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Old 03-05-2016   #41
BillBingham2
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Originally Posted by Tijmendal View Post
....I think the bluetooth idea is ridiculous: that would defeat the whole purpose.
All we need for years was aperture, shutter speed and recently ISO/ASA. Why not have just those controls on the body and then do everything else on a smartphone? Lower cost of buttons, reduces the number of hole to seal, reduces the cost of testing, overall it lowers to cost.

Where's the down side?

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Old 03-05-2016   #42
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To use an analogy from writing there is Handwriting, and writing on a Computer. Handwriting is forward "thinking" you write and don't stop until you're finished you make mistakes etc... Writing on a PC is backward writing you write and you constantly check for mistakes because you see them and you can correct them immediately. There are advantages to both approaches. But the single biggest advantage of writing by hand is the flow once you're in the flow you don't stop until you have finished the paragraph, text, sentence. Rarely so with a computer. The disadvantage of handwriting is that you have to correct a lot and unless you have beautiful handwriting you have to type the text into a computer anyway.
The same thing applies to LCD screens without screen you don't check whether the image went well you are in an uninterrupted flow but you have the same disadvantage as handwrinting you have to edit later.
Personaly I prefer having a flow that's why I believe this camera to be a winner but different kinds of photographers have different needs, same with writers. Leica now gives the photographer a choice a Camera without LCD will not be interesting to a lot of people but on the other hand will be interesting to a lot of people. Those who don't get it will never get it because they have different needs as those who get it and will use it.
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Old 03-05-2016   #43
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Originally Posted by DominikDUK View Post
To use an analogy from writing there is Handwriting, and writing on a Computer. Handwriting is forward "thinking" you write and don't stop until you're finished you make mistakes etc... Writing on a PC is backward writing you write and you constantly check for mistakes because you see them and you can correct them immediately. There are advantages to both approaches. But the single biggest advantage of writing by hand is the flow once you're in the flow you don't stop until you have finished the paragraph, text, sentence. Rarely so with a computer. The disadvantage of handwriting is that you have to correct a lot and unless you have beautiful handwriting you have to type the text into a computer anyway.
The same thing applies to LCD screens without screen you don't check whether the image went well you are in an uninterrupted flow but you have the same disadvantage as handwrinting you have to edit later.
Personaly I prefer having a flow that's why I believe this camera to be a winner but different kinds of photographers have different needs, same with writers. Leica now gives the photographer a choice a Camera without LCD will not be interesting to a lot of people but on the other hand will be interesting to a lot of people. Those who don't get it will never get it because they have different needs as those who get it and will use it.
Very accurate analogy and it is how I feel too.
Moreover Its like buttons and dials, many like them plenty others have no need for them and prefer simplicity.
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Old 03-05-2016   #44
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I like your analogy DominukDUK. It makes sense and it is one of the reasons I work with film so much; I am more tuned in to what I am doing at that moment in time.
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Old 03-05-2016   #45
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...now they're removing parts and charging more? The halcyon days I tell ya, the halcyon days.
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Old 03-05-2016   #46
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Leica should be applauded for at least trying to appeal to purists.
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Old 03-05-2016   #47
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Just to play devil's advocate, the writing analogy doesn't really work for me; there isn't much different between the writing I do on a computer and in a notebook (though I do love the aesthetic experience of writing in a notebook), and I tend to use digital cameras just like film cameras: I keep the screen turned off when shooting, and am as selective with my shots as I am when I am trying to conserve film. For me, the screen is there for changing settings.

I do wish Leica would make an M with dedicated hardware ISO and exposure comp knobs. That would obviate the need for a screen, for me. The M60 certainly has the former—but is there exposure comp on it?

Also, the bluetooth idea is great. A companion app would satisfy the typical digital user and the purist alike, who doesn't ever have to use it. In fact I wish all digital cameras could be used that way.
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Old 03-05-2016   #48
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I do wish Leica would make an M with dedicated hardware ISO and exposure comp knobs. That would obviate the need for a screen, for me. The M60 certainly has the former—but is there exposure comp on it?
Repurposing the M2/3/4 self timer as a +/- EV lever would be my ideal; as it's a classic feature it would not upset anyone.
Maintaining the frame preview lever is important to me as a horizon reference tool.
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Old 03-05-2016   #49
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Just to play devil's advocate, the writing analogy doesn't really work for me; there isn't much different between the writing I do on a computer and in a notebook (though I do love the aesthetic experience of writing in a notebook), and I tend to use digital cameras just like film cameras: I keep the screen turned off when shooting, and am as selective with my shots as I am when I am trying to conserve film. For me, the screen is there for changing settings.

I do wish Leica would make an M with dedicated hardware ISO and exposure comp knobs. That would obviate the need for a screen, for me. The M60 certainly has the former—but is there exposure comp on it?

