Old 07-15-2014   #41
Tom Niblick
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I've used my M9 for 5 years and am convinced it is the greatest camera I've ever owned but if I was in the market for a new camera, I'd have to go with a M (240). I say this after just having had my M9 sensor replaced and now knowing this camera probably has another 5 - 10 years of life before this is required again. I hate to think like this since other Leicas have lasted me 40 plus years, but digital is a new world and we must keep in mind that the electronics have a life span. If it is 10 years, why let someone else get half of those years?

Still, I love my M9. The only camera I own that shoots better photos is my S2. But I hate carrying that beast around.
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Old 07-15-2014   #42
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I just bought the 240 after having the ME. Frankly, the 240 is what a digital Leica should've been in the first place.
Isn't that what the M2 owners said about the M3?
I'm glad that we owners are the one constant in the Leica tradition!
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Old 07-15-2014   #43
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What about the M-E?
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Old 07-15-2014   #44
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What about the M-E?
What about the M-E are you interested in? It's essentially the same as the M9. Some folks feel that there's been a bit of minor bug fixing between then two models, but otherwise they're identical other than for the USB port and frameline selector.

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Old 07-15-2014   #45
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Isn't the M-E less expensive?

Should this camera be a possibility for purchase by uhoh7?
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Old 07-16-2014   #46
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Isn't the M-E less expensive?

Should this camera be a possibility for purchase by uhoh7?
It is somewhat interesting, isn't it?

Everyone complains that Leica cameras are too expensive and that Leica should produce an entry level rangefinder.

Leica listens and uses the M9 mechanicals and electronics to produce an entry level digital rangefinder and calls it the M-E.

Thereafter everyone practically ignores the entry level camera and recommends the more expensive option to anyone and everyone, even though the M9 was, and still is, an excellent full frame digital camera.
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Old 07-16-2014   #47
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I guess there are different perceptions. Mine is that the M-E is old-tech (in digital terms) and offers slightly less features than a used M9 which can be had for a $1000 cheaper. Plus it's a funny color that you either love or hate.

To have interested me, an "entry level" Leica would have been an M240 minus the movie mode, live view, EVF port and multifunction grip capability, with perhaps the old-style frame line illumination system. Then again I think Leica felt such a camera would compete against the M240 and cannibalize sales; whereas the M-E competes not with the M240 but with used M9s, thus driving some sales in Leica's direction.
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Old 07-16-2014   #48
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Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
It is somewhat interesting, isn't it?

Everyone complains that Leica cameras are too expensive and that Leica should produce an entry level rangefinder.

Leica listens and uses the M9 mechanicals and electronics to produce an entry level digital rangefinder and calls it the M-E.
I think it may be because 1) it is basically a barely redesigned camera that was 3 years old already and 2) it still was $5500... which most would not consider entry level.
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Old 07-16-2014   #49
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So in other words, what everyone was really saying was;

We want a $7,000 full frame digital rangefinder, but we don't want to pay more than $2,000 for it.

As for an M9 being less expensive than an M-E...of course! The M9 is used. The M-E may not have all the new tech that is built into the M240, but it is still a brand new digital Leica. Unlike the used M9 it still has the warranty that comes with a new product. And at the price of a replacement sensor in an M9, that warranty may be worth having.
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Old 07-16-2014   #50
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We want a $7,000 full frame digital rangefinder, but we don't want to pay more than $2,000 for it.
No, they want a $2000 rangefinder that they pay $2000 for. It doesn't need to be made by Leica and may not be realistic, but $5500 is still too much for most to swallow.
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Old 07-16-2014   #51
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Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
It is somewhat interesting, isn't it?

Everyone complains that Leica cameras are too expensive and that Leica should produce an entry level rangefinder.

Leica listens and uses the M9 mechanicals and electronics to produce an entry level digital rangefinder and calls it the M-E.

Thereafter everyone practically ignores the entry level camera and recommends the more expensive option to anyone and everyone, even though the M9 was, and still is, an excellent full frame digital camera.
The only thing "entry level" about the M-E is the price, in Leica terms that is.
Leica created the M-E because the needed to be able to offer a second full frame M body in their product line without hurting the sales of the M240, so they stripped down the M9, lowered its price and gave it a new color and name. In retrospect they should have just lowered the M9 price and kept it in the product line. It would then have appeared that Leica was listening to consumer concerns regarding price.
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Old 07-16-2014   #52
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It is somewhat interesting, isn't it?



