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Old 07-23-2019   #41
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A mint, full box Leica M6 Millennium now goes for +$ 4,500.
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Old 07-23-2019   #42
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The last global economic downturn coincided with the maturation of digital photography and the abandonment of film photography by most consumers, which really caused the price of anything film related to soften and even collapse - even vintage Leica gear to some extent. Now that is over (for now at least), we are in an era when classic photography is becoming a cult niche hobby of sorts. Thus there is some degree of sustained demand from particular buyers, coupled with the almost complete lack of new (high quality) film camera production. These factors are driving the prices of the better quality cameras and lenses to high levels. I don't see an end to this.
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Old 07-23-2019   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Murphy View Post
The last global economic downturn coincided with the maturation of digital photography and the abandonment of film photography by most consumers, which really caused the price of anything film related to soften and even collapse - even vintage Leica gear to some extent. Now that is over (for now at least), we are in an era when classic photography is becoming a cult niche hobby of sorts. Thus there is some degree of sustained demand from particular buyers, coupled with the almost complete lack of new (high quality) film camera production. These factors are driving the prices of the better quality cameras and lenses to high levels. I don't see an end to this.
Well you could be right - assuming the next downturn is a correction rather than a collapse, of course. But if you are correct, which is to say that demand will continue to climb, then perhaps some enterprising firm will start building film cameras again.
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Old 07-23-2019   #44
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There must be a business opportunity in flipping film cameras, not just Leicas of course. Basically all you need is buy now and sell in a year. It helps to have a review site. Everything someone reviews well has shot up into the stratosphere. This has happened to all the 90s high quality p&s cameras, for example.
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Old 07-23-2019   #45
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Originally Posted by sanmich View Post
I think the prices for most used Leica M bodies have seen a steep jump in the last year.
This is while I don't see much change for MP/M7 prices.
M6 classic are now sold between 1500 and 2000 USD.
Clean M2/3/4 above 1k$
Anything to explain this?
I can't speak for the M6/P/7 as I've never paid much attention to them, but is $1k for a clean M2/3/4 really a steep jump? And has it really happened in the last year?

I bought my M2 (very clean from a highly regarded store with warranty) for about $1000aud in 2014. I started to pay close attention to M2/3 prices about 12 months prior to that, and have continued to pay attention ever since. My observation has been a steady increase (which I would expect) but no significant jumps.

Compare this to the 35mm film market in general, where 'premium' P&S' (Contax T2/3, Olympus Stylus Epic, Ricoh GR1 etc.) have seen price increases over the same period of 2x, 3x, 4x and more, and the price increase for Leica M seem pretty tame. For example, you will pay more for a T3 nowadays than a serviced M3...
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Old 07-23-2019   #46
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Originally Posted by olifaunt View Post
There must be a business opportunity in flipping film cameras, not just Leicas of course. Basically all you need is buy now and sell in a year. It helps to have a review site. Everything someone reviews well has shot up into the stratosphere. This has happened to all the 90s high quality p&s cameras, for example.
That sounds like a formula for losing money! You can't actually predict the future based on previous trends. If you only look at prices from the past couple of years, then yes, things seem to have steadily risen. But step back a bit further to 2007-2011 (Chinese buying frenzy) or the 1980s-1990s (Japanese bubble economy) and recent price trends don't look so impressive.
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Old 07-23-2019   #47
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... is $1k for a clean M2/3/4 really a steep jump?
Not at all: Those sorts of prices would've seemed decent in the late 1990s.
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Old 07-23-2019   #48
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am glad got my film Leica itch scratched in previous decade, now a content Sony shooter

edit: instead of shooting analog, am more interested try printing analog one day. digital enlargers exist, and would be fun to try.
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Old 07-23-2019   #49
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What may be happening...or at least part of what may be happening (with used prices)...goes like this - somewhere around 09 digital started to get good enough so that folks had to put aside the old paradigm and pickup this new deal. I sold off film blocks when I got my first digital block and then proceeded to buy digital cameras for the next several years. So did every family who needed these things for birthdays Christmas etc.

Now a D700 is like $400 (2012 a lot more)...in good shape. All those great film blocks that were forsaken for the digital experience are coming back into fashion. Ever shorter in supply. More valuable. Do any of you feel like you have a digital hangover? Or are you maybe like me and come to a place where I have two cameras and one set of lenses that you run with? I shoot a Df...can be bought for a dime. My F2 (very nice black eye level) will bring a nickel. Interesting imo

M9 anyone?
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Old 07-23-2019   #50
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In the end film is much more fun. Who has one of these?


