Old 09-17-2012   #81
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Why release a "new" Leica ME with the same sensor as the M9? I thought they couldn't get ahold of more sensors as they stopped making them? So what happenes when they run put of the CCD sensors in a few years and you can't replace it of it stops working?
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Old 09-17-2012   #82
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But is it any longer an M Leica? Or its something more like a, "Leica M lenses utility device with an optional rangefinder".
Ding, i think you hit the nail on the head there crazy leica, crazy. not for me but some will love it i am sure.
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Old 09-17-2012   #83
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Why release a "new" Leica ME with the same sensor as the M9? I thought they couldn't get ahold of more sensors as they stopped making them? So what happenes when they run put of the CCD sensors in a few years and you can't replace it of it stops working?
Maybe i am wrong, i think only the M8 sensors are no longer available in production
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Old 09-17-2012   #84
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Ding, i think you hit the nail on the head there crazy leica, crazy. not for me but some will love it i am sure.
Not so crazy because Leica market is now east Asia where the name Leica itself is the product, the rest is just icing on the cake.
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Old 09-17-2012   #85
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Not so crazy because Leica market is now east Asia where the name Leica itself is the product, the rest is just icing on the cake.
this is true
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Old 09-17-2012   #86
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The spec sheet doesn't mention that, either. But, then again, neither do the spec sheets for the M-E or M9/M9-P.
But the press releases & promotional materials for the M9 sure did.
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Old 09-17-2012   #87
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four words: Replacement Body, Lead Bag.
It's not a huge issue but lead bags will do exactly nothing to help. Cosmic rays are energetic enough to go through a lead bag like it's tissue paper. That's why Kodak (sigh) store their master film rolls in caves miles beneath-ground.
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Old 09-17-2012   #88
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I am waiting for that Noctilux movie thread...
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Old 09-17-2012   #89
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Not for me. Not more than on an X-Pro1 that I can tell. At least w/the current state of technology (& certainly w/Leica being a step or 2 behind everybody when it comes to electronics), an EVF w/focus peaking would not be my 1st option. Live view, with or without an EVF, would be most useful for the occasional long lens, out-of-digital-spec vintage glass, or macro/close-focus. As I wrote earlier re: video, it's there if you want it, but nobody's forcing you to use it. AFAIK, the only technical cost is the extra 5mm of thickness added by the new features & that's not a big deal for me.

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Lets face it, once people use that EVF with focus peaking rangefinder OVF is no longer the first option... So, in the end of the day Leica itself killed its only USP (unique selling point) which is the rangefinder OVF.

Bad day for rangefinder photography?
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Old 09-17-2012   #90
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The M seems more like what the M9 should have been as far as basic operation is concerned:

good sensor and better colour (hopefully)
longer battery life
quicker image processing

Take a look at this video with Jean Gaumy - he's got the right idea regarding the red dot: http://vimeo.com/49544593

The video aspect and focus peaking, EVF etc don't interest me, but they are features others seem to want in an M series camera

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Old 09-17-2012   #91
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Know why they're keeping the red dot? Simple. In six months or a year, they'll come out with some limited edition without the dot for $1000 more.

Anyway, both the M and the M-E look to be cool tools and out of my budget.

I wonder what the electro Viso flex EVF is going to cost?

Everyone should have been buying up R glass before today because, no doubt, the demand and prices will both rise and we'll all be kicking ourselves for having not been clairvoyant.
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Old 09-17-2012   #92
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Can someone explain how did they get rid of the bright frame window in the new M? I understand that they have EVF, focus peaking etc. But they are still allowing the traditional RF focusing, correct? Its present in the M-E but missing from the M.



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Old 09-17-2012   #93
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So basically a DSLR-like functionality in a M Leica.

But is it any longer an M Leica? Or its something more like a, "Leica M lenses utility device with an optional rangefinder".
...with that optional RF, perhaps in a couple of years (maybe less) being referred to in the marketing material as vestigial.
Anyway, that's the way I see it, fwiw. The other question is, who will announce a compact full frame interchangeable lens mirrorless camera w/evf only? The FF nex and the next version of the M are looking like natural born enemies.
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Old 09-17-2012   #94
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'Film Advance' thumb wheel. The wonders of the modern age!

I like the built in thumbs-up and the improved lcd screen.

While the rest brings it up to date, I can't help thinking for digital there are uglier cameras out there that get the job done better.

It's not that there is anything wrong with it and it might be the perfect fit for many a photographer, it just seems too much of a compromise between trying to adhere to M tradition and keeping up with state of play.