Thereafter everyone practically ignores the entry level camera and recommends the more expensive option to anyone and everyone, even though the M9 was, and still is, an excellent full frame digital camera.
Thats because the ME is identical to the discontinued M9 - which amongst other things means no firmware updates for the M-E

Full disclosure - I bought an M9P instead of an M240 because i prefer the design of the camera. I mean we don't buy Leica because we want the latest in technology-not since the M4.
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Old 07-16-2014   #53
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As for an M9 being less expensive than an M-E...of course! The M9 is used. The M-E may not have all the new tech that is built into the M240, but it is still a brand new digital Leica. Unlike the used M9 it still has the warranty that comes with a new product. And at the price of a replacement sensor in an M9, that warranty may be worth having.
Thus far Leica has been goodwilling defective sensors out of warranty. And I suspect that savvy consumers will realize that once the warranty is up on an M-E and it loses that advantage, it may quite possibly have a lower resale value than a fuller-featured, more attractively-fiinished (to the taste of many people) M9 in like condition.
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Old 07-16-2014   #54
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I hope that I will get a sensor replaced for free in my M9.
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Old 07-16-2014   #55
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In retrospect they should have just lowered the M9 price and kept it in the product line.
Everyone accepts a price-drop on a discontinued item being closed out, but keeping it in the product line at a lower price would have pissed off every customer who ever bought an M9, as well as screwing every dealer with any left in inventory. Stripping it down and painting a funky color was brilliant marketing psychology IMHO.
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Old 07-16-2014   #56
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I hope that I will get a sensor replaced for free in my M9.
Haven't heard of them not goodwilling it for these known issues (cracks and blooming of the coating), only if someone has scratched it by careless cleaning.
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Old 07-16-2014   #57
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I have always taken excellent care of all my cameras, and especially for the digital ones.
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Old 07-16-2014   #58
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No, they want a $2000 rangefinder that they pay $2000 for. It doesn't need to be made by Leica and may not be realistic, but $5500 is still too much for most to swallow.
I certainly understand the sticker shock, but it is entry level in Leica Land. After all, it is the real thing. Unlike Fuji Land or elsewhere where you buy wannabe Leicas.

And before I get flamed out, I have nothing against Fuji. And I prefer Zeiss Ikon, not Leica. It still seems to me that for anyone in the market for a Leica digital rangefinder, the M-E should certainly be on the short list. For everyone that is but this group.

Does anyone here actually own and use one that can comment on whether or not it was worth the price for them?
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Old 07-16-2014   #59
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Everyone accepts a price-drop on a discontinued item being closed out, but keeping it in the product line at a lower price would have pissed off every customer who ever bought an M9, as well as screwing every dealer with any left in inventory. Stripping it down and painting a funky color was brilliant marketing psychology IMHO.
This is standard practice for Fuji, Sony, et al.
If it was so brilliant they would be flying off the shelves. The only reason people by an M-E over the M9 is for the warranty.
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Old 07-16-2014   #60
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I don't want a Leica. I never wanted a Leica. Does that make my Fujifilm a wanna be?
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Old 07-16-2014   #61
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This is standard practice for Fuji, Sony, et al.
If it was so brilliant they would be flying off the shelves. The only reason people by an M-E over the M9 is for the warranty.
I have to think it's not just that, because an M-E is $5450 and a mintish M9 can be had for more than $2000 less. That's a lot for a warranty considering Leica will replace the sensor of an M9 free out of warranty for known issues like cracks, dead-pixel lines, banding, and deteriorated coating...and even under warranty they won't replace it free if you scratch it cleaning it. A shutter is something like $750 and the LCD is around $1200 IIRC so even in the unlikely event they both went it would still be a break-even. I think there are some people who just want a new camera that no one has ever touched.
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Old 07-16-2014   #62
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It still seems to me that for anyone in the market for a Leica digital rangefinder, the M-E should certainly be on the short list.
And it is, but it is generally the least desirable digital M currently in production. The M is a better product, the M Monochrom is a special product and better at what it does. For most who are about to buy a Leica, the only advantage this camera offers is the price. And for most people who want one of the three, it is still very expensive.