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Old 07-23-2019   #51
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Glad I scored my M6 .85x for $700 a few years ago. Along with my Nikon SP 2005, I'm set on classic 35mm mechanical rangefinders for the rest of my life. I'll be interested to watch prices fluctuate.
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Old 07-23-2019   #52
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Social media is great advertising, too. People see what other photogs are using, and they think "If I got the same gear, I could take photos like that!"
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Old 07-23-2019   #53
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shooting film is a trend now, as it used to be i guess.
at least; hanging out with a film camera (but actually using iphone to take photos)
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Old 07-23-2019   #54
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Originally Posted by aizan View Post
Social media is great advertising, too. People see what other photogs are using, and they think "If I got the same gear, I could take photos like that!"
I don’t think it’s all about that.

For those of us from the digital generation (including me), we didn’t grow up with these cameras and don’t even know many of them exist. I think a big part of social media’s role is highlighting stuff we didn’t know about. Ie. “that personal is using an interesting looking camera I’ve never seen before, I’d like to try that...”

Which, of course, pushes up demand and prices.
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Old 07-24-2019   #55
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I think people are getting tired of buying film cameras that dont last long for high prices and they decide to pay a little more for Leicas knowing the build quality wont disappoint them.
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Old 07-24-2019   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Murphy View Post
The last global economic downturn coincided with the maturation of digital photography and the abandonment of film photography by most consumers, which really caused the price of anything film related to soften and even collapse - even vintage Leica gear to some extent.
I remember it differently... Leica gear never collapsed. The M9 re-invigorated the market for Leica lenses...
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Old 07-24-2019   #57
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Originally Posted by DanskDynamit View Post
I think people are getting tired of buying film cameras that dont last long for high prices and they decide to pay a little more for Leicas knowing the build quality wont disappoint them.
Which cameras are people buying that don`t last?
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Old 07-24-2019   #58
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Social media is great advertising, too. People see what other photogs are using, and they think "If I got the same gear, I could take photos like that!"
Yes, this is something beginners always think. If your photos are great, it is your camera...
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Old 07-24-2019   #59
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Astute observations all ^^^

M2/3 have indeed steadily risen but not excessively so. They didn’t suffer the collapse in price as did Canikon film bodies. The former, pushing 60+ years in age often do need a CLA and lack metering and this may blunt a more steep rise. The compacts have greater appeal to the crowd as they often came with superb optics, competent AF and sophisticated metering. A good example of stasis is the R8 with prices in the mid-$400 range and holding steady; pure MF has a small niche of adherents. But few, if any can be repaired once circuit boards fail, which beckons the question why no one has yet to jump in again, especially Ricoh.
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Old 07-24-2019   #60
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I remember it differently... Leica gear never collapsed. The M9 re-invigorated the market for Leica lenses...
John,

I was flush with cash in 2007 during the credit crisis, and I found that people were selling their treasures. Of course I'm talking specifically of prices of used gear.

Not that Adorama sells cheap, but I did a lot of cherry picking there. I was new to Leica and did my research and bought a 75 Lux V2 for $1.8K that was made in Germany (holds a $100.00 premium) and a 35 Cron V4 also made in Germany for $1250.00.

Years ago I unloaded these lenses and pretty much doubled my money.

It was about a year later in 2008 that I bought my odd Wetzlar M6 titanium prototype that predates the M6 Titanium by about 5 years. I paid only $1K.

I still own my Wetzlar M6 Ti prototype.

The credit crisis was a very-very good time for treasure hunting because like in the stock market there was mucho forced selling and people had to sell their treasures.

Of course the lenses were dead mint. I found it remarkable.

I believe in "regression-to-the-mean" and because of actions of the FED the housing bubble kinda got reinflated. At this point real estate has to go sideways for a long time if you believe in regression to the mean, and pretty much owning a home likely will be a "dead asset" (again if you believe in regression to the mean). In a way the housing market never really bottomed.

The debt loads, public, private, and corporate, are all at high levels, so again economics 101 says eventually the debt will become a problem. These policies will be hard to change and will be a challenge to navigate. What a mess...

