Old 02-26-2017   #81
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Hi Maggie,

My experience is that you'll have better luck calling Leica NJ. I recently got mine back with a new sensor and noted their email response was very poor. Things started happening when I picked up the phone. Mine took twelve weeks, but that was for an MM.

At some point they will no doubt terminate the good faith upgrade. I'd certainly send it in if I were you. Time flies, and before you know it, you'll have it back again like new.

John
Excellent. I'll get on the phone tomorrow!
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Old 02-26-2017   #82
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Hi Maggie,

My experience is that you'll have better luck calling Leica NJ. I recently got mine back with a new sensor and noted their email response was very poor. Things started happening when I picked up the phone. Mine took twelve weeks, but that was for an MM.

At some point they will no doubt terminate the good faith upgrade. I'd certainly send it in if I were you. Time flies, and before you know it, you'll have it back again like new.

John
There is no time limit on the sensor replacement guaranty. It will end when sensor production has stopped and Leica's stockpile runs out, I suppose, which may well be quite a few years from now. Even then I guess it will be replaced by a discount program.
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Old 03-05-2017   #83
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Maggie, wonderful color in your pictures above. I sold my M9-P and MM to a dealer in Bangkok at a little more than the going price in the States and ordered an M10 in Paris, where I am now but, as it hasn't arrived yet, I cannot say anything from personal experience. My decision was based on a discussion with a very good professional photographer, whose colors sense and work are superb.

His impression is that the M10 is operationally night and day from the M9, and that it feels like the Leica M that we all wanted when the M8 was released. His feeling is that with a few adjustments in Lightroom one can get pretty close to the M9 look — though he thinks that there may still be something inexplicably special about that look. He feels that, compared to the M9, the M10 sensor is almost too good, in that it can have something of a homogenizing effect. He said that the M9 was a challenge, especially in low light, but sometimes challenges pay off in better images, like using film. He feels that probably with the M10 one may have to "rough up" the image somewhat.

Also, he thinks that the M10 B&W conversions look very good, though it seems that the MM may be a little better, but again, depending on post-processing, it could really be splitting hairs. For my work, the superiority of the MM over the M9 was not really important because I was never after the "exquisite" look that the MM can give.
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Based on my short time working with a M10 (current M9 and MM user), in my opinion, the posting above and in the opinion of that photographer who assessed the M10, I feel he hit the nail on the head in all he touched upon. None more so than his statement that the M10 images sometimes appear to project a homogenizing effect. I noticed this in many of the raw files I assessed and yes I do fully understand what one can do with raw files.

I found it to be a lovely camera both functionally and for the most part in its output, but if by some magical means one could have the output of a M9 in a body with all the attributes and functionality of a M10 including high ISO performance etc, vs. the M10 with its very pleasing and quite exceptional output, I would have no hesitation in deciding which one I would pick.

Unfortunately, use of the M9 can often be limiting for a wide variety of shooting circumstance and we all know these shortcoming and limitations. The question is can one work with them and value its positive attributes more than it's negatives and weaknesses? The answer of course is both personal and will differ from user to user. Just my personal thoughts.

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Old 03-05-2017   #84
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Excellent portrait.
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Old 03-06-2017   #85
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Thank you, Huss!
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Old 03-06-2017   #86
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How carry-able is the SL - it might work well with the Noctilux on the shoulder.
With its larger native lenses, I guess it tips over but does it hang well vertically ?
I'm a 5'10", 152 pounds, and a 59 year old man. The SL surely is bigger than a "M" and it gets heavy with "R" glass and mucho heavy with any current native lenses.

I use the baseplate from a Nikon AH-4 handstrap to hang my SL like a M5 using the OEM neckstrap that came with the SL. Ergonomically makes a huge difference and when worn with my arm to the side the package is pretty low profile.

Anyways even a 35 Lux-R is E67 and is the same size as an 80 Lux. Still smaller than a Nikon F5 which happens to be my current favorite film SLR.

So anyways in my past I am known to walk all day in NYC at times carrying three M-Bodies rigged out with lenses with one camera in hand and the others carried. Also have shot carrying two rigged medium format cameras all day, and perhaps walking 10-12 miles every Saturday and Sunday. Also know at times I go walking with a Pentax 67II. Whenever I leave my apartment with a camera, it more or less is an all day commitment to carrying my gear all day.