Also, the bluetooth idea is great. A companion app would satisfy the typical digital user and the purist alike, who doesn't ever have to use it. In fact I wish all digital cameras could be used that way.
+1 on all points, well-stated!
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Old 03-06-2016   #50
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I find the writing analogy very appropriate, digital si slowly changing the "thinking" processes of many people (not all, of course).

This is one of the reasons which push me to shoot more film, even less 135 and more 120 or the expensive Impossible which at 2.50 EUR for each shot let me think a lot before shooting

Having said this when I shoot digital I try to shoot in what I call film style.

It would be interesting a digital leica with no lcd shooting only dng, with mechanical selection of iso which you cannot change for 36 epoxies ...just playing a little with my ideas don't worry...

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Old 03-06-2016   #51
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The window on the back is the most valuable feature of digital cameras unless ou wish to carry around a computer for tether. I can check composition, exposure, white balance, share with clients.
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Old 03-06-2016   #52
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how about a M262 with no LCD screen and only shoots in B&W....
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Old 03-06-2016   #53
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For a more film-like experience, the camera could be limited to one ISO setting. You could buy the ISO 400 model or the ISO 100 model. For a premium price, you could get the ISO 1600 "push" model.
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Old 03-06-2016   #54
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You would have to buy digital Film.. Just a code you have to enter in order to be able to shoot at a certain ISO setting 36 Frames. An original Leica digifilm would cost 15 € a piece
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Old 03-06-2016   #55
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+1 on all points, well-stated!
Thanks, Doug!
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Old 03-06-2016   #56
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A digital camera without screen is somewhat radical (for me it does not make sense at all but that's a different story). So why not taking the radical approach to the max and have a digital camera without any menu setting? You can set aperture, time and iso. What else does a purist need?
Auto-ISO, JPG Settings, Date/Time, Folder Settings....? If you get rid of this, you don't even need a menu button. It seems most people here are not really purists.
If they did that I might actually buy my first Leica. I have been waiting for something like a digital Praktica for a long time.

And it isn't only the purists that need nothing more. Any photographers doesn't need anything more as there is nothing else that has to be controlled (apart from focus).
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Old 03-07-2016   #57
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I'm excited to see what this will be... even if I won't be buying it.
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Old 03-07-2016   #58
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I have it on good authority that Leica is going to push the envelope on pure photography, removing not only the screen, but the sensor as well in the upcoming M-I.

The image goes directly to your brain via imagination, with absolutely no barriers whatosever between your Art and yourself.

LOL
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Old 03-07-2016   #59
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You would have to buy digital Film.. Just a code you have to enter in order to be able to shoot at a certain ISO setting 36 Frames. An original Leica digifilm would cost 15 € a piece

Yes!! And Kodak can charge, say, $50 for a Kodachrome "roll" code. Have to shoot at either 64 or 200 and DNG files get perfect color and tonal rendition but then the code expires after 36 clicks.

Who would pay for that?
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Old 03-07-2016   #60
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If they really want to make it cheaper the best option would not be to add bluetooth but instead have the settings be controlled via a text file on the memory card.
They could make a file generator app for your computer and/or smartphone.

That would also future proof the camera for many many years.
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Old 03-07-2016   #61
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Yes!! And Kodak can charge, say, $50 for a Kodachrome "roll" code. Have to shoot at either 64 or 200 and DNG files get perfect color and tonal rendition but then the code expires after 36 clicks.

Who would pay for that?
If it would cost less than the price of a roll of Kodachrome and developing, I would!
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Old 03-07-2016   #62
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If Leica wants to go old school with a 262 sans LCD screen, why not bring back the advance lever and manually recock the shutter? I'm half serious... How much more battery life would result and you'd feel like you're shooting film again.
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Old 03-07-2016   #63
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If Leica wants to go old school with a 262 sans LCD screen, why not bring back the advance lever and manually recock the shutter? I'm half serious... How much more battery life would result and you'd feel like you're shooting film again.

My favorite thing about the R-D1!
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Old 03-07-2016   #64
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If Leica wants to go old school with a 262 sans LCD screen why not bring back the advance lever and manually recock the shutter? I'm half serious... How much more battery life would result and you'd feel like you're shooting film again.
The advance lever and the 1:1 viewfinder is what I miss most from R-D1.
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Old 03-07-2016   #65
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Yes!! And Kodak can charge, say, $50 for a Kodachrome "roll" code. Have to shoot at either 64 or 200 and DNG files get perfect color and tonal rendition but then the code expires after 36 clicks.

Who would pay for that?
If I could get a Tri-X code for 50 pictures for say $6.00 USD.

B2 (;->
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Old 03-08-2016   #66
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If I could get a Tri-X code for 50 pictures for say $6.00 USD.