Hard to say if the FED, World Bank and others could rescue us from another collapse. When the shoe drops it could be uglier than 2007-2008. The banks don't have so much ammo, interest rates are already low and look to go lower.

Meanwhile there still is mucho overcapacity... Understand that overcapacity=deflation.

Cal
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Old 07-24-2019   #61
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John,

I was flush with cash in 2007 during the credit crisis, and I found that people were selling their treasures. Of course I'm talking specifically of prices of used gear.

Not that Adorama sells cheap, but I did a lot of cherry picking there. I was new to Leica and did my research and bought a 75 Lux V2 for $1.8K that was made in Germany (holds a $100.00 premium) and a 35 Cron V4 also made in Germany for $1250.00.
I understand Cal. They were good deals. However, they were still luxury goods selling at luxury prices. They were still expensive. It didn`t collapse, the price just went down. I bought a version 2 or 3 Summicron 35mm for $600 in 91. I think my 50mm summicron (maybe V2...it was black) was $400. To me, at the time, those were still luxurious prices hahaha.
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Old 07-24-2019   #62
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Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
I remember it differently... Leica gear never collapsed. The M9 re-invigorated the market for Leica lenses...
John,

I was flush with cash in 2007 during the credit crisis, and I found that people were selling their treasures. Of course I'm talking specifically of prices of used gear.

Not that Adorama sells cheap, but I did a lot of cherry picking there. I was new to Leica and did my research and bought a 75 Lux V2 for $1.8K that was made in Germany (holds a $100.00 premium) and a 35 Cron V4 also made in Germany for $1250.00.

Years ago I unloaded these lenses and pretty much doubled my money.

It was about a year later that I bought my odd Wetzlar M6 titanium prototype that predates the M6 Titanium by about 5 years. I paid only $1K.

The credit crisis was a very good time for treasure hunting because like in the stock market there was mucho forced selling and people had to sell their treasures.

Of course the lenses were dead mint. I found it remarkable.

I believe in "regression-to-the-mean" and because of actions of the FED the housing bubble kinda got reinflated. At this point real estate has to go sideways for a long time if you believe in regression to the mean, and pretty much owning a home likely will be a "dead asset" (again if you believe in regression to the mean).

The debt loads, public, private, and corporate, are all at high levels, so again economics 101 says eventually the debt will become a problem.

Hard to say if the FED, World Bank and others could rescue us from another collapse. When the shoe drops it could be uglier than 2007-2008. The banks don't have so much ammo, interest rates are already low and look to go lower.

Meanwhile there still is mucho overcapacity... Understand that overcapacity=deflation.

Cal
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Old 07-24-2019   #63
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I understand Cal. They were good deals. However, they were still luxury goods selling at luxury prices. They were still expensive. It didn`t collapse, the price just went down. I bought a version 2 or 3 Summicron 35mm for $600 in 91. I think my 50mm summicron (maybe V2...it was black) was $400. To me, at the time, those were still luxurious prices hahaha.
John,

I understand. For CF's like us it still is mucho money. Still I'm mucho glad for the "sale" price.

Your context that no matter what, even in a fire sale, that Leica still is a luxury good.

BTW I a wait the next "fire-sale" that seems to be brewing.

Cal
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Old 07-24-2019   #64
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I think the prices for most used Leica M bodies have seen a steep jump in the last year.
This is while I don't see much change for MP/M7 prices.
M6 classic are now sold between 1500 and 2000 USD.
Clean M2/3/4 above 1k$
Anything to explain this?
The reason is the increasing interest in classic film photography. Everytime I talk to my local stores, labs, online distributors they tell me that the demand for film is increasing again. Latest news from them was that there are shortages in film supply because of (too fast) increasing demand. Therefore some manufacturers have problems keeping up with demand. That is also the reason why films are re-introduced on the market. And if you look at film photography on instagram, facebook and youtube: it is booming.
And besides Leica you will also find lots of other cameras where the used prices have increased very much in the last 2-3 years. In some cases you now already have to pay former new prices for the used cameras.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 07-24-2019   #65
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...question why no one has yet to jump in again, especially Ricoh.