Anyways from carrying cameras I have a very thick neck for a skinny guy that is a bit monstrous like a football player. Also know my right arm is kinda overdeveloped and is about an inch longer than my left arm. So I am physically deformed from carrying cameras, and my tailor says that my extra thick neck and extra long right arm are kinda unusual. BTW I do not look my age.

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Old 03-06-2017   #87
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New Yorkers are generally in better shape than the avg Joe w/car...because they walk...everywhere..
And are able to handle their poundage of cameras..with a smile..on their face..
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Old 03-06-2017   #88
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I've contacted Leica NJ to put me on the waiting list for a sensor replacement. So, here's hoping that the M9-P gets shipped off in June and is back in July.

I love it so. This is the combo I used for all of my Cuba photos (well, the lens hood is dented now):


Zeiss C Biogon 35/2.8 on Leica M9-P, January 26, 2013 by Maggie Osterberg, on Flickr
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Old 03-06-2017   #89
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New Yorkers are generally in better shape than the avg Joe w/car...because they walk...everywhere..
And are able to handle their poundage of cameras..with a smile..on their face..
Emile,

I wear my deformities as a badge of honor, although a very thick neck on an otherwise skinny guy does kinda look funny. LOL.

Anyways the price of a car, since I don't own one, allows me to afford Leicas. The money has to come from somewhere.

I expect delivery of a 50 Lux-SL this Friday. I will knickname this lens "The Porker" because it is E82 filter size, about a half inch shorter than a collapsed 24-90, and only 2.6 ounces lighter than the gigantic and heavy 24-90. BTW Leica lent me a 24-90 to use for NYC Fashion Week. The in lens image stabilization is a big deal. I printed some crazy slow shutter speed night shots that look like tripod shots. I think Godfrey has it right: the SL in leu of a DSLR.

Anyways I kinda see that Leica kinda is giving away a free gym membership with each native SL lens they sell. Anyways Leica is helping me stay young in many ways.

Cal
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Old 03-06-2017   #90
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New Yorkers are generally in better shape than the avg Joe w/car...because they walk...everywhere..
And are able to handle their poundage of cameras..with a smile..on their face..
I'm in California and I try to walk and bicycle as much as I can.

The SL fitted with SL24-90 and in the Tenba Cooper 13DSLR bag with the Elmar-R 180mm f/4 and Tri-Elmar-M 16-18-21mm weighs in at well under 8 lbs total. I don't use a neckstrap at all ... I wear the bag bandolier style and keep the camera and whatever lens is fitted in my hand and attached to me with a wrist leash. I've walked for upwards of three hours with this kit and didn't find it difficult or overwhelming.

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Old 03-06-2017   #91
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I've contacted Leica NJ to put me on the waiting list for a sensor replacement. So, here's hoping that the M9-P gets shipped off in June and is back in July.

I love it so. This is the combo I used for all of my Cuba photos (well, the lens hood is dented now):


Zeiss C Biogon 35/2.8 on Leica M9-P, January 26, 2013 by Maggie Osterberg, on Flickr
Maggie,

After owning the SL a while and then shooting my Monochrom, I found my Monochrom to be a rather primitive and most basic digital camera, and there is some big time charm there that reminds me of why I still shoot a lot of film with old retro cameras.

Warts and all I still love my Monochrom, and because it is so basic it is still so much fun to use.

The M246 kinda crushes my Monochrome in almost every manner and is so much more advanced: more shadow detail, smoother roll off in the highlights, higher dynamic range, bigger files, higher ISO..., but in one regard the Monochrom has one major advantage: it has a broad rich midrange that resembles larger formats.

Anyways my Monochrom still remains a great camera, warts and all.

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Thoughts on upgrading to M10 from 240M-P
Old 02-27-2018   #92
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Thoughts on upgrading to M10 from 240M-P

Hello All,
I'm considering upgrading my M-P for the M10 to take advantage of the increased ISO and DR. I really don't need the video capabilities of the M-P. Has anyone here made the transition and are you happy with your choice?
Regards from Alaska
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Old 02-27-2018   #93
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I've certainly thought about it, particularly now that the M10 is generally available. My problem is my M-240 still performs perfectly, and while I would appreciate the reported improvement in the M10 rangefinder, the cost of replacing my M-240 Leica grip, RRS baseplate, half case, EVF, and buying the M10 specific +1 diopter makes it too big of a price jump for me at this time.
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Old 02-27-2018   #94
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Swapping backwards and forwards between the M10 and the M240 at the dealership, I could notice there was a little difference in the VF, but negligible for me.
I'm not sold on DR increases either, as IMO if you correctly expose a shot you do not need it. And from all the pics posted online, I could not tell which camera took them.

