Old 09-17-2014   #81
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To my eye, they made one mistake with the M Edition 60: They put an aperture-priority AE mode on the shutter dial, which isn't very useful without an EV Compensation control. I'd be happier if it only had manual exposure mode.

The lack of strap lugs doesn't bother me. I alway use my M9 fitted with an A&A half case, and the M Edition 60's half case has the strap attached to it. That makes good sense擁t's how I always use my Nikon F.

But if I had the money, I'd buy one immediately and ignore the A on the shutter dial. It is that utterly stark and simple digital camera that I'd like. No LCD to distract, no auto focus, no immediate review, nothing but what my M4-2 has except for the addition of digital sensor, motorized shutter cocking, and a built-in meter.

I could get along with this. Leica: Please make a standard production version in black chrome or black paint. ;-)

G
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Old 09-17-2014   #82
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looking forward to a review. Wondering what information you get in the viewfinder, such as shots remaining.
would have loved an inner kelvin wheel on the ISO dial.
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Old 09-17-2014   #83
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
which isn't very useful without an EV Compensation control.
G
yup...

Is it even AE locking?
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Old 09-17-2014   #84
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An LCD-less M-E for, say, $4.5K would be seriously tempting - but I guess it's unreasonable to expect to pay less for less :-) It could sway those thinking of getting an A7S with M adapter.
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Old 09-17-2014   #85
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An LCD-less M-E for, say, $4.5K would be seriously tempting - but I guess it's unreasonable to expect to pay less for less :-) It could sway those thinking of getting an A7S with M adapter.
I think thats the plan for the M-60 after the special edition has run its course.
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Old 09-17-2014   #86
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Wonder if there is anything inside it..!!
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Old 09-17-2014   #87
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yup...
Is it even AE locking?
If it works like the M9 (in standard release mode) and M (Type 240), yes.
I normally keep the M9 in soft release mode, so it doesn't do the locking bit.

G
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Old 09-17-2014   #88
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Amazing how different we all are, because I started with an SP and an F, both of which required removing the back to change film, I never even thought about a case.

Not sure how you actually safely reload your F, I would imagine you have to sit down since you would have to remove the camera from the case, and now you have nowhere to put the back or the camera that is safe if someone bumps you.
It's easy:

- take bottom half of never-ready case off camera ... it stays hanging on my neck
- remove back, stuff in pocket
- remove film, stuff in pocket,
- load new film
- replace back
- re-fit case.

I did it when I had my first F in 1969 to 1976, works fine now too. At one time, when I was in High School, I could do change film while I was running from one side to the other of a football field during a game shoot.

The Nikon case bottom for the F had the strap attachment on the front side, which made the camera balance better than hanging it from the eyelets. I've also always appreciated the fact that the case bottom gave me a solid, good-feeling leather grip to handle the camera by, just like today's modern half-cases.

G
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Old 09-17-2014   #89
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I remember this LCD/Less M was a "Want" by many here when the M8 or M9 was introduced... Now that Leica has done it, too bad it is a "Special Edition" with over double the price tag it would be a regular production camera...

How many of those that "Wished" for a LCD/less M, now wish it was $6k-8k USD, instead of close to $20k USD

It does have a lot of charm..... though.
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Old 09-17-2014   #90
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Leica has said that it may make a standard model with no LCD if this is well received.
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Old 09-17-2014   #91
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
It's easy:

- take bottom half of never-ready case off camera ... it stays hanging on my neck
- remove back, stuff in pocket
- remove film, stuff in pocket,
- load new film
- replace back
- re-fit case.

I did it when I had my first F in 1969 to 1976, works fine now too. At one time, when I was in High School, I could do change film while I was running from one side to the other of a football field during a game shoot.

The Nikon case bottom for the F had the strap attachment on the front side, which made the camera balance better than hanging it from the eyelets. I've also always appreciated the fact that the case bottom gave me a solid, good-feeling leather grip to handle the camera by, just like today's modern half-cases.