B2 (;->
Now we are at the point where we need a screen again: for the film changing animation that is played when you "insert another film".
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Old 03-08-2016   #67
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All we need for years was aperture, shutter speed and recently ISO/ASA. Why not have just those controls on the body and then do everything else on a smartphone? Lower cost of buttons, reduces the number of hole to seal, reduces the cost of testing, overall it lowers to cost.

Where's the down side?

B2 (;->
Amen brother. That's exactly what I want... But preferably in a Nikon FM-esque digital camera. Or in a rangefinder that doesn't say 'Leica'.
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Old 03-08-2016   #68
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If Leica wants to go old school with a 262 sans LCD screen, why not bring back the advance lever and manually recock the shutter? I'm half serious... How much more battery life would result and you'd feel like you're shooting film again.
Yes, and that too.
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Old 03-08-2016   #69
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If Leica wants to go old school with a 262 sans LCD screen, why not bring back the advance lever and manually recock the shutter? I'm half serious... How much more battery life would result and you'd feel like you're shooting film again.
Manual shutter recock would be nice but I'm not sure the shutter motor is a significant drain on the battery and it is incredibly unlikely that Leica will want to (or be able to) redesign the body to accommodate such a feature. Its worth remembering that the only reason it was on the RD-1 was that Epson chose to shoehorn the digital guts into an existing camera platform that already had a manual wind recock not because they thought it was a battery saver or that it looked cool.
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Old 03-08-2016   #70
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Its worth remembering that the only reason it was on the RD-1 was that Epson chose to shoehorn the digital guts into an existing camera platform that already had a manual wind recock not because they thought it was a battery saver or that it looked cool.
Essentially we should assume this to be true. The analogue world aesthetic was however a big part of this camera concept. This is perhaps best seen in the brilliant Seiko dials. While the shutter recocking mechanism was not a product of the Seiko Epson Corporation, it sure fit the concept beautifully. Another nice, "useless" feature is the repurposed film rewind knob.
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Old 03-08-2016   #71
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So its seems it will be an M262 without the LCD:

http://leicarumors.com/2016/03/07/le...in-korea.aspx/

I just hope they price it the same too.
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Old 03-08-2016   #72
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My guess, because they are calling it the M-D Typ 262, is that it wont have an optical rangefinder either, but an EVF instead. If it does, then not only will it be live view but all the setting info can be done in the viewfinder. It would be the combination of the M6 and the Q!
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Old 03-08-2016   #73
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My guess is

• M Type 262 size, VF/RF, overall aesthetics like stepped top plate.
• RAW only.
• Further simplified menu from regular Type 262.
• ISO dial on the back like M60.
• Thinner than 262 by the thickness of LCD unit (top and bottom plates identical).
• No red dot.

My guess on the price point:

From Leica's point of view,

cheaper BOM (no LCD related parts) + more expensive per unit total cost (smaller production quantity) x Leica Magic Powder = about the same MSRP as regular Type 262, or a bit higher.
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Old 03-08-2016   #74
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Now we are at the point where we need a screen again: for the film changing animation that is played when you "insert another film".
Nah, buy it through your SmartPhone. If you don't have a SmartPhone then you have to pay more for the Leica with the screen.....

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Old 03-08-2016   #75
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My guess is

• M Type 262 size, VF/RF, overall aesthetics like stepped top plate.
• RAW only.
• Further simplified menu from regular Type 262.
• ISO dial on the back like M60.
• Thinner than 262 by the thickness of LCD unit (top and bottom plates identical).
• No red dot.

My guess on the price point:

From Leica's point of view,

cheaper BOM (no LCD related parts) + more expensive per unit total cost (smaller production quantity) x Leica Magic Powder = about the same MSRP as regular Type 262, or a bit higher.
I'm with you, but how do you access the menu?
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Old 03-08-2016   #76
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oh sorry. lol. you got me good there.

so simplified menu = iso dial.


Oh hey I also just realized my M4-P has even further simplified menu = EMPTY ISO dial so you can WRITE on it to memorize.
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Old 03-08-2016   #77
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Actually, that could kinda work on modern CMOS sensors right? It's pretty much the native base sensitivity then digitally pushing it. So M-D could even skip ISO setting all together and you'd just push.
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Old 03-08-2016   #78
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I think for $15,500, a special edition designed with the help of Audi, body in stainless steel, I'll save my money for my son's college.
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Old 03-08-2016   #79
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Whenever Leica takes something away, the price doubles.
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Old 03-09-2016   #80
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Oh hey I also just realized my M4-P has even further simplified menu = EMPTY ISO dial so you can WRITE on it to memorize.
I remember the first time I used a M4-2 (early 90s) and I couldn't figure out why Leica put that thing on the back of the camera. I was coming from using a Nikon F4.
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