For me what it boils down to is the smaller body and revised details like ISO dial. The smaller body is nice.
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Old 02-27-2018   #95
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And of course the upgrade is free, so you don't have to worry about how much the incremental improvements are going to cost. You just have to think about how much your photographs will actually improve by moving to the M10.
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Old 02-27-2018   #96
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And of course the upgrade is free, so you don't have to worry about how much the incremental improvements are going to cost. You just have to think about how much your photographs will actually improve by moving to the M10.
M-P to M10 upgrade for free?
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Old 02-27-2018   #97
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I upgraded to the M10 from an 240 when it first came out.

All the little improvements add up, VF, ISO, white balance, etc...
As Huss said, the biggest one is the size and that alone, was worth it for me.
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Old 02-27-2018   #98
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great comments, thank you
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Old 02-27-2018   #99
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I have the M 262 and the M 10 and the M 10 is more responsive and the much better high ISO. Very usable at 12,800. No banding like with the M 262. For the street it is a dream though I still love my original MM for that.
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Old 02-27-2018   #100
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The size of the M10 is a real attraction. I'm not in a position to upgrade though

I really notice the differences in the hand when I pick up the M240, then the M9, then a film M. The M10 is more like the film M, right? I hope so.
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Old 02-28-2018   #101
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I just side-graded from the M262 to M10. There are some pros and cons.

Both ergonomics and haptics on the M10 are significantly improved over the M262. The body is the same size as my M7, although it is slightly heavier. The controls are well placed, and while the ISO dial is difficult to use one-handed, it works much better than the plastic disks used on film cameras. The shutter sound is quite different - slightly quieter, and less annoying than the M262’s clonk, but still noisier than the M7.

As a glasses wearer, I do not find a significant improvement with the viewfinder. The eye relief before was practically zero, so presumably a 50% improvement is still practically zero. For me, the 35mm framelines are pretty much the entire field of view - exactly the same as with the M7 (0.72x viewfinder).

There are some downsides. There is no aperture information saved in the image files, even through the camera has an estimate. The battery life is also worse (budget for 1.5x as many batteries as for the M240/262), and oddly there is no image-review-while-shutter-held option - one of my favourite features on the M262.

The main upside, other than haptics, is the excellent and fast live-view implementation. The DNG raw files also integrate much better with iOS thanks to the large preview JPEGs. This makes it possible to use an iPad when travelling - something which was nightmarish with the M262 files due to the low-res preview and Apple Photos refusal to display RAW directly (and shooting RAW+JPEG causes the importer to frequently crash under iOS11).

FWIW, I do not find see any significant difference in image quality, other than improved DR at higher ISOs which makes ISO 3200 and 6400 more usable (but then my 262 never showed any image banding even when pushed heavily, so maybe I was lucky before).

It is a very good camera, but the changes are small and incremental unless haptics are your priority.
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Old 02-28-2018   #102
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I just side-graded from the M262 to M10. There are some pros and cons.

Both ergonomics and haptics on the M10 are significantly improved over the M262. The body is the same size as my M7, although it is slightly heavier. The controls are well placed, and while the ISO dial is difficult to use one-handed, it works much better than the plastic disks used on film cameras. The shutter sound is quite different - slightly quieter, and less annoying than the M262’s clonk, but still noisier than the M7.

As a glasses wearer, I do not find a significant improvement with the viewfinder. The eye relief before was practically zero, so presumably a 50% improvement is still practically zero. For me, the 35mm framelines are pretty much the entire field of view - exactly the same as with the M7 (0.72x viewfinder).

There are some downsides. There is no aperture information saved in the image files, even through the camera has an estimate. The battery life is also worse (budget for 1.5x as many batteries as for the M240/262), and oddly there is no image-review-while-shutter-held option - one of my favourite features on the M262.

