Old 03-03-2017   #41
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Cal, it was priced too low and was not the norm.
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Old 03-03-2017   #42
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It is a buyer's market now.

Soon it will be:

M8: $1000
M9: $2000
M240: $2500
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Old 03-03-2017   #43
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I was laughed at...a few weeks ago..by most here on the forum..when I predicted a huge downturn in M used prices..
But..
I think the pricing is just getting realistic now..and really..for a used M cam...those thousands of $$..come on..that was a dream..
Yes.. the M10 killed all of that..as it should be..finally Leica got the cam down to reasonable size and specs..
But I would suggest..if you want to buy an M10...buy now or soon..because if our lovely president gets his way..there will be a 25% to 30% import tax on these kind of items coming into the country..and yes..that will kill a lot of sales..and businesses too..
But for an M10..priced at close to 9K..will be stupid..and a non starter for many..
But that remains to be seen..
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Old 03-03-2017   #44
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In a few years when Leica brings out the M11, we can update this thread to the “M11 has destroyed the used market.”

Jim B.
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Old 03-03-2017   #45
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Cal, it was priced too low and was not the norm.
John,

No doubt. I was just responding to Ben's post. It was at a remarkable price.

Normal pricing surely is higher.

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Old 03-03-2017   #46
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Yeah, many prices quoted in this thread are not true and the prices haven't changed much after the M10 announcement. There have been sub $4000 Monchroms for at least 6 months now. The M9 still goes for more than $2500 routinely.
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Old 03-03-2017   #47
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Picked up a m240 few weeks ago for 3k, can probably sell it for 2.5k in a year or so. So the cost of ownership is about 500 bucks.
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Old 03-03-2017   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post
I was laughed at...a few weeks ago..by most here on the forum..when I predicted a huge downturn in M used prices..
But..
I think the pricing is just getting realistic now..and really..for a used M cam...those thousands of $$..come on..that was a dream..
Yes.. the M10 killed all of that..as it should be..finally Leica got the cam down to reasonable size and specs..

Actually Leica didnt do anything, the market did.

Quote:
But I would suggest..if you want to buy an M10...buy now or soon..because if our lovely president gets his way..there will be a 25% to 30% import tax on these kind of items coming into the country..and yes..that will kill a lot of sales..and businesses too..
But for an M10..priced at close to 9K..will be stupid..and a non starter for many..
But that remains to be seen..


Like everything else, it depends on market, demand/offer. If people buy them for 3k, thats the realistic price. If people dont buy them, they will come down. Easy as that. Also depends on how fast the current owner wants to sell the camera. The fact tha I cant afford a 5k-9k camera doesnt make the price stupid, just make me a poor guy

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Old 03-03-2017   #49
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Yeah, many prices quoted in this thread are not true and the prices haven't changed much after the M10 announcement. There have been sub $4000 Monchroms for at least 6 months now. The M9 still goes for more than $2500 routinely.
Actually, they are true. I've been watching very closely. There were two M9 for sale on the same day, side by side, in the classifieds for $2495. This was a couple months a go.

You can say low prices are an anomaly but they are merely the future price now. That is the market. If you are very patient higher prices may sell. M6 have held their value very nicely. Digital won't.
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Old 03-03-2017   #50
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Actually, they are true. I've been watching very closely. There were two M9 for sale on the same day, side by side, in the classifieds for $2495. This was a couple months a go.
I didn't say that two cameras couldn't be sold for less than $2500. I said that they still routinely go for more.

Quote:
You can say low prices are an anomaly but they are merely the future price now. That is the market. If you are very patient higher prices may sell. M6 have held their value very nicely. Digital won't.
Ok, but you've been tracking prices for how long and what evidence do you have as to the market as a whole? I think many of you that are waiting for a super cheap M240 will continue to have to wait. Yesterday's RFF ad WAS an anomaly. If there is any small format digital camera that holds its value better than all others, it is a Leica.
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Old 03-03-2017   #51
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Yesterday's RFF ad WAS an anomaly. If there is any small format digital camera that holds its value better than all others, it is a Leica.
John,

I thought it was mucho cheap, and I knew it would sell fast. A boxed Leica digital (M-240) for $2695.00.

Buy low sell high. Pretty much a camera day-trade if one has the cash flow to flip the camera.

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Old 03-03-2017   #52
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The point is M9's sell for for $2500. If you want one for that price you can get them. That is the market. You may have to wait and be ready to pounce, if you are a buyer, but they will appear. If you are a seller and want substantially more than that, it will sell, but the seller will have to wait. Markets in used goods have many prices. Prices on RFF tend to be lower than other places, like shops and e bay. I only refer to RFF prices.