G
Wow! I never knew that the front of the Nikon's ever ready case came off til I read your post. I'm going to start using that beautiful thing! Thanks!
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Old 09-17-2014   #92
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
It's easy:

- take bottom half of never-ready case off camera ... it stays hanging on my neck

G
Not that easy without strap lugs.
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Old 09-17-2014   #93
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Not that easy without strap lugs.
The case has the strap lugs, and it is what remains hanging around my neck. The camera is in my hands when I'm loading film...

G
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Old 09-17-2014   #94
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
The case has the strap lugs, and it is what remains hanging around my neck. The camera is in my hands when I'm loading film...

G
Sorry, I didn't understand.
Well, I much prefer the other way around: pull out the bottom case, ten the back/baseplate. The camera hangs safely around the neck.
trying to reload a camera with one hand while holding it with the other is a pretty sure recipe for gravity to start messing with things.
expensive things...
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Old 09-17-2014   #95
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Sorry, I didn't understand.
Well, I much prefer the other way around: pull out the bottom case, ten the back/baseplate. The camera hangs safely around the neck.
trying to reload a camera with one hand while holding it with the other is a pretty sure recipe for gravity to start messing with things.
expensive things...
Even if I have a neck strap on a camera, I'm holding it in my hands when I'm loading film. The neck strap often gets in the way (particularly on the Leica CL) at which point it's more likely to make me drop the camera than just holding it and putting the film in.

I've been shooting seriously with many, many cameras since 1968 ... but I cannot remember a single time I've dropped a camera while loading it. Any camera. I've only dropped a camera at all four times in all these years, and on one of those occasions it was due to a child literally running into my elbow as I put the hand strap around my wrist... !

G
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Old 09-17-2014   #96
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If it was priced more sensibly, this clown would buy one...
So will this one.

I applaud Leica for being the leader in innovation. This is a bold step not just within camera manufacturing perspective. And this is a confirmation that my support of the LCD-less digital camera design is shared by some powerful decision makers at Leica.

I just hope there are 600 rich folks who gets the concept and clean the shelf.

Then it's up to Fuji or Ricoh or Sony to pick up the gamble and bring down the price to some semblance of reasonability.
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Old 09-17-2014   #97
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I like this idea..
Make it smaller..
Add some strap lugs..
And I'm in..
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Old 09-17-2014   #98
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Leica has said that it may make a standard model with no LCD if this is well received.
Here's hoping its well received then so us mere mortals can afford one. Call me a clown, but I want one (if I'm going to be picky, I prefer the typical M styling over the Audi designs)

It should be less expensive than the screen one though once in production. But I doubt it, they charge more for no colour, so it'll be about 10k for no screen. Monochrom with no screen, double up for 13k!

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Old 09-17-2014   #99
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I just hope there are 600 rich folks who gets the concept and clean the shelf.
I hope there are well over 600 rich folk so they're forced (or at least likely) to put it into production. I dare say that most of them are likely to be already spoken for.

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Old 09-17-2014   #100
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On the less serious side : No chimping :-)
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Old 09-17-2014   #101
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I hope the interest in this camera will spur a new mass production version for the plebs (us)...
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Old 09-18-2014   #102
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I hope the interest in this camera will spur a new mass production version for the plebs (us)...
Hear,hear!!
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Old 09-18-2014   #103
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I hope the interest in this camera will spur a new mass production version for the plebs (us)...
Not happening. As I've said elsewhere:

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Each feature removed would cost an additional US$5000 By the time they remove the whole camera that small piece of thin air is starting to cost a lot of money! Then they'll remove the air, one GAS at a time
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Old 09-18-2014   #104
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This is not "innovative." It was suggested/discussed among rf fotogs years ago and didn't require any manner of technicity to execute.