That's my initial reaction anyway, might change with real world usage reports.
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Old 09-17-2012   #95
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Can someone explain how did they get rid of the bright frame window in the new M? I understand that they have EVF, focus peaking etc. But they are still allowing the traditional RF focusing, correct? Its present in the M-E but missing from the M.
LED illuminated frame lines, as used in the M9 titanium.
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Old 09-17-2012   #96
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Can someone explain how did they get rid of the bright frame window in the new M? I understand that they have EVF, focus peaking etc. But they are still allowing the traditional RF focusing, correct? Its present in the M-E but missing from the M.
Frame lines are lit with LEDs like the Leica M9 Titanium.
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Old 09-17-2012   #97
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Know why they're keeping the red dot? Simple. In six months or a year, they'll come out with some limited edition without the dot for $1000 more..
Or just changing that hideous silver plastic selector to black.
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Old 09-17-2012   #98
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Frame lines are lit with LEDs like the Leica M9 Titanium.

ahhh, ok. now understood.

all said and done, I will be anxiously waiting to see some images from the new sensor from the new kid in town, CMOSIS.
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Old 09-17-2012   #99
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I initially posted this as a separate thread. Somebody complained and I decided just to add it here.

As we all know by now, Leica announced the Leica M and Leica M-E.
Below are a few links to associated sites and such:

All new products
A list of all new products announced on Leica's official parts.

New Leica M Official page of the new Leica M.

I highly recommend a look at the Brochure (10MB PDF) and Specifications (1MB PDF).

DPReview as well announced it.

The price of the new Leica M is set to retail at about $7000 USD.

New Leica M-E Official page of the new Leica M-E.

DPReview announcement of the Leica M-E.

The price of the new Leica M-E is set to retail at about $5500 USD.

I will update this post with features I find interesting and have noticed people missed on.

One such example being the new grip, which has both a remote tethered triggering function (with a computer attached) as well as built-in GPS,
And the grip also has a secondary hotshoe, in case you want to use Flash and EVF at the same time. Quite clever.

Another feature is LED lit frame lines on the Leica M. A feature that carried over from the Leica M9 Titanium. Also clever.
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Old 09-17-2012   #100
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And still, no one has a clue about the "guts" of this thing - that is; the sensor - until someone (anyone) puts that thing through some rigorous tests I will reserve my judgment on the camera itself.

I hope for an awesome camera but you'll excuse me if I hold my breath considering I don't know of any other camera maker that is using a CMOSIS branded sensor.

Cheers,
Dave
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Old 09-17-2012   #101
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I hope for an awesome camera but you'll excuse me if I hold my breath considering I don't know of any other camera maker that is using a CMOSIS branded sensor.

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Old 09-17-2012   #102
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Huh? It still has a OVF and an RF does it not?
Exactly what I thought... talk about major over reaction
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Old 09-17-2012   #103
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Anyone know what this flat sensor technology is about? From a marketing standpoint, it makes the M10 peripheral sensor sound more film like. A Biogon friendly M10 would be nice.

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Old 09-17-2012   #104
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Exclamation

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And still, no one has a clue about the "guts" of this thing - that is; the sensor - until someone (anyone) puts that thing through some rigorous tests I will reserve my judgment on the camera itself.

I hope for an awesome camera but you'll excuse me if I hold my breath considering I don't know of any other camera maker that is using a CMOSIS branded sensor.
Well, according to their brochure, and DPReview, it is some Belgium based company named CMOSIS, technically the last "indie" CMOS chip maker.

However, there is a problem here.

Leica isn't particularly ... rich, and the company that is allegedly making the sensor is ... uh ... for people who can't afford Sony's massive prices for bulk sensors ... This sensor maker, CMOSIS, is kind of ... budget minded. They have been around only since late 2007, early 2008. So I doubt they were able to build a CMOS 24mp sensor from ground up ... not with those resources ... and it doesn’t have stupidly high ISO that is usable either.

So more than likely, it is a licensed Sony (or other big sensor maker) design (since there has only be a couple of Full Frame 24 megapixel CMOS sensors released in the last 5 years), with modifications made by the Belgium-based company, and some fab in Taiwan is making the actual chip.

Just like what Apple has done with the new A6 processor. Their own design ... but really, it is a mix of Samsung and other ARM designs by the companies Apple acquired ... and just ... optimized for Apple’s needs.

Right now, even if I was massively interested and had the cash at hand, I wouldn’t touch the Leica with a 10ft pole. It is an unknown sensor, and more than likely, it has an AA filter (to make the video usable).

Also, this camera has nothing new. It is four years old features. Canon 5D MkII had all these features, and was simