Leica M Edition 60
Old 09-09-2014   #1
jsrockit
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Leica M Edition 60

Ok, so it appears Leica is going to make that digital M without an LCD that some want... well, if you believe the rumors:

http://leicarumors.com/2014/09/08/le...-website.aspx/

http://leicarumors.com/2014/09/07/al...hotokina.aspx/
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Old 09-09-2014   #2
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This looks interesting. I wonder how the Leica users will react. For me, I'm keeping an eye on this, instead of going back to film, I might meet halfway with this.
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Old 09-09-2014   #3
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No LCD .... fewer controls ... no video ... and a higher price than the M240!

LOL ... who else but the Solms elves can get away with this!
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Old 09-09-2014   #4
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Have no idea how this will eventually come out, I don't think it's a smart idea anyway..
Anything digital try to mimic film is stupid IMO sorry for my wording. I never saw Leica try to sell any digital stuff by calling up the film memories, it's not as professional as it should be.
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Old 09-09-2014   #5
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i used to shoot with the epson rd1s folding the screen away for 2 years no problems. should we expect the ISO dial to work similar to Fuji XT1? would be nice. i dont mind having one but not really into shooting digital atm.
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Old 09-09-2014   #6
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People who are sure about their exposure abilities already have choice of disabling picture review (set 0 sec.)

Of course, no LCD is really stylish approach...and saves a few bucks...for manufacturer, anyway ))
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Old 09-09-2014   #7
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YES!!
Leave it to Leica to pursue the smart and innovative thing.
I hope they:

1. Leave a tiny LCD that shows histogram, battery, iso, exposure compensation, picture number, etc.
2. Give an option to send a preview image to the nearest bluetooth equipped smart phone. I don't *always* want a preview, but it makes sense to be able to do it *when* I do.
3. Trim the fat. I want this one to be as lean as my M4-P.
4. Longer battery life without the juice-sucking big-screen.

Now Ricoh or Fuji, it's your move.
Make this affordable
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Old 09-09-2014   #8
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Why couldn't existing M users tape the screen up? Why wouldn't Leica put in a modern, nice hinged display? Then the user could maybe choose between screen and no screen?
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Old 09-09-2014   #9
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I'm sure they're going to sell this at a premium. One thing they could do better imo is slim it down, the digital Ms are way too chunky for what is technically possible today. Look at the Sonys and the Fujis

On the other hand, people will surely complain no matter what they do (or don't do)
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Old 09-09-2014   #10
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Quote:
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I hope they:
...
3. Trim the fat. I want this one to be as lean as my M4-P.
...
Make this affordable
A lean, thin , minimalist camera would really hit the mark.
A limited run M.240 body with a blanking plate for the LCD - will not.
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Old 09-09-2014   #11
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Apparently it's going to have the same body dimensions as the current M240. I doubt Leica would tool a completely different body shape just for this camera. They are well known for using existing parts to make so-called 'new editions.'

"The thickness and dimensions will also be similar to the M240."

"The M60 will most likely be a limited edition run and it will come together with one lens (either the 35mm or 50mm Summilux). A famous designer (or design studio) will be involved in the making of this model. This limited M60 will be made out of a "unique" metal/material - something that Leica has never done before and it will be priced "reasonably" (in Leica terms.)"

This won't have the same tactile feel as a film M nor the same ergonomics (e.g., film advance lever.) Or the weight/heft and shape. And of course the shutter won't be a cloth shutter with the distinct film M sound and feel. imho, what makes a film M so satisfying to use are those things missing in the current digital versions. Like Jack Sparrow says, why not just use a film M. Nikon tried this with the Df and look what happened. It seems like a digital camera can never be made to feel exactly like film cameras of the past.
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Old 09-09-2014   #12
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I don't know... Sounds kind of stupid, if you ask me. Why not just shoot film, then?
You may prefer the results of digital but the feel of film cameras?
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Old 09-09-2014   #13
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Hey, that is my idea from 3 years ago! But I think it's gonna be a disappointment if it's just an M240 with screen removed...
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Old 09-09-2014   #14
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Originally Posted by VertovSvilova View Post
This limited M60 will be made out of a "unique" metal/material - something that Leica has never done before
Element #60 would make for interesting handling.
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Old 09-09-2014   #15
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Originally Posted by VertovSvilova View Post
This limited M60 will be made out of a "unique" metal/material - something that Leica has never done before
Anyone have any thoughts on cobalt-chromium alloy for a camera body ?

It looks good; it's machine-able, tough, scratch resistant and good enough for medical implants and dental work.
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Old 09-10-2014   #16
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I will believe it when I see it. If a special edition, my estimate of the price is $ 30.000 or so..

Not very interesting really, especially as I am perfectly capable of switching off the LCD on all my other digitals..... (no, I do not own a Leica T....)

As for the thickness, consider the register distance of the lenses. Leica is bound by the retrocompatability off their legacy lenses. Just put an M adapter on an NEX and note the "tower" protruding....

The LCD does indeed contribute to the thickness of the DigiMs, but then, the mount protrudes a bit as well. The main culprit is, however, the sensor/motherboard assembly. So for a thin camera, you would want a sensorless camera....
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Old 09-10-2014   #17
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Anyone have any thoughts on cobalt-chromium alloy for a camera body ?

It looks good; it's machine-able, tough, scratch resistant and good enough for medical implants and dental work.
Beautiful idea. Have the camera implanted into your head and save on computers, monitors and printers
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Old 09-10-2014   #18
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If this is Leica responding to user opinions how come they never hear us when we say the things should cost less?
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Old 09-10-2014   #19
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If this is Leica responding to user opinions how come they never hear us when we say the things should cost less?
Sorry Keith.. what did you say?




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Old 09-10-2014   #20
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Sorry Keith.. what did you say?




Dave

LOL .......
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Old 09-10-2014   #21
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Why no buy a damaged M with a broken LCD?
Would be cheaper, but lacks the ISO setting.
Another dial missing; following the logic, it would be even more valuable.

But jokes aside, I would like the idea of a digital camera without LCD. But I wound not pay more for it.
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Old 09-10-2014   #22
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just a question. how will you access menus/settings etc if there's no screen ? unless they do a Nikon Df with manual controls, then a menu driven camera needs some type of lcd no ?
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Old 09-10-2014   #23
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just a question. how will you access menus/settings etc if there's no screen ? unless they do a Nikon Df with manual controls, then a menu driven camera needs some type of lcd no ?
Telepathy of course....




Cheers,
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(seriously though, good point)
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Old 09-10-2014   #24
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just a question. how will you access menus/settings etc if there's no screen ? unless they do a Nikon Df with manual controls, then a menu driven camera needs some type of lcd no ?
That's the point...there are no menus. All settings will be via dials and buttons. Rumored to at least...
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Old 09-10-2014   #25
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just a question. how will you access menus/settings etc if there's no screen ? unless they do a Nikon Df with manual controls, then a menu driven camera needs some type of lcd no ?
Remember this is not for the faint of heart

If 1:This camera shoots Raw/DNG only
2: has a rapid blinking red dot in viewfinder ( M7) to let you know that you are clipping
3: only uses 6 bit coded lenses and
4: has an ISO wheel that incorporates a Kelvin wheel both with auto settings,

You don't need an LCD anywhere on the camera.

Sad that this has to be a limited edition camera
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Old 09-10-2014   #26
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YES!!
Leave it to Leica to pursue the smart and innovative thing.
I hope they:

1. Leave a tiny LCD that shows histogram, battery, iso, exposure compensation, picture number, etc.
2. Give an option to send a preview image to the nearest bluetooth equipped smart phone. I don't *always* want a preview, but it makes sense to be able to do it *when* I do.
3. Trim the fat. I want this one to be as lean as my M4-P.
4. Longer battery life without the juice-sucking big-screen.