It's not the 'same as shooting film.' It's not even 'the next best thing.' You still get a digital file. Film is film.

I still think it's ironic that the (typically) well-heeled 'Leica photographer' is the only one who seems to be proud of his Simplemindedness and inability to deal with "distractions" like buttons, dials, and... IMAGES. These same people drive Mercedes and audis with gps and Bluetooth hookups at 80mph, but when they need to snap an immobile homeless person or a bokehful leaf or a Pomeranian, they somehow require absolute mental zen. Personally, I think it's half leica-Jedi mind trick and half pretense... and half something else.
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Old 09-18-2014   #105
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Yes, yes, and yes. It's about everything Leica... except photography. The missing strap lugs say absolutely everything that one needs to know about this meticulously extruded turd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CK Dexter Haven View Post
This is not "innovative." It was suggested/discussed among rf fotogs years ago and didn't require any manner of technicity to execute.

It's not the 'same as shooting film.' It's not even 'the next best thing.' You still get a digital file. Film is film.

I still think it's ironic that the (typically) well-heeled 'Leica photographer' is the only one who seems to be proud of his Simplemindedness and inability to deal with "distractions" like buttons, dials, and... IMAGES. These same people drive Mercedes and audis with gps and Bluetooth hookups at 80mph, but when they need to snap an immobile homeless person or a bokehful leaf or a Pomeranian, they somehow require absolute mental zen. Personally, I think it's half leica-Jedi mind trick and half pretense... and half something else.
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Old 09-18-2014   #106
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Originally Posted by CK Dexter Haven View Post
This is not "innovative." It was suggested/discussed among rf fotogs years ago and didn't require any manner of technicity to execute.

It's not the 'same as shooting film.' It's not even 'the next best thing.' You still get a digital file. Film is film.

I still think it's ironic that the (typically) well-heeled 'Leica photographer' is the only one who seems to be proud of his Simplemindedness and inability to deal with "distractions" like buttons, dials, and... IMAGES. These same people drive Mercedes and audis with gps and Bluetooth hookups at 80mph, but when they need to snap an immobile homeless person or a bokehful leaf or a Pomeranian, they somehow require absolute mental zen. Personally, I think it's half leica-Jedi mind trick and half pretense... and half something else.
Well I for one love being involved in the process. If you want all the bells and whistles there are certainly a crap load of those options but something doesn't have all of that in digital is hard to find. I wouldn't spend this kind of money on one but if it were priced about where the current ME is I would buy it.
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Old 09-18-2014   #107
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I think the Edition 60 is wunderbar, but I would love to see a version with a rear LCD.... oh, wait...
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Old 09-18-2014   #108
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On the less serious side : No chimping :-)
photokina-exclusive-leica-signs-macaca-nigra-as-spokesprimate/

OMG!!!

This is priceless!
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Old 09-18-2014   #109
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Originally Posted by CK Dexter Haven View Post
This is not "innovative." It was suggested/discussed among rf fotogs years ago and didn't require any manner of technicity to execute. It's not the 'same as shooting film.' It's not even 'the next best thing.' You still get a digital file. Film is film. I still think it's ironic that the (typically) well-heeled 'Leica photographer' is the only one who seems to be proud of his Simplemindedness and inability to deal with "distractions" like buttons, dials, and... IMAGES. These same people drive Mercedes and audis with gps and Bluetooth hookups at 80mph, but when they need to snap an immobile homeless person or a bokehful leaf or a Pomeranian, they somehow require absolute mental zen. Personally, I think it's half leica-Jedi mind trick and half pretense... and half something else.
Of course this is innovative. There has never been a camera like this. That it was dreamed of by people who had no idea what it would take to build doesn't detract from the achievement. The Wright Brothers weren't the first people to dream of powered flight but achieving it was an innovation.

This is clearly not a mass market camera. And a production version would not be a mass market camera either. What most people seem to forget is that there is R&D in this! And that is spread over only a few cameras. If these get snapped up then the R&D should be covered and a production version won't have to cost a bomb.