According to chatter online, Leica nailed it with M10. This could cause a faster depreciation for previous models, or it could cause more people to be introduced to all things Leica, and result in stable used prices. Time will tell. Time is not kind to old digital cameras, perhaps less so to Leicas, as mentioned; certainly not immune.
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Old 03-03-2017   #53
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Do note that Ebay and forum sale prices fluctuate up and down FAR more than pricing from actual dealers. Purchasing expensive camera equipment from sales on Ebay incurs significantly greater risk, and less service, than purchasing the same equipment from a good camera equipment dealer.

It's "social networking meets new camera frenzy" on Ebay.

G
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Old 03-03-2017   #54
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The point is M9's sell for for $2500. If you want one for that price you can get them. That is the market. You may have to wait and be ready to pounce, if you are a buyer, but they will appear. If you are a seller and want substantially more than that, it will sell, but the seller will have to wait. Markets in used goods have many prices. Prices on RFF tend to be lower than other places, like shops and e bay. I only refer to RFF prices.
But we can both be right with what we said. You said that the prices quoted here are true. $2000 M9, $1000 M8, $2500 M240 have been stated. They are not true.

Quote:
According to chatter online, Leica nailed it with M10. This could cause a faster depreciation for previous models, or it could cause more people to be introduced to all things Leica, and result in stable used prices. Time will tell. Time is not kind to old digital cameras, perhaps less so to Leicas, as mentioned; certainly not immune.
Let's remember that the M8 is 10 years old. Still $1100 - 1500 on the used market.
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Old 03-03-2017   #55
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The more of these cameras Leica sells, the lower the resell prices will become.
There is just nothing whatsoever about Leica that makes it different than any other consumable.

I'm not sure if anyone is truly surprised by the seemingly rapid depreciation.
If they are they should not be. It's the same market force that effects any consumable item.
If one does not want to loose $1k + per year on a Leica DRF.... buy a 5year old used one rather than new..
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Old 03-03-2017   #56
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I don't really follow other digital brand, but I wonder if cameras of the same vintage from Nikon, Canon, fuji, etc depreicate at the same rate. My gut guess would be that Leicas would generally depreicate more slowly.

For instance, cameras launched in 2012:
-Leica M (240) $7,000
-Fuji X-pro $1,700

2017 approx. used pricing and depreciation from original MSRP:
-M240 $3000 -57%
-X-Pro $300 -82%

Not the beste example, I know (the 240 was just recently replace and is still for sale new) and the X-Pro is now well into its second egeneration, but at least it supports my gut feeling :P
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Old 03-03-2017   #57
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Price is so dependent on condition, box, manuals, and all the rest when it comes to Leica.

M9 value also has the new sensor factor.

M8s are surprising actually, considering age and lack of repair options.
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Old 03-03-2017   #58
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The difference there is that the depreciation alone is nearly 2.5x the entire cost of the Fuji
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Old 03-03-2017   #59
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Another one:

Nikon D800, launched in 2012 for $3000, sells used around $1000, -67%
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Old 03-03-2017   #60
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The difference there is that the depreciation alone is nearly 2.5x the entire cost of the Fuji
even at 100% depreciation
What this really means is many will longer have to settle for a crop sensor, AF, faux-rangefinder with very limited lens options.

They can see what the real thing is like

At every level the digital M is completely different to X-pro et al. Notwithstanding the cheerleading and "film emulation"
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Old 03-03-2017   #61
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My gut guess would be that Leicas would generally depreicate more slowly.
Digital cameras depreciate rapidly, but I share your contention that digital Leicas depreciate more slowly than other digital cameras.

The remarks by another poster about condition also commands a bigger premium proportionally with Leica gear in general, and of course there is a rather healthy premium for boxed gear regardless of condition.

Of course the original prices are also higher when comparing brands.

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Old 03-03-2017   #62
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I prefer the M-D to the M10. I am interested in getting a second M-D body, but have to move some other gear to afford it.

That said, I really don't care what new model buying frenzy does to prices at all. If I was unhappy enough with the M-P or M-D, I'd have sold them long ago anyway for whatever I could get. If I'm interested to pick up an M10, I'll do it when the frenzy has settled down.

G
I looked at the M10 yesterday, size-wise not as "advertised," it is still not even close to M6 size or weight. For me the Q would be the hardest to resist, as a casual camera, it is so light.
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Old 03-03-2017   #63
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I'm looking around for the rubble that indicates destruction but I don't see anything
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Old 03-03-2017   #64
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I agree Cal, I may only use my M9 in situations where I have plenty of light, but for that Kodachrome/Ektachrome color pop, nothing I've ever used can come close to the M9 CCD sensor. Possibly because that was the criteria behind the design of the Leica CCD sensor.