A good illustration of the state of the industry begins at 7:40 in Mirko BŲddecker's (Adox) keynote presentation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4-WLDm-e8A

So yes, from his standpoint, it's a revival and looks healthy, but as with production of new phonograph records, it's still a niche market. $5000 for a new film Leica M may not be a bad price for what is likely a very low-volume item.
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Old 07-24-2019   #66
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If there is a recession..or depression coming...film will be dead..
As in...too expensive to shoot..
And film cams will be cheap again..relatively..
Thing is...sooner or later..these cameras will be a real bear to fix..as the techs retire or die off..
Who knows how things will end up..
But I would enjoy the resurgence today...as tomorrow...well..
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Old 07-24-2019   #67
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The reason is the increasing interest in classic film photography. Everytime I talk to my local stores, labs, online distributors they tell me that the demand for film is increasing again. Latest news from them was that there are shortages in film supply because of (too fast) increasing demand. Therefore some manufacturers have problems keeping up with demand. That is also the reason why films are re-introduced on the market. And if you look at film photography on instagram, facebook and youtube: it is booming.
And besides Leica you will also find lots of other cameras where the used prices have increased very much in the last 2-3 years. In some cases you now already have to pay former new prices for the used cameras.

Cheers, Jan
I think photography in general is booming... so many images. It's almost as ubiquitous as writing!
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Old 07-24-2019   #68
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If there is a recession..or depression coming...film will be dead..
No.
Film is almost 140 years old. During its lifetime it went through countless recessions and depressions, including two world-wars, the big depression of the 30ies, and the paradigma change of the digital revolution.
Film has survived all that.
And it will definitely survive the coming recessions.
I went through several recessions in my lifetime and several financial crisis. I never stopped shooting film in these times.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 07-24-2019   #69
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B&W film will remain, most likely. Color may fade away, so to speak.
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Old 07-24-2019   #70
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Used prices for Leica and other good film cameras are creeping up. Not sure why that is a surprise to anyone.
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Old 07-24-2019   #71
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B&W film will remain, most likely. Color may fade away, so to speak.
No.
Depending on the regional market, color film has a market share of 75-90%. It is by far the more popular film type.
BW film is a niche compared to that.
Both will remain, because both have increasing demand.


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Old 07-24-2019   #72
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I meant it to happen if/when there is a recession. You can develop B&W film at home for pennies.
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Old 07-24-2019   #73
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My guess is because Leica no longer has the capability to repair the M7, coupled with the fact that the M7 is electronic and will be more prone to failure over time, they made the decision to discontinue it
After reading this earlier today, I contacted Leica repair in New Jersey. They currently repair the M7 and will continue to for the foreseeable future.

Iíve had my M7 for 15 years and the only issue Iíve had with it is that the DX reader failed. Leica repaired the then 8 year old camera with no charge. I see no reason that it shouldnít last as long as my 1969 Canon QL17, a now 50 year old electronic AE camera.
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Old 07-24-2019   #74
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I meant it to happen if/when there is a recession. You can develop B&W film at home for pennies.
You can do the same with color, too.
And here in my country you get color film developed in all drugstore chain shops for extremnely low 0.95Ä to 2.55Ä.
And as explained above, recessions have never been a danger for film and will never be. Especially not now with a significantly increasing market.

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Old 07-24-2019   #75
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As long as the world has colour there will be colour film.
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Old 07-24-2019   #76
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M5s are still relatively affordable!
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Old 07-24-2019   #77
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After reading this earlier today, I contacted Leica repair in New Jersey. They currently repair the M7 and will continue to for the foreseeable future.

Iíve had my M7 for 15 years and the only issue Iíve had with it is that the DX reader failed. Leica repaired the then 8 year old camera with no charge. I see no reason that it shouldnít last as long as my 1969 Canon QL17, a now 50 year old electronic AE camera.
How dare you base your comments on facts and research!
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Old 07-24-2019   #78
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Not sure what availability of color vs B&W film has to do with film camera prices. Prices are strictly set by the ratio of demand to the fixed supply of particular camera models.
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Old 07-24-2019   #79
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Roland Rangefinder - I learned about these and tried to find a reasonably priced one. Great feature set and looks very compact. Wish they were more popular when new because the prices are astronomical!

I settled on a Welta Weltur 6x4.5.

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In the end film is much more fun. Who has one of these?


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Old 07-24-2019   #80
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Which cameras are people buying that don`t last?
I personally have had two Stylus Epics (mju II), two Canonets, and one Electro 35 all die on me in the time i've owned my M6... as an example.
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