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View Poll Results: Gear choice
Update to used M10, keep M4-2. Use only J-3 and J-12. 12 26.09%
Update to new M-E 240, keep M4-2, Summarit-M 35 2.5 7 15.22%
Get Nokton 35 1.4 II for M-E 220, keep M4-2, Summarit-M 35 2.5. 8 17.39%
Keep M-E 220, get used Monochrome, use only J-3 and J-12. 4 8.70%
Something else. 15 32.61%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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Using less film. Switching gear.
Old 12-30-2019   #1
Ko.Fe.
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Using less film. Switching gear.

I have to cut on film and DR use. Takes too much time, which I don't have anymore.
But I like to use Leica M cameras.


1. M10 fascinates me by high ISO capabilities. For street and home. I have no issues with J-3 and J-12 as the only lenses on digital. Booth are OK on film.

2. To keep M-E title with me and get new and more robust camera.

3. I have to cut on film. Will keep only small enlarger to print once a month. I also have not expensive C-41 developing available for now.
Summarit-M is bw film lens, but I have to cut my use of film and DR.

4. Monochrome is direct alternative for bw film for me. I will inkjet more instead of DR.

5. Something else? I have Olympus E-PL1 with f8 pancake and OVF. No AF, no MF.
Great for daylight and with flash indoors. I just can't use EVF, screen.
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Old 12-30-2019   #2
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M240 used... best deal in Leica.
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Old 12-30-2019   #3
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What's wrong with using the Leica you already have? I don't think you need anything new. That's not photography; that's just spending money.
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Old 12-30-2019   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
M240 used... best deal in Leica.
Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
What's wrong with using the Leica you already have? I don't think you need anything new. That's not photography; that's just spending money.
And most definitely yes.

You're getting one more stop in ISO with the M10 vs M240. Don't kid yourself.
M240 is the best used digi buy there is.

But you already have a digi Leica, and a film Leica. And have been doing fine with both so why need to change a thing? Just shift the shooting ratio over to the digi side.
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Old 12-30-2019   #5
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Thank you all!

M240 used is best deal, but I'm not sure why I will need two identical digital M.
I had M8 and M-E and sold M8. I liked it just as M-E, but I just don't like to have two of the same.
I feel more comfortable to sell more, including M-E 220, pay more and get new, with warranty M-E 240.

Quote:
What's wrong with using the Leica you already have? I don't think you need anything new. That's not photography; that's just spending money.
I like to use digital M just as film M. Well, with cutting on film I have to. Unfortunately with digital M it translates to good battery, higher ISO and weather sealing.
M-E has none of it. Tested and verified by weekly switching between M-E 220 and M4-2.
M9M has at least more useful higher ISO and it is real alternative to bw film.
Monochrome 246 is even more high ISO, bigger battery and weather sealing.
M10 has most higher ISO, this will give no limit for my street and indoor photography.
M-E barely cuts it once Sun is under horizon. I need f1.4 at least. Yet, the way I photograph needs f2.8 at least. And M8/9/M9M battery is short under cold weather. Changing battery in the dark, under falling snow and with freezing fingers is not my forte.

Quote:
You're getting one more stop in ISO with the M10 vs M240. Don't kid yourself.
Used M240 is best deal to update from used M-E 220 and I could update from S26 to S240 to get more consistent results for indoors.

BTW, I'm not sure if here is just one stop difference between M240 and M10.
I have seen totally usable, clean shots @25000 from M10.
One stop from 6400 (M240 max ISO) is 12800.
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Old 12-30-2019   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
BTW, I'm not sure if here is just one stop difference between M240 and M10.
I have seen totally usable, clean shots @25000 from M10.
One stop from 6400 (M240 max ISO) is 12800.
How did we ever get along with film?
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Old 12-30-2019   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
How did we ever get along with film?
Then I started with film in 2012 I had easy to commute job.
Fifteen minutes, no hwy commute.
Now I have two hours one way commute and lack of sleep. Can't do film, DR as before. Here is no DR on the Go train.
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Old 12-30-2019   #8
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Perhaps it is time for a heart to heart with yourself...

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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
The part you are not going to like...
The end result shows only one thing, are you capable or not. It is not about the camera and how fast lens is, to be honest.
Choose what you really like and just put it in use.
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Old 12-30-2019   #9
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This is starting to sound like a Raid thread.