Now Ricoh or Fuji, it's your move.
Make this affordable
I suggested this several months at and got scoarched for it but I totally agree. On my Nikon Df I turned the LCD off and use the dials and prime lenses. Very nice! If you know what you're doing you don't need the LCD / histogram. We didn't have one when we shot film.
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Old 09-10-2014   #27
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A pure manual digital would be awfully cool, but as discussed elsewhere on RFf ... a simple ad hoc wireless connection with phone, tablet, etc. app for settings and review.
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Old 09-10-2014   #28
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You may prefer the results of digital but the feel of film cameras?
This is me.

Also the rumor of a blue tooth Monochom is interesting. Lets say that Leica uses Bluetooth technology and intergrates their design to work with say Apple's super sized Iphone. The complaint about the low resolution screen on digital M's becomes moot. This also allows stripping out mucho knobs and controls which are kinda set and forget. For non 6-bit lenses you have to use your large screen Iphone for the lens setting. Basically the M-60 ideally only has three controls: shutter release; ISO and aperature on the lens.

This would be just like a film camera to me, except digital image capture, and I'm totally old school.

Recently at Fashion Week NYC I see how media has evolved. At Lincoln Center I saw all these hipsters texting, but My girl who just launched a blog pointed out that all those people I believed to be texting were all using social media to communicate all around the world with visual images and text. Welcome to the future, and I applaud Leica if they have the vision to create and promote the future.

Two and a half years ago I remember all the bashing with the rumors about a Monochrome camera... Many called that idea stupid back then. HA-HA.

How about this: Leica invents a Blue tooth camera that uses cloud technology and this is the reason why only raw files come out of the camera. Perhaps not good if you live in the Adorandacks or some wilderness, but for fast paced urban dwellers (a growing demographic) it is mighty cool.

THINK OUT OF THE BOX. I admire Leica for being truely creative.

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Old 09-10-2014   #29
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I'd love to have a digital Leica, with no LCD, a shutter speed dial that had a setting for aperture priority auto, an ISO dial, a built in light meter that read in the viewfinder, and a shutter button, and that's it. Outputting RAW files. I guess it would be an M7, but digital.

That's how I always used my M8.2, LCD off, aperture priority auto, set the ISO, set the aperture for the DOF I wanted, and shot. Very simple.

Might make me buy another Leica digital.

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Old 09-10-2014   #30
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Cal,

I hear what you are saying about the WiFi. When I'm covering sports, we now have to "tweet" images to the paper's Twitter hashtag at the beginning of every game, and then right after we submit our shots. Right now I use my Nikon 1 V2 for the twitter pics at the beginning of the game (because it is WiFi enabled), and after I've downloaded the images from my work camera and sent them in, I grab one or two and tweet those directly from my computer. But being able to tweet pics on the fly is now pretty much required of any event coverage.

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Old 09-10-2014   #31
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I want one and I want someone else to pay for it. Takers?
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Old 09-10-2014   #32
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Cal,

I hear what you are saying about the WiFi. When I'm covering sports, we now have to "tweet" images to the paper's Twitter hashtag at the beginning of every game, and then right after we submit our shots. Right now I use my Nikon 1 V2 for the twitter pics at the beginning of the game (because it is WiFi enabled), and after I've downloaded the images from my work camera and sent them in, I grab one or two and tweet those directly from my computer. But being able to tweet pics on the fly is now pretty much required of any event coverage.

Best,
-Tim
Tim,

I'm totally old school, but I really saw the future in an eye opening way.

Even though I'm an old film guy who went to art school in the 70's it is pretty apparent that another communications revolution is underway. Social Media and blogging is restructuring society.

If Leica's M-60 uses Bluetooth and is intergrated into say an oversized Iphone, I'd have to consider getting one. I really learned this past week that the world is not that big. Basically I want in. Also know that "Maggie" benefits because she is a blogger.

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Old 09-10-2014   #33
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I want one and I want someone else to pay for it. Takers?
Way back when the M9 was brand new, "Maggie" my gal offered to buy me one, but I didn't want to take advantage of her.