Is it a mind trick? Sure. Most things are. It's not for you, it can still be right for others.

Finally, I think that Leica are having a lend of us, or perhaps just watching closely to see how discussions like this go. A camera like this if sold not as a collectors edition but as a tool is a risk, even if 98% of the parts are in common with the M (240). If it's only saleable for less than a 240 then it's not worth the effort. Like the MM it would need to be attractive to buyers at a price premium. The screen doesn't cost THAT much. If they sell at a discount to the 240 it will be a marketing exercise, a low volume non-profit line which "proves" the purity of their vision.
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Old 09-18-2014   #110
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What most people seem to forget is that there is R&D in this!
R&D for the ISO dial? Or the removal of an LCD? It requires less materials and less machining so I would argue that it is cheaper to produce than M240 if you don't count the external "design".

I would agree with you if the came up with a thinner design. But no, they thought it is better to use a famous designer to change the looks of the camera and then upsell it as a limited edition.

I am in favor of the simplicity but the implementation is just a joke not worth laughing if you ask me. Recently Leica reminds me of Hasselblad's Lunar and Stellar...

I only hope for an RD2.
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Old 09-18-2014   #111
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R&D for the ISO dial? Or the removal of an LCD? It requires less materials and less machining so I would argue that it is cheaper to produce than M240
Produce yes, but the camera has new parts so yes, R&D. And tooling costs. It isn't a blank sheet design but any change (even a deletion) from the M costs them money (and may also save money: the nett effect depends on volume of sales).

Most significantly, new firmware. And for a production version some way to adjust things via external link, if they haven't already.

IF (a big if) this goes well I can see this being the default Leica, BYO smartphone for a screen. Or at the least an a la carte option.
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Old 09-18-2014   #112
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R&D for the ISO dial? Or the removal of an LCD? It requires less materials and less machining so I would argue that it is cheaper to produce than M240 if you don't count the external "design".
I'd argue the other way. It may require less materials and less machining, but that's not the point. The cost is associated with NEW machining. Hence the MM price is/was higher than the M9 (both at respective release).
*Of course that's got nothing to do with the special edition cost*

For example, if it costs $100k to get the machining set up, then $20 per M240 replicate ($15 with no lcd - it takes less time). If we sell 100k M240's, then the body only cost $21 each. If we sell 1000 with no lcd then they cost $115 each. Of course you can take away the cost of the lcd ($10) and buttons ($20), but its still much more expensive.

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Old 09-18-2014   #113
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LIMBO, everyone!

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Of course this is innovative. There has never been a camera like this.
You really know how to set the bar low, Scrambler.
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Old 09-18-2014   #114
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Innovation? Besides making an early small 35mm camera and really putting a lot into making really good glass Leica M has really never been very innovative. They were late putting meters in their M cameras and sill don't have autofocus (thank God). To me a great camera is a light tight box to hold light sensitive material, a shutter to control the time that the light is allowed to strike the light sensitive material, a lens to focus the light and an aperture to control the amount of light allowed to strike that sensitive material. A great camera to me and many others is a camera that is just about that simple. A great lens and a camera that I totally control and gets out of my way so I can create. I don't want or need all the stuff (so called innovation) that the big two spend their time on and am glad I have choices other than that. If you want all of that there certainly are a bevy of choices out there.
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Old 09-18-2014   #115
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I'd argue the other way. It may require less materials and less machining, but that's not the point. The cost is associated with NEW machining. Hence the MM price is/was higher than the M9 (both at respective release).
*Of course that's got nothing to do with the special edition cost*

For example, if it costs $100k to get the machining set up, then $20 per M240 replicate ($15 with no lcd - it takes less time). If we sell 100k M240's, then the body only cost $21 each. If we sell 1000 with no lcd then they cost $115 each. Of course you can take away the cost of the lcd ($10) and buttons ($20), but its still much more expensive.