You never ISO issues with your film camera. Why would you with the digital?
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Old 12-30-2019   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post


BTW, I'm not sure if here is just one stop difference between M240 and M10.
I have seen totally usable, clean shots @25000 from M10.
One stop from 6400 (M240 max ISO) is 12800.
Up to about 1600 it has about a half stop advantage in DR and a little over a stop above that. Max ISO is a couple of stops higher but with low DR.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Chart...0),Leica%20M10

Being clean at 25000 is about your noise reduction processing choices. DXO PhotoLab 3s Prime NR is amazing in what it can do.

Shawn
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Old 12-30-2019   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptpdprinter View Post
How did we ever get along with film?
We had no choice...and now you choose to have that limitation if you use film. There is nothing wrong with either.
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Old 12-30-2019   #12
Ko.Fe.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
This is starting to sound like a Raid thread.



You never ISO issues with your film camera. Why would you with the digital?

Where did I make the statement like this?
Here is my first and full statement for it, now:

For me film ISO and digital ISO are not the same. I could get usable shot on ISO400 with bw film, but to get the same I need higher ISO on digital camera.
Don't know why. Perhaps, because, digital ISO estimate is less accurate under low light. Even during the day, I could use ISO 400 film and 1/250 or 1/500. And S16. It just doesn't work this way with digital. I have to be on at 3200 and even 6400. During day use!

But I do push film for few years now. Started in 2016. 400 to 3200 and this year 3200 to 6400.
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Old 12-30-2019   #13
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Quote:
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We had no choice...
And flash (bulb) was the norm.
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Old 12-30-2019   #14
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Thank you all!

M240 used is best deal, but I'm not sure why I will need two identical digital M.

I feel more comfortable to sell more, including M-E 220, pay more and get new, with warranty M-E 240.
I'm confused... you have the CCD M-E right? or do you already have a M240 (with CMOS)?
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Old 12-30-2019   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Where did I make the statement like this?
Here is my first and full statement for it, now:

For me film ISO and digital ISO are not the same. I could get usable shot on ISO400 with bw film, but to get the same I need higher ISO on digital camera.
Don't know why. Perhaps, because, digital ISO estimate is less accurate under low light. Even during the day, I could use ISO 400 film and 1/250 or 1/500. And S16. It just doesn't work this way with digital. I have to be on at 3200 and even 6400. During day use!
Something is wrong is you need 3200 or 6400 during the day. I shoot base ISO most times during the day.

Shawn
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Old 12-30-2019   #16
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Something is wrong is you need 3200 or 6400 during the day. I shoot base ISO most times during the day.

Shawn
He is in the frozen North, eh.
Only 6 hours of weak daylight.
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Old 12-30-2019   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guth View Post
Perhaps it is time for a heart to heart with yourself...
It was about switching from one film camera to another film camera. For reason to feel comfy in hotel meeting rooms.
This thread is about thoughts how to move towards from film back to digital.
If I'm about just to keep digital camera I have now, I need to use flash or f1.4 lens. I can't see how I could use f1.4 for my photography (walking streets) or the reason to flash people. I'm not even E.Kim.
One thing is to feel comfy about gear price tag another is to be comfy to flash people just for no reason rather than my own fun.

Perhaps I should I start kickstarter for M series batteries grip?
People are paying high prices just to have some bulk for extra crank on the bottom of film M.
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Old 12-30-2019   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
I'm confused... you have the CCD M-E right? or do you already have a M240 (with CMOS)?
Only M-E 220 for now. But here is M-E 240. More ISO, more battery charge and weather sealing.
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Old 12-30-2019   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn View Post
Something is wrong is you need 3200 or 6400 during the day. I shoot base ISO most times during the day.
Perhaps we don't all photograph in direct sunlight all off the time. Also, keeping your shutter speed high enough while in low light is a great thing in digital.
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Old 12-30-2019   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn View Post
Something is wrong is you need 3200 or 6400 during the day. I shoot base ISO most times during the day.