The main upside, other than haptics, is the excellent and fast live-view implementation. The DNG raw files also integrate much better with iOS thanks to the large preview JPEGs. This makes it possible to use an iPad when travelling - something which was nightmarish with the M262 files due to the low-res preview and Apple Photos refusal to display RAW directly (and shooting RAW+JPEG causes the importer to frequently crash under iOS11).

FWIW, I do not find see any significant difference in image quality, other than improved DR at higher ISOs which makes ISO 3200 and 6400 more usable (but then my 262 never showed any image banding even when pushed heavily, so maybe I was lucky before).

It is a very good camera, but the changes are small and incremental unless haptics are your priority.
Excellent summation.
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Old 02-28-2018   #103
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I had an M10 for one weekend and it is of course a very nice camera. But the improvement to my M240 is so marginal, it's just not worth it (for me). I especially hoped for a better viewing experience with glasses but that was not the case. The slightly better dynamic range was not really noticeable for my style of landscape shooting where especially highlight recovery is important.
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Old 02-28-2018   #104
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I never forgave Canon for leaving the FD line behind, so I "skipped" AF cameras for many many years. I was happy with the Canon FD cameras and lenses. I am somewhere "there" with Leica. I am still with my M8 and M9 cameras, and I am happy with them. I have not yet entered the "life beyond M9" stage yet!
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Old 03-01-2018   #105
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In terms of signal-to-noise ratio, the M10 outperforms the M240 in every way.

Dynamic range depends directly on the S/N at base ISO. Above base ISO, a sensor's conversion gain determines the compromise between dynamic range and sensitivity. Some brands maximize sensitivity at the expense of dynamic range while others make the opposite choice.

Here's the data.

Dynamic range

Shadow region improvement (a measure of ISO invariance – how much noise is due to ISO amplification after the shutter closes)

Raw file S/N vs ISO

Sensor analog noise level vs ISO

Sensor sensitivity (hover over the symbols to ID the cameras)

Whether or not these performance improvements are important will vary from individual to individual.

Likewise, camera handling and other usage differences are important considerations.

It's interesting to note the only the M-246 outperforms the M10. Also, there are relatively few 24 x 36 mm sensor cameras from other brands that outperform the M10. The data indicates a monochrome version of the M10 could be the highest performing 24 X 36 mm sensor camera.
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Old 03-01-2018   #106
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Seems a pity that they didn't take the opportunity to improve the M10 viewfinder to the same level as that of the Ikon. That was my big hope, along with the smaller body.
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Old 03-01-2018   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
And of course the upgrade is free, so you don't have to worry about how much the incremental improvements are going to cost. You just have to think about how much your photographs will actually improve by moving to the M10.
Quote:
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M-P to M10 upgrade for free?
The poster was using sarcasm as a comment?

derision, mockery, ridicule, scorn, sneering, scoffing; irony; cynicism. The use of irony to mock or convey contempt.
Mid 16th century: from French sarcasme, or via late Latin from late Greek sarkasmos, from Greek sarkazein ‘tear flesh’, in late Greek ‘gnash the teeth, speak bitterly’ (from sarx, sark- ‘flesh’).
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Old 03-01-2018   #108
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If the M10 has less banding than the M240/262 cameras (I currently own a 262), I'd certainly...wait for a M10 Typ 262 made from magnesium alloy.

I finally got to hold my M7 after a month with the 262 aboard and, was amazed how thin a Leica could be. The 240/262 series really are fat.
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Old 03-01-2018   #109
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The problem with the photostophotons charts is that they use the camera ISO setting rather than an independent determination.

It is useful to also look at the DXO data, which shows that at the same camera ISO setting, the M10 is slightly less sensitive than the M240. DXO compensate for this, with the result that their sensor performance measurements (which notably exclude things such as banding or sharpness) show almost no improvement.

My experience of the M10 files so far is that they are practically indistinguishable from the M262 in real world shots below ISO3200. The straight-out-of-camera results look better, but that is because of the default processing. When images are processed equivalently (mostly a stronger curve setting applied to the M262), at lower ISOs there is no meaningful difference.