A used digital M is the real entry-level digital M. The M-E gives you, like the marketing speak goes, the essentials. If you "just" want a new digital M-series Leica, it is the camera to get.
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Old 07-17-2014   #63
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I certainly understand the sticker shock, but it is entry level in Leica Land.
True, I bought the M9 for $7000... so $5500 would have been better.

Quote:
After all, it is the real thing. Unlike Fuji Land or elsewhere where you buy wannabe Leicas.
Do you really think people buy a Fuji because they want a wannabe Leica? I, for one, sold my M9 once I used the Fujis... they were more versatile for my needs. They are different cameras.

Quote:
It still seems to me that for anyone in the market for a Leica digital rangefinder, the M-E should certainly be on the short list. For everyone that is but this group.
Again, while you and I might be able to afford these, many cannot.

Quote:
Does anyone here actually own and use one that can comment on whether or not it was worth the price for them?
I've used both the M8 and the M9 in the past... they were worth it at the time, but are not anymore to me.
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Old 07-17-2014   #64
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To the OP: my review in American Photo might or might not help: http://www.americanphotomag.com/phot.../02/love-leica

Cheers,

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Old 07-17-2014   #65
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Dear Roger,

Thank you for the link to your excellent review of the Leica M.

My hesitation to buy is based, perhaps I have the wrong impression, that in the digital world new models occur quite frequently. It can happen in few months. Spending almost 7k on a camera that will be updated with a new and usually better in so short amount of time I wonder if it's worth the investment. Or shall I say it's an expense? Perhaps it will work for a long time but who knows.

I have a Canon 20D that I bought in 2004 for about $1400 and it still works fine event after over 200k of shutter clicks. It is a back up camera now.

At any rate, thank you for your outstanding review. Nice to read your thoughts here.
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Old 07-17-2014   #66
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Had the 8 which I sold. Tried the Fuji and Oly with my R's. Bought the M240 and use my 3 M lenses. The R's are heavy although I have used the 500f8 on occasion. I really like the M240 and would not consider any other.
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Old 07-17-2014   #67
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Dear Roger,

Thank you for the link to your excellent review of the Leica M.

My hesitation to buy is based, perhaps I have the wrong impression, that in the digital world new models occur quite frequently. It can happen in few months. Spending almost 7k on a camera that will be updated with a new and usually better in so short amount of time I wonder if it's worth the investment. Or shall I say it's an expense? Perhaps it will work for a long time but who knows.

I have a Canon 20D that I bought in 2004 for about $1400 and it still works fine event after over 200k of shutter clicks. It is a back up camera now.

At any rate, thank you for your outstanding review. Nice to read your thoughts here.
The M type 240 is past halfways in terms of product life cycle - the M9 was announced in 2009 and replaced by the type 240 in 2012, so I would expect to see a new digital M some time in 2015, maybe even later this year.

Personally the digital Ms are all unfinished cameras. Too old the technology and too flawed the implementation to be used as work bodies, and too expensive for me as a "leisure" camera. Film Ms are all good and fine, but for digital Leica needs to step up its game.
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Old 07-17-2014   #68
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Dear Roger,

Thank you for the link to your excellent review of the Leica M.

My hesitation to buy is based, perhaps I have the wrong impression, that in the digital world new models occur quite frequently. It can happen in few months. Spending almost 7k on a camera that will be updated with a new and usually better in so short amount of time I wonder if it's worth the investment. Or shall I say it's an expense? Perhaps it will work for a long time but who knows.

I have a Canon 20D that I bought in 2004 for about $1400 and it still works fine event after over 200k of shutter clicks. It is a back up camera now.

At any rate, thank you for your outstanding review. Nice to read your thoughts here.
Dear Bill,

Thanks for the kind words. Like you, I live in fear of an ever-shorter product cycle, but so far my digi-Ms have been very good (M8 since 2006, M9 since 2009).

Cheers,

R.
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Old 07-17-2014   #69
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To the OP: my review in American Photo might or might not help: http://www.americanphotomag.com/phot.../02/love-leica

Cheers,

R.
Many thanks, Roger. Your excellent review of the M was very helpful. I must consider this camera's new features/capabilities in the context of my particular shooting needs/style/comfort....and budget!
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Old 07-17-2014   #70
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Halfway into the production cycle is my sweet spot for buying digital cameras. I save a bundle buying them as slightly-used or demos (my M240 was the latter, a thousand less than new), any serious mechanical flaws will have typically been brought to light, and firmware will have been updated to improve functionality. Owning them halfway into the next model's production cycle is not a problem for my ego.
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Old 07-17-2014   #71
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Well, after much thought and input from my fellow Leica shooters, I bought a certified preowned Leica M9P with full 1 year Leica factory warranty at a good price. I am very comfortable with the M8, which just "fits" and feels right, and so the M9 will be much the same, but full format. And I still enjoy shooting my old Rollieflex cameras!