Shawn
Quote:
Originally Posted by maigo View Post
He is in the frozen North, eh.
Only 6 hours of weak daylight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Perhaps we don't all photograph in direct sunlight all off the time. Also, keeping your shutter speed high enough while in low light is a great thing in digital.
Exactly right! From November to March.



f6.7 1/500 ISO2500 and M-E just craps out...
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Old 12-30-2019   #21
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Perhaps we don't all photograph in direct sunlight all off the time. Also, keeping your shutter speed high enough while in low light is a great thing in digital.
He was talking about photography during the day, not needing to keep shutter speed up during low light.

I am fully aware about keeping shutter speed up in low light. But even in that case less than 4% of my library has shots from 6400 or above, about 6% from 3200 and up and about 13% if I drop to 1600 and up.

Shawn
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Old 12-30-2019   #22
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Exactly right! From November to March.



f6.7 1/500 ISO2500 and M-E just craps out...
Yeah, the magenta and cyan color noise/shifts are pretty bad in that.

Shawn
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Old 12-30-2019   #23
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Being clean at 25000 is about your noise reduction processing choices. DXO PhotoLab 3s Prime NR is amazing in what it can do.
And example of this:

ISO 2500 on the M240 with no NR, full size.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...e820723e_o.jpg

Same but with DXO Prime NR, full size

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...55dd0351_o.jpg

Shawn
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Old 12-30-2019   #24
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And ISO 25,600 on a XP2 with OOC JPEG. I don't have anything color at that ISO.



The M10 has similar DR at that ISO but more read noise.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Chart...Leica%20M10_14

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Chart...o2,Leica%20M10

Shawn
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Old 12-30-2019   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I have to cut on film and DR use. Takes too much time, which I don't have anymore.
But I like to use Leica M cameras.


1. M10 fascinates me by high ISO capabilities. For street and home. I have no issues with J-3 and J-12 as the only lenses on digital. Booth are OK on film.
Excuse me for my ignorance, but what does J-3 and J-12 refer to? Russian Jupiter lenses?
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Old 12-30-2019   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
It was about switching from one film camera to another film camera.
Yeah, well it was one of those false moments of gear angst we all go through, except this was really crazy because in this case it was about supplementing the M4-2 with a Bessa 3RM because it could be had at a reasonable price and was in near mint condition - plus it could be mailed through Royal Canadian Post - or whatever it is - because the guy lived in British Columbia, Canada.

And why the Bessa? Because the M4-2 had an on-again / off-again light leak that might or might not actually be a light leak. Then magically the problem went away - but the take away was THE REBIRTH OF KO-FE the indefatigable if slightly jinxed FILM PHOTOGRAPHER.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
(or For reason to feel comfy in hotel meeting rooms.
WHAT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
This thread is about thoughts how to move towards from film back to digital.
OH, NO. NO!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
If I'm about just to keep digital camera I have now, I need to use flash or f1.4 lens. I can't see how I could use f1.4 for my photography (walking streets) or the reason to flash people. I'm not even E.Kim.
One thing is to feel comfy about gear price tag another is to be comfy to flash people just for no reason rather than my own fun.
Yeah, walking around with a flash lands you in jail - though it would be cool to see a series taken with flashes. The other thing is this . . . . though.
USING A DIGITAL CAMERA IS NOT PHOTOGRAPHY. It is digital imaging.
I do it myself but it is not the same as drawing light on an actual physical substance (film) and then printing an image from substance to substance (paper).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I have to cut on film and DR use. Takes too much time, which I don't have anymore.
But I like to use Leica M cameras.
Why? If all you're doing is digital imaging, why not look at Olympus or SONY or Fuji. All have better options than Leica and are far less costly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
4. Monochrome is direct alternative for bw film for me. I will inkjet more instead of DR.
ALTERNATIVE? Well it is not anywhere near the same experience. Nor do I think the result is the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
5. Something else? I have Olympus E-PL1 with f8 pancake and OVF. No AF, no MF.
Great for daylight and with flash indoors. I just can't use EVF, screen.
Fuji then - with its dual viewfinder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Then I started with film in 2012 I had easy to commute job.
Fifteen minutes, no hwy commute.
Now I have two hours one way commute and lack of sleep. Can't do film, DR as before. Here is no DR on the Go train.
I've been there - and so have many friends. You get a room near your work and come home less often - or you end up a zombie. No wonder you have camera angst again.
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Old 12-30-2019   #27
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Whatever makes you happy, Kostya. But I voted for the M10.