The M10 is a great camera, but if you are buying it in the hope of better image quality you probably should try playing with some RAW files first to see whether or not it will make a difference with what you shoot.
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Old 03-02-2018   #110
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I second Mark for M10's files vs M 240 family.
User of those M along with M10 for one year now, I don't see much "improved files" in real life use.
- if the thinner body is a must, go for M10
- if battery life is important, keep the M
- at first I appreciated the M10 VF more comfortable than previous, but in use real life, the other Ms are as nice to use VF
- when I need x1.25 loupe for longer lenses, the need of VF adapter is not very clever for dayly use

So for me M10 is nice to have but it has many things less than M 240 family.

As side note...
My favorite M right now is M-D bought after M10 .
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Doesn't Leica Use Just One ISO Standard?
Old 03-02-2018   #111
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Doesn't Leica Use Just One ISO Standard?

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The problem with the photostophotons charts is that they use the camera ISO setting rather than an independent determination.
...
An independent determination is impractical as there are at least four different ISO standards (link).

DxO has defined yet another standard that is not used by any manufactuer.

Unless Leica has changed their ISO standard usage between the M240 and M10, I don't see what the problem is.

The goal for digital camera design is to minimize electronic noise sources to the point where photon noise is the dominant source of uncertainty as sensor underexposure increases.[1] For many newer designs this goal has been met because read noise levels remain consent, to within ~1/3 stop, as the cameras's ISO parameter increases.

1. The camera's photon transfer characteristics describe how read noise, photon noise and dark noise affect IQ as exposure (signal level) decreases (see fig 1, 2 and 3 here.)
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Old 03-02-2018   #112
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I second Mark for M10's files vs M 240 family.
User of those M along with M10 for one year now, I don't see much "improved files" in real life use.
- if the thinner body is a must, go for M10
- if battery life is important, keep the M
- at first I appreciated the M10 VF more comfortable than previous, but in use real life, the other Ms are as nice to use VF
- when I need x1.25 loupe for longer lenses, the need of VF adapter is not very clever for dayly use

So for me M10 is nice to have but it has many things less than M 240 family.

As side note...
My favorite M right now is M-D bought after M10 .
Some people just want the latest model, and there's nothing wrong with that.
But for me, I don't see any difference in the images, but I do see a huuuge difference in price when you compare what a like new M240 goes for vs an M10, due to all those who had to dump their cameras when the M10 came out.
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Old 03-02-2018   #113
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I bought a brand new M 240 only a couple of weeks ago for a good (UK) price. I’d already tried the M10 and had been impressed by its size and viewfinder but the M 240 was nearly half the price of the M10 and, not really liking digital, it wasn’t a difficult decision to make. I’m actually quite impressed by the M 240. Functionally it seems like a real step up from the M8/9 class that I have owned previously and does everything I currently want from a digital M camera. If I was more digitally inclined I might have persuaded myself that I needed the even more polished M10 but I can’t summon that degree of enthusiasm.
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Old 03-02-2018   #114
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Some people just want the latest model, and there's nothing wrong with that.
But for me, I don't see any difference in the images, but I do see a huuuge difference in price when you compare what a like new M240 goes for vs an M10, due to all those who had to dump their cameras when the M10 came out.
It seems with M10 you still able to see images after ISO6400, not just difference.
I think, it is significant achievement for Leica AG. Before this, they were still propelling the air, while rest of the industry was already in the Space for more than decade.

Where this $6K+ camera is still in the horse buggy is IS and dust reduction.
But it gives huge room to grow and charge extra thousands.
Look how M10 users are screaming about availability to take five images in the row.
Something what $200 FujiFilm P&S was able to do in 2007...

Here is Leica AG M's future line:
M11 as big as M240, but with IS and DR.
M12 same as M11, but M10 size.

I'm ready to wait passionately to M10 become M8 priced at M12 release.
Thanks in advance for those whom you have mentioned as "who had to dump".
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Old 03-02-2018   #115
:: Mark
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Unless Leica has changed their ISO standard usage between the M240 and M10, I don't see what the problem is.
I believe that is what they have effectively done. What the M10 appears to do is equivalent to setting an M240 series camera to over-expose by some (small) amount and then pulling this down in software with a stronger curve (applied to JPEGs, but also by default with the Adobe RAW profiles). This is why people report less highlight headroom and more shadow recoverability.

What matters about the DXO methodology is not their absolute ISO determination, but that they use the same methodology consistently - making comparisons valid.