I appreciate the RFF and everyone's input. Many thanks,

Gary
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Old 07-17-2014   #72
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Congratulations!! and welcome to the M9P club
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Old 07-18-2014   #73
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Thank you, and I just got some more good news about my used purchase. I called the vendor (Miami Leica) and they got the camera directly from Leica (Certified Pre-owned), and it comes with a Leica two year warranty, not one just one year. Warranty card will be sent with the camera and the complete package. That makes me feel even better about the purchase.
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Old 07-18-2014   #74
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Great news.

Have fun with your new camera!
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Old 07-18-2014   #75
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Thank you, and I just got some more good news about my used purchase. I called the vendor (Miami Leica) and they got the camera directly from Leica (Certified Pre-owned), and it comes with a Leica two year warranty, not one just one year. Warranty card will be sent with the camera and the complete package. That makes me feel even better about the purchase.
That's awesome. I've been to that store and I know the gentleman who owns it, he's very active in LHSA. Great people to deal with.
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Old 07-19-2014   #76
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That's awesome. I've been to that store and I know the gentleman who owns it, he's very active in LHSA. Great people to deal with.
Thanks Ben, I too, found them very easy to deal with. And they explained to me why my paypal payment went to "Dale Laboratories", which turns out to be the earlier, 'mother' company that includes Miami Leica. It was a bit confusing at first!!
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Old 08-01-2014   #77
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Congrats on the m9p! Good news about the warranty as well. I bought a mintish 2012 chrome m9p in December from my Leica dealer, and I have loved using it. I just recently sent ithe m9p to Leica NJ to have it checked out fully, and to have it matched up with my 50 Summilux asph. I am eagerly awaiting their return. The summilux was under warranty (the front element was loose, and Leica has tightened it), the m9p was not, but Leica has covered the cleaning and adjustment of the m9p as a warrantied camera all the same. I am grateful.

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Old 08-01-2014   #78
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Thumbs up

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Congrats on the m9p! Good news about the warranty as well. I bought a mintish 2012 chrome m9p in December from my Leica dealer, and I have loved using it. I just recently sent ithe m9p to Leica NJ to have it checked out fully, and to have it matched up with my 50 Summilux asph. I am eagerly awaiting their return. The summilux was under warranty (the front element was loose, and Leica has tightened it), the m9p was not, but Leica has covered the cleaning and adjustment of the m9p as a warrantied camera all the same. I am grateful.
That's good news about customer service, Kim. We pay for quality gear, and its good service that keeps us coming back!

I also use my m9p with a newly acquired minty 50 summitux asph. This is a great combination!
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Old 08-01-2014   #79
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The M type 240 is past halfways in terms of product life cycle - the M9 was announced in 2009 and replaced by the type 240 in 2012, so I would expect to see a new digital M some time in 2015, maybe even later this year.

Personally the digital Ms are all unfinished cameras. Too old the technology and too flawed the implementation to be used as work bodies, and too expensive for me as a "leisure" camera. Film Ms are all good and fine, but for digital Leica needs to step up its game.
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Dear Bill,

Thanks for the kind words. Like you, I live in fear of an ever-shorter product cycle, but so far my digi-Ms have been very good (M8 since 2006, M9 since 2009).

Cheers,

R.
The "product life cycle" only exist in marketing, don't worry about it. In case your "half way through" camera limits your ability to take good photos and you have money to burn, well then go listen to the call of the marketing folks. Otherwise I'd suggest to maximize the quality you are able to get out of your existing equipment.

The first part of Roger's sentence made me think "WHAT?" and I was missing the tongue in cheek smiley but then the latter part put things in perspective .
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Old 08-01-2014   #80
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Still using a low mileage M8 & M9P almost new.

There is some size where 25 MP will show better than 18. Higher iso is better with M240, considerably. Not important to me. I used Kodachrome 25.

M240 probably will not read non factory coded lenses.

I will not buy a used camera.
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