Best,
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Which is why I'm not so sure I'd sell mine for an M10.
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Old 03-03-2017   #65
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Which is why I'm not so sure I'd sell mine for an M10.
I bought my MM 4 years ago new. It is currently at Leica getting a sensor replacement. Bill the Service Manager told me that along with the sensor replacement I will get a complete overhaul, and my MM will come back as if a new camera.

I had 4 years of trouble free use, and I heavily used my MM to the point that the covering was worn smooth in some areas, and the edges display silvering that could be called brassing. How I love my MM. Warts and all I still think it is a great camera, and it displays a wonderful patina of silvery edges.

I also own a SL which is a very fast shooter, but when I go back to my MM I get startled by how basic and primitive a camera it is. To a certain extent it feels like a film camera because it is so basic and simple.

Interesting to note that the OP has remorse for selling his MM. BTW the M246 is a more advanced camera in almost every way, but the CCD sensor of the Monochrom has the huge midrange that resembles larger formats. All I need is a basic camera anyways.

Cal
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Old 03-03-2017   #66
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On the other hand, I find it pretty remarkable that the M9 still sells at just the $3000 mark. I would have thought $2300 woulbe be tracking closer to the M8 depreciation curve. Testament to the unique mix of features of that camera?
Just did a search of eBay M9 sales (not offer price, but actual sale price). Over the past two months or so, used M9's have been selling for between $2100 and $3000, with the what looks like the average being somewhere around $2700.
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Old 03-03-2017   #67
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....Purchasing expensive camera equipment from sales on Ebay incurs significantly greater risk, and less service, than purchasing the same equipment from a good camera equipment dealer.
....
Actually, most sellers on ebay and by PayPal are far more serious and careful comparing to some "good camera dealer". It is not uncommon to read how "good names" stores are selling Leica cameras which indeed needs service before they were sold as working ones. While with ebay, PayPal if seller is doing the same lousy sale as "good camera equipment dealer" the buyer is protected by very strict rules which are 100% on buyer side. If seller is not secure on ebay, it is visible right away on feedback and seller like this is handled special way by ebay. No money will be given to seller after sale until buyer is living positive feedback. And it is not just for one sale transaction.
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Old 03-03-2017   #68
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No money will be given to seller after sale, it until buyer is living positive feedback. And it is not just for one sale transaction.
This is simply not true. I get my money right away always without any feedback. I've been using eBay for 19 years though.
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Old 03-03-2017   #69
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I bought my MM 4 years ago new. It is currently at Leica getting a sensor replacement. Bill the Service Manager told me that along with the sensor replacement I will get a complete overhaul, and my MM will come back as if a new camera.

I had 4 years of trouble free use, and I heavily used my MM to the point that the covering was worn smooth in some areas, and the edges display silvering that could be called brassing. How I love my MM. Warts and all I still think it is a great camera, and it displays a wonderful patina of silvery edges.

I also own a SL which is a very fast shooter, but when I go back to my MM I get startled by how basic and primitive a camera it is. To a certain extent it feels like a film camera because it is so basic and simple.

Interesting to note that the OP has remorse for selling his MM. BTW the M246 is a more advanced camera in almost every way, but the CCD sensor of the Monochrom has the huge midrange that resembles larger formats. All I need is a basic camera anyways.

Cal
I'm going to send in my M9-P for the sensor replacement and shoot with an X100 while it's gone, I think.
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Old 03-03-2017   #70
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This is simply not true. I get my money right away always without any feedback. I've been using eBay for 19 years though.
I have started not as long time ago as you have started. Nineteen years ago I did't have credit card and bank account. In my case and time of starting with selling on ebay I have to make a lot of sales, before money were released without feedback or after certain waiting time. If I don't sell for long time it also gets reset.

Read this, your statement about "true" might change.
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M10
Old 03-03-2017   #71
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M10

Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
It is a buyer's market now.

Soon it will be:

M8: $1000
M9: $2000
M240: $2500
I wrote the seller and response was , who ever says I will buy first....will get it. I immediately wrote back saying "I will buy it". Response was that someone else had already bought.

It was one of those kinds of sale.
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Old 03-03-2017   #72
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I wrote the seller and response was , who ever says I will buy first....will get it. I immediately wrote back saying "I will buy it". Response was that someone else had already bought.