The photonstophons data is interesting, but it shows my Olympus M-M1II performing better than an M240, even with its 1/4 size sensor. This is obviously wrong when you compare actual images and it is because the manufacturer ISO labelling is not directly comparable.
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Old 03-02-2018   #116
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Thanks in advance for those whom you have mentioned as "who had to dump".
Bless them and their fickle wayward hearts.
It's how I got a beautiful like new M240 100 Anniversary edition.
aka the M100.
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Old 03-02-2018   #117
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I'll wait until the M15 comes out...if Leica or me for that matter..are still around...
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Old 03-02-2018   #118
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Funny I had M8, then M240.. sold it and went to film for a year.
The M7 is really a very nice camera. And for glasses wearers the 0.58x finder is nice.

Maybe I'll catch the M10 at a deal when the M10-P or MM10 inevitably is released.
Having had the M240, and used the M10 EVF on the X113, I wasn't satisfied enough with the incremental changes to jump immediately.
I actually spent a lot of time considering the M262.. lighter, not much bigger, and better batter than M10.

Seeing my used M8 only depreciate another 10% or so over 3 years vs my new M240 depreciate 50-60% over the same length made me a bit less excited on another new M.
The initial reports of ISO dial issues on the M10 did not excited me either.
Funnily enough M8 never needed service whereas my new M240 had 1 warranty repair plus 1 paid CLA..

For now I will wait until the next M*something is released and the used market shifts.
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It's All About The Signal and the Noise
Old 03-03-2018   #119
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It's All About The Signal and the Noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by :: Mark View Post
I believe that is what they have effectively done. What the M10 appears to do is equivalent to setting an M240 series camera to over-expose by some (small) amount and then pulling this down in software with a stronger curve (applied to JPEGs, but also by default with the Adobe RAW profiles). This is why people report less highlight headroom and more shadow recoverability.

What matters about the DXO methodology is not their absolute ISO determination, but that they use the same methodology consistently - making comparisons valid.

The photonstophons data is interesting, but it shows my Olympus M-M1II performing better than an M240, even with its 1/4 size sensor. This is obviously wrong when you compare actual images and it is because the manufacturer ISO labelling is not directly comparable.
It is not obviously wrong. The total signal level depends on the sensor area.

The total signal level also depends on quantum efficiency, full-well capacity, conversion gain and other design factors.

The noise floor (input-refered noise) must be considered as well. The Olympus sensor has about half the read noise (data) compared to all of the Leica 24 X 36 mm cameras except for the M10.

The lower noise floor impacts the total read noise levels of the raw files data.

In other words, sensor area is important, but sensor area alone does not necessarily dominate the raw file S/N.

There is no data I am aware of that shows the ISO parameter, which is actually a calibrated exposure index setting, is calibrated differently for the M240 and M10. Even the DxO data shows the M10 Sports (low-light) performance is better than the M240's. Wouldn't this indicate the exposure index calibration (ISO parameter) is similar for both cameras since DxO computes the calibrated exposure index independently of Leica?

What the photonstophons data do shows is one reason the S/N is different is because the M10's has a superior noise floor level.
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Old 03-03-2018   #120
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I'm one of the ones that did ultimately switch from an M240 to an M10. Image-quality wise I think in daylight I didn't really gain much if anything (being perfectly honest) but I do definitely see improvement in low light situations, say from 3200+. I had no complaints really about the M240 image quality, I was used to the ergonomics and I loved the seemingly limitless battery life. I would have been just fine to keep the camera, but in a semi-impulsive move last year I decided I wanted to consolidate. I wanted 1 digital body, 1 film body and the best 35mm lens I could get my hands on.

My grand plan didn't last as I eventually re-purchased two of the lenses I sold off in haste and a second film body lol, but the experience of buying a brand new M10 was a first for me and I don't regret it. I have been greatly enjoying the camera despite KNOWING that it was primarily a haptic change and less of an image quality one. I fully expect to keep and use this camera for my digital work for the next several years, barring any radical changes to upcoming digital camera tech, this does everything that I personally need in a digital body.

I fully understand that I will take the massive depreciation hit, but it will sting less in that by the time I am ready to sell the camera I will have definitely gotten my use out of it.

Would I do the swap again? Possibly, but now having experienced both I would be just fine keeping an M240 era camera for a while longer in all honesty.
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