Michael
So lets hope of it sells well to the collectors and maybe they will put this body into regular production and charge about what they charge for the ME now. Can't hurt to hope. And if it happens I would buy one to buy and use as a tool...
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Old 09-18-2014   #116
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You really know how to set the bar low, Scrambler.
Semilog, I spent 1/2 my childhood in the Third World. There is a concept called Appropriate Technology. Building a hand pump that uses commonly available car parts (for example) rather than proprietary castings is innovative, but also entirely derivative and adds no new feature, other than user servicing. An oven from a 44 gallon drum? Shoes from old tyres? Wind turbine from a 44 gallon drum, bicycle chain and a car alternator? All innovation or not?

The M(60) is new =novel therefore producing it =innovation. It's also regression with removal of features. It's dumb, and brilliant. It will be the most talked about camera Leica produces. It reinforces their brand image in a way only the M Monochrom has so far. Leica = more with less. Whether that's what you see or not, that's what they are saying.

A Jeep Wrangler isn't for everyone, but it (the idea or image) is what sells all the other Jeeps.

The M(60) is the first serious digital camera without a screen. The first to have only the literal bare minimum controls. It says, "if you can't cook, stay out of this kitchen."

It's appropriate technology for photographers that know their craft.
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Old 09-18-2014   #117
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Leica = more with less.
Well, not with the M240
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Old 09-18-2014   #118
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Semilog, I spent 1/2 my childhood in the Third World. There is a concept called Appropriate Technology. Building a hand pump that uses commonly available car parts (for example) rather than proprietary castings is innovative, but also entirely derivative and adds no new feature, other than user servicing. An oven from a 44 gallon drum? Shoes from old tyres? Wind turbine from a 44 gallon drum, bicycle chain and a car alternator? All innovation or not?

The M(60) is new =novel therefore producing it =innovation.

It's also regression with removal of features. It's dumb, and brilliant. It will be the most talked about camera Leica produces. It reinforces their brand image in a way only the M Monochrom has so far. Leica = more with less. Whether that's what you see or not, that's what they are saying. A Jeep Wrangler isn't for everyone, but it (the idea or image) is what sells all the other Jeeps.

The M(60) is the first serious digital camera without a screen. The first to have only the literal bare minimum controls. It says, "if you can't cook, stay out of this kitchen." It's appropriate technology for photographers that know their craft.
+1

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Old 09-18-2014   #119
olakiril
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrambler View Post

It's appropriate technology for photographers that know their craft.
Ok Leica might have been common among professional photographers few decades ago, but currently it targets hobbyists and collectors.
What serious professional photographer would spend $20k for a camera that does the same thing as a camera at half that price? How many of the 600 cameras do you think are going to be actually used professionally (or not for that matter) ?

Leica just innovated another way to get more money (although I could argue they would make much more if they had priced it like an ME) .

Its not supposed to be a tool but a jewel. That is why gloves are included.
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Old 09-18-2014   #120
michaelwj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olakiril View Post
Ok Leica might have been common among professional photographers few decades ago, but currently it targets hobbyists and collectors.
What serious professional photographer would spend $20k for a camera that does the same thing as a camera at half that price? How many of the 600 cameras do you think are going to be actually used professionally (or not for that matter) ?

Leica just innovated another way to get more money (although I could argue they would make much more if they had priced it like an ME) .

Its not supposed to be a tool but a jewel. That is why gloves are included.
First, this is a collectors edition. None of them will be used professionally.
A regular edition would most likely not be used by professional photographers either. But, "photographers that know their craft" and "professional photographer" are not the same thing. Are you suggesting that hobbyists and amateurs do not know their craft?

I doubt it will ever be priced where the M-E is, that's the price point where they use up old technology, a regular version of this camera would be priced above the 240 unfortunately.

Michael
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