This time might be different. LOL.

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Old 09-10-2014   #34
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I'm sure they're going to sell this at a premium. One thing they could do better imo is slim it down, the digital Ms are way too chunky for what is technically possible today. Look at the Sonys and the Fujis
The problem is that the digital sensor stack is much thicker than a pressure plate and film gate. And the shutter and mount register has to be in front of that. If you look at the Sony A7 body, which is about the same thickness as an M4-2, the image plane is 10mm closer to the front of the body, thus the 19mm register distance. The Leica mount register is 28mm or so, so the body has to be about 10mm thicker for the digital models to work with the M-bayonet lenses.

Given constraints like these, I think they've done a darn good job. I'm not sure I want a digital camera lacking the LCD and easy access to all the settings, but Leica is catering to those who have been pining away for a simplified digital camera. The M9 and M (Type 240) are simple enough for me. ;-)

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On the other hand, people will surely complain no matter what they do (or don't do)
For sure. It's the tiresome nonsense that happens on every enthusiast board. Someone else said it best, "Any Leica announcement is a divisive moment."

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Old 09-10-2014   #35
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BTW there was another/earlier thread that proposed making a screenless version of the Monochrom that is somewhat related, but in that thread I defended the screen because the 1% clipping indicators and the 9-zone histogram that Leica created is such a useful tool for proper exposure which with the Monochrom is much more critical.

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Old 09-10-2014   #36
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On my Nikon Df I turned the LCD off and use the dials and prime lenses. Very nice! If you know what you're doing you don't need the LCD / histogram. We didn't have one when we shot film.
fwiw, one can do this with any modern Nikon DSLR (D4, D800, etc..) Everything can be read in the viewfinder and set by the front and rear command dials with the LCD turned off. One really only needs to get into the LCD menu when setting the camera up initially.

I think most digital cameras can be "turned off" for the most part and used like a film camera. For things like setting auto ISO or file type, etc.. that could be implemented with WiFi and a smartphone app in a camera designed without an LCD panel.

And I agree that while a histogram is convenient, it isn't required. We've been using mental histograms for different films all this time, and digital can be done the same way. And anyway with digital it's so easy to bracket without any concern of using up 'too many' frames....
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Old 09-10-2014   #37
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this news is interesting ALSO if they put back the film advance lever on...heck, you could even put back the cloth shutter and 1/1000th speed and i wouldnt mind.... oh, maybe replace the sensor with film and.....
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Old 09-11-2014   #38
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this news is interesting ALSO if they put back the film advance lever on...heck, you could even put back the cloth shutter and 1/1000th speed and i wouldnt mind.... oh, maybe replace the sensor with film and.....
With shooting digital high shutter speeds are your friend, unless you are using a tripod. I would not want 1/1000th as my maximum because I like sharp images and because digital is higher resolution than film the added high shutter speeds are a big asset.

I'm an old analog film guy who went to art school in the 70's; I only went digital when Leica created the perfect camera for a guy like me (Monochrom); but shooting the Monochrom has made me a better photographer in a profound way because digital is so unforgiving. Exposure and good technic are well rewarded.

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Old 09-12-2014   #39
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With shooting digital high shutter speeds are your friend, unless you are using a tripod. I would not want 1/1000th as my maximum because I like sharp images and because digital is higher resolution than film the added high shutter speeds are a big asset.

I'm an old analog film guy who went to art school in the 70's; I only went digital when Leica created the perfect camera for a guy like me (Monochrom); but shooting the Monochrom has made me a better photographer in a profound way because digital is so unforgiving. Exposure and good technic are well rewarded.

Cal
agreed for digital, but sometimes it's nice to have that quiet whisper of a shutter that i have in my m4....an electronic shutter and leaf shutter doesn't quite give me that tactile sensation: quiet, but noticeable only when you are listening for it.
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Old 09-12-2014   #40
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Well, the M typ 240 is not bad in that respect at all...
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