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Old 12-30-2019   #28
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Originally Posted by traveler_101 View Post
I've been there - and so have many friends. You get a room near your work and come home less often - or you end up a zombie. No wonder you have camera angst again.
Are you sure you are still not?

Family friends, ex-customers, local consul and hundreds of thousands people in GTA commuting this way Monday to Friday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn View Post
And example of this:

ISO 2500 on the M240 with no NR, full size.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...e820723e_o.jpg

Same but with DXO Prime NR, full size
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...55dd0351_o.jpg

Shawn
DPR has M10 test files hidden here https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-alpha-7r-ii/5

Strange, high ISO in the test doesn't looks like on real life images from M10 I have seen.

https://www.streetsilhouettes.com/ho...ght-comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by james.liam View Post
Excuse me for my ignorance, but what does J-3 and J-12 refer to? Russian Jupiter lenses?
Yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by farlymac View Post
Whatever makes you happy, Kostya. But I voted for the M10.

PF
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Old 12-30-2019   #29
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Quote:
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Something is wrong is you need 3200 or 6400 during the day. I shoot base ISO most times during the day.

Shawn
Agreed. I live further north, and shadow areas with sunshine are ISO 200, F5.6, 1/150

I did some shots at 800 in direct sun, 2 hours before darkness: F7.1, 1/2900 +2/3. Slightly underexposed but no blown highlights with detail in the shadows. Used X-Pro 1.
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Old 12-30-2019   #30
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Simple a problem all to common here. He wants justification to spend money on gear he does not need. We all do it while seeking justification from our peers.

So, go buy what you want.
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Old 12-30-2019   #31
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Simple a problem all to common here. He wants justification to spend money on gear he does not need. We all do it while seeking justification from our peers.

So, go buy what you want.
Respectfully agree and disagree. The old principle ("it depends") applies here. With cameras and photography in general, just what constitutes needs or does not need? Yes, we could all make do with a basic camera and one lens, but would that be fun? For some, maybe. For me, no.

He wants to sell in order to buy. A sensible way for those of us not owners of a mint or a few oil wells to buy new gear.

In my film days I did much the same. Eventually when my architectural practice became profitable, I fell into the trap so many of us have done and bought and bought and bought. At one point I had 60+ cameras including six Hasselblads - three of these were ELs, for which I believe to this day I should have had my head examined.

It has taken me seven years to clear this stock. In the summing up I'm probably a couple of thousand dollars worse off - I suppose I could say I've had the fun of playing with these cameras, but no. Of my three ElL, I used one for a professional shoot of a Melbourne church restoration in 2009, and underexposed the entire lot by two stops. Scanning saved me.

All the Leicas Kostya has referred to have distinct and separate advantages.

He has asked us some excellent questions, and generated much fun for those who answered.

We can do with more of this on rangefinderforum. Agreeing to disagree has many plus-points, and with elaborations/explanations some good data gets posted and shared.

Am enjoying the read. Carry on please!!
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Old 12-31-2019   #32
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Quote:
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Perhaps it is time for a heart to heart with yourself...
Lol I was just going to go looking for that quote
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Old 12-31-2019   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
This thread is about thoughts how to move towards from film back to digital.
If I'm about just to keep digital camera I have now, I need to use flash or f1.4 lens. I can't see how I could use f1.4 for my photography (walking streets) or the reason to flash people. I'm not even E.Kim.
One thing is to feel comfy about gear price tag another is to be comfy to flash people just for no reason rather than my own fun.
Yes, I understand that one situation involved film -> film and your situation involves film -> digital. However I thought that the advice you offered still seemed applicable. Perhaps I do not fully understand the issue you are facing. I for one have enjoyed quite a number of the images you've shared that were made using your M4-2. I should state that I am not really familiar with the M-E 220. If you have not used or needed a f1.4 lens or a flash with your M4-2, why would those items be needed with the M-E 220? Is the M-E 220 simply not as sensitive as the film you've been using with the M4-2? Finally, E.Kim?

