine at age 4, whatever. I'm not going to play who has the worst trauma or who grew up in the hardest conditions. I'm privileged now and I know it. But I'm also sensitive to that fact and keep it in mind in my work and walking around Philadelphia with a camera.
Yeah, more photo schools, more arts in schools, that's fantastic however you do it.
Phil Forrest
We are only dreaming, friend. Maybe the dream has more to do with the collector than the school. Maybe the collector has the chance to be a legend, when before the collector was only a collector. What is your dream for a school?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #31
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Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
I still can't work out what they would do in this school. RF's are easy to focus, exposure is fairly easy these days; mostly a matter of learning when not to trust the thing and what does that leave?

Like I asked, what would they do on Tuesday?

Here's a contribution though:-

https://www.pbase.com/ericsorensen/i...55921/original

Regards, David
I think/hope the OP pictures not only the specifics of rangefinders being taught, but a photo school which lets students use Leicas a collector donates. Hopefully not exclusively as the phrase "school for leica rangefinder photography" in the op suggest, that would be rather absurd (would using an SLR get one expelled?). But making them available to people who otherwise don't have access to them would make sense.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #32
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Also, sorry about your bad film experience, I shot digital for a decade and it was all **** until I shot film and the pain and money expense taught me to actually see and not just spray around pictures wily nily.
Sorry, but I'm not biased against of Leica as you are. Photography where I have seen 99.99% of dross is called LF . And their gear prices aren't cheap either.

You might slightly misinterpreting my film experience. Do you read posts here with some degree of attention? Ever clicked at links in the sig?
My film pictures are known here and where by now. My darkroom prints are in different countries and continents. I was just watching new video from Inspired Eye today where my film taken pictures were reviewed, noted. Some with film Leica, some with Smena, some with Bessa. I might be only one film photog in this IE magazine, video issue.

It was learning exposure, where film was nothing good for me. Nor I'm taking many exposures on digital.

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Who is next to poop on Leica and its users here?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #33
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Nice idea, but what of those people who choose to, or must use their equipment (personal or client furnished) in environments that are not conducive to slow, patient, protective use. I chose to use my own equipment for crime scene photos when my office didn't have cameras, and later, when I could get better photos because of the equipment I had in my personal property that my office didn't have. Luckily there usually isn't a lot going on at a crime scene so I could take my time, but accidents do happen. There were times during surveillance when that was less of an option.

Once I had to hang out the back of a Chinook helicopter's open ramp for photos of an entire village area. Didn't loose or damage anything but my self evaluated bravery. But ...
I know! Maybe one of those archeological dig sites where the bones indicate a crime scene. Been laying there for 1000 years anyway, another 5 or 6 minutes won’t make much difference.
Actually my first post was mostly just a but of fun, not serious.
In do like pinhole though, about as basic as you can get.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #34
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But making them available to people who otherwise don't have access to them would make sense.
Yes, thank you. This is the spirit of the proposition.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #35
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Also, sorry about your bad film experience, I shot digital for a decade and it was all **** until I shot film and the pain and money expense taught me to actually see and not just spray around pictures wily nily.
Or you could have applied the same discipline with digital

I've gone through rolls of film that went in the trash as soon as I got the box of slides back

I like to teach with digital - you remember what you did and can adjust right away. You don't have to wait until you get your photos developed, and wonder "hmm what would have happened if I turned up the flash one stop, would stopping down the lens one or two stops give me the extra dof I need?, Can I hand hold 1/15s)
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #36
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My lovely local camera shop has days where it lends out cameras with a roll of film to mostly students for them then to see the developed results (for a small fee and the cost of the film). It's very popular.

But not his Leicas!
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De-gassing progress:

Leica M2, Nikon D700, Bronica RF645, Leica CL, Summicron 40mm, Rolleicord Va, Hasselblad 500 CM Zeiss Planar, Leica 50mm Summicron V3, Hasselblad PME51 metered prism, Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta 534/16 & Ensign 820 Special - all gone.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #37
leicapixie
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Surely not Leica M's film..!
These are reserved for "real photographers" who never actually expose film thru them..how crass.
The unwashed, ill educated are only worthy of old Pentax Spotmatics or newer K-1000.
First don't supply straps, as dropping cameras like phones is standard.

On a serious note my Pentaxes have never been serviced, Nikons somewhat and Leica have helped repair folk thru their lives..
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #38
Rayt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCSmith View Post
Yes, yes. All very true.

But let's say it's a collector who is a particularly poor photographer. Let's also say (we are dreaming) that the collector is also an emotionally secure and self-aware person, and they know their photographs are poor. What a feeling of liberation it would be to unburden oneself of such a weight of mediocrity and failure, only to become a legend and a hero!
What a horrible statement. You seem to have issues with some people.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #39
David Hughes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM View Post
I never called Kostya nor anyone else an idiot or a moron. I just happen to work in a field where I see kids and families with very low socio-economic status, most of which would love to partake in any creative endeavor but don't have the means to do so. A good camera with lens could be the equivalent of all the money a family has for a month. So in this very selective school who gets chosen to participate? Only the most talented? This has both class and racial backlash associated, at least here in the USA.
As for debating me, I don't post here that much recently, mostly due to work and school. I don't pick fights but I do like to put some perspective into the conversation occasionally.
Ok, y'all can now tell me and the rest of us how hard you had it back in the day, no shoes, snow, uphill both ways to and from school, working in a coal mine at age 4, whatever. I'm not going to play who has the worst trauma or who grew up in the hardest conditions. I'm privileged now and I know it. But I'm also sensitive to that fact and keep it in mind in my work and walking around Philadelphia with a camera.
Yeah, more photo schools, more arts in schools, that's fantastic however you do it.
Phil Forrest

Well, you could do what this old git does; after checking I give a lot to charity shops. That's film and digital, btw, because I like them to go around and be used and there's too much hassle to selling a lot of unappreciated (say 3, 5 or 8 megapixel) cameras. The only problem is finding some way of keeping the instruction manual with the camera...


Regards, David
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #40
David Hughes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCSmith View Post
If what you say is true, that virtuosic RF photography is mere "exposure and focusing" then virtuosic musicianship is mere "notes and strings".

Hmmm, what musician can play 36 or 37 notes one after the other over (say) a couple of days and then choose the best one and get acclaimed for it as photographers do?


Regards, David
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