It was one of those kinds of sale.
... which camera were you trying to buy? M240?
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M10
Old 03-03-2017   #73
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M10

Yes Raid
M240

Best
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Old 03-03-2017   #74
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I was surprise by a comment that had to introduce the President in this discussion.
A border tax is being considered, but it is far from a done deal. Perhaps the commenter would like to know that it is related, if ever implemented, to assist American industry. How many American Cameras have you bought lately, or maybe in the past 50 years? Is there such an industry that I don't know about?

Perhaps you don't like the PResident, I get that. But at least get your facts straight. there will be no tax on Leicas, or Nikons, or Canon, or Fuji, or Sony. there could be the threat of a tax on Japanese or Korean heavy duty earth movers.

Our products are taxed quite heavily when exported.....except our cameras....which don't exist. RIP Kodak, Polaroid, Argus, Graflex.
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Old 03-03-2017   #75
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Why wouldn't the proposed border adjustment tax apply to Leica USA importing cameras from Leica Germany to sell in the US? From what little detail has been given about it, it seems like it would. The bet is that a strong dollar would help to offset the cost to American consumers but it's far from certain that this will happen or that it will go up the 20% that the proposed border tax would increase.

Again it's all theoretical at this point but I'm not sure how you can say it wouldn't effect cameras.

What am I missing?
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Old 03-03-2017   #76
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FYI there will be no Leica M13. The number 13 is deemed unlucky by many and so Leica is deciding how to name that model when the time is appropriate. They are leaning to M12.2

That camera will definitely be bad luck for those selling their previous Ms on the used market.
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Old 03-03-2017   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post
I was laughed at...a few weeks ago..by most here on the forum..when I predicted a huge downturn in M used prices..
But..
I think the pricing is just getting realistic now..and really..for a used M cam...those thousands of $$..come on..that was a dream..
Yes.. the M10 killed all of that..as it should be..finally Leica got the cam down to reasonable size and specs..
But I would suggest..if you want to buy an M10...buy now or soon..because if our lovely president gets his way..there will be a 25% to 30% import tax on these kind of items coming into the country..and yes..that will kill a lot of sales..and businesses too..
But for an M10..priced at close to 9K..will be stupid..and a non starter for many..
But that remains to be seen..
In Australia the M10 is at $9700.....yes, all the taxes here make it so.
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Old 03-03-2017   #78
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Call me a camera day-trader, a gambler, or speculator, but if a BAT (Border Adjustment Tax Suggested 20% by Paul Ryan) we could see where the price of the M10 suddenly make a big adjustment upward.

Free market, supply and demand, and the value of the dollar certainly could cause the MD and other used camera prices to inflate.

Not really a Black Swan, might not happen, but there are possibilities. A BAT certainly will inflate used camera prices. A BAT is a gamechanger that will definitely effect the value of the dollar and some say it could cause a global recession.

Cal
"Some say", that is the important bit here. Some say.

Election night, I stayed up until 3AM watching until the returns were finalized. At that point, Paul Krugman, the NYT's Nobel prize winning economist/political pundit, was already tweeting that the stoock market was going to crash, a very bad crash, but not only that, his immediate judgment was that there was a very good possibility that "it might never recover".

Never? Yes, so did "some say", but they were not/are not basing it on economics, but on something else entirely.
It was pure politics, as is all this talk about the BAT, the outlines of which have not even been written yet.
Not possible to speculate at this point (well, speculate reasonably, at any rate. Economics is known as "the dismal science" for a reason.

At 3AM, I went online and placed "buy" trades with every bit of uninvested capital I owned. It was hardly a gamble; some things are just that obvious if looked at unemotionally.

No, I don't want to turn this to a political discussion; more along the lines of discouraging thinking which needlessly, perhaps, buys trouble. "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."
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M10
Old 03-03-2017   #79
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M10

Interesting comment....I wrote something wordy and it disappeared. So now I would just ask my Australian friend who has to overpay for a Leica, why his political leaders would punish him financially for buying a German camera. It seems the Aussie tax serves no purpose of protecting national rangefinder camera industry or leveling anything but his wallet. It appears Australia taxes anything that moves.....across the border. They are not alone.

And....the other commenter correct. We do not even have the barest outline of what is likely to be proposed.

All I know is that I live in one of the most taxed jurisdictions in the country and have little to show for it other than failing schools, crumbling infrastructure, and somehow large pension obligations for public servants.
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Old 03-03-2017   #80
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My personal belief is that resale of used digital cameras will always be a bad deal. Computers go obsolete, and those cameras are computers. Resale of film Leica cameras will thrive, they are not computers, they are cameras.
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