My apologies for all of the questions ó just trying to better understand.
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Old 12-31-2019   #34
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I was curious so 'Googled' the M-E 220

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leica_M-E

I try to wear a GAS mask; It's too easy to get carried away. In the rational light of day I'm ok with my M6 Clasic and the M240, even though the M6 sees no more than a dozen rolls of film a year; all processed commercially and scanned at home. I have a fridge-full of film that should last me some time into the future.
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Old 12-31-2019   #35
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DPR has M10 test files hidden here https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-alpha-7r-ii/5

Strange, high ISO in the test doesn't looks like on real life images from M10 I have seen.

https://www.streetsilhouettes.com/ho...ght-comparison
The DPR file is being viewed 1:1 and without NR being applied.

The website you linked is showing files that are downsized (which hides noise), with NR being applied and with several overexposed files which also hides noise as it pushed the image further up from the noise floor. Even still luminance noise is obvious in those pictures as is banding.

This is the ISO 25,000.



That is full of luminance noise, still has chroma noise, banding and loads of detail lost to NR. And that is at 1.5 megapixels.

Here is about a 4.1 megapixel version of that file. Click it to magnify after it is opened.

Larger Version

Really the only clean image on that site is the one shot ISO invariant. The 5 stop push is equivalent to ISO3200. But still only seeing it as a 1.5megapixel file.

When looked at larger the noise is more obvious but is still a very workable image.

Shawn
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Old 12-31-2019   #36
Larry Cloetta
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Kostya, the advice here has been aimed at trying to solve the camera/photography problem that you are feeling that you have. What I am going to say isn’t flippant or dismissive. You don’t have a camera problem, you have a commuting problem. The most precious thing we have is time; life’s too short to spend throwing away even a week of it commuting 4 hours a day. The fact that others do it is irrelevant. No one has to do that, it’s a prison of their own making. There is never only one job one can work at, there is never only one place one can work, there is never only one place one can live. It’s not the Soviet system any more for you. People get tunnel vision and convince themselves that they have fewer choices than the multitude of choices they really have, that everyone has. People convince themselves, or let others convince them, that they have no better options, but that is never true for anyone, not in the long run. No one. People not confined to prisons often make their own, then justify it to themselves.
I enjoy your contributions here, but I don’t hope you get a different camera, nor do I think that a higher ISO capability is going to answer any problem you have. A daily four hour commute is a life destroyer, for real; shooting more digital and less film is an answer to nothing, because the minor camera hardware changes you are considering will prove to be both meaningless and ultimately unhelpful in the face of the overall situation.
Best of luck, sincerely.
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Old 12-31-2019   #37
shawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
Kostya, the advice here has been aimed at trying to solve the camera/photography problem that you are feeling that you have. What I am going to say isnít flippant or dismissive. You donít have a camera problem, you have a commuting problem. The most precious thing we have is time; lifeís too short to spend throw away even a week of it commuting 4 hours a day. The fact that others do it is irrelevant. No one has to do that, itís a prison of their own making. There is never only one job one can work at, there is never only one place one can work, there is never only one place one can live. Itís not the Soviet system any more for you. People get tunnel vision and convince themselves that they have fewer choices than the multitude of choices they really have, that everyone has. People convince themselves, or let others convince them, that they have no better options, but that is never true for anyone, not in the long run. No one. People not confined to prisons often make their own, then justify it to themselves.
I enjoy your contributions here, but I donít hope you get a different camera, nor do I think that a higher ISO capability is going to answer any problem you have. A daily four hour commute is a life destroyer, for real; shooting more digital and less film is an answer to nothing, because the minor camera hardware changes you are considering will prove to be both meaningless and ultimately unhelpful in the face of the overall situation.
Best of luck, sincerely.
Excellent example of treating the problem, not the symptom!

Shawn
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Old 12-31-2019   #38
bullterrier
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https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=commuters
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Old 12-31-2019   #39
Rob-F
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Kostya I think if you got an M Monochrom, it would be put to good use in your hands. So if that time has come, maybe get the Monochrom, try to keep the Summarit, and sell what you need to make it work.
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Old 12-31-2019   #40
jsrockit
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Originally Posted by traveler_101 View Post
The other thing is this . . . . though.
USING A DIGITAL CAMERA IS NOT PHOTOGRAPHY. It is digital imaging.
I do it myself but it is not the same as drawing light on an actual physical substance (film).
Whatís next, a photography is not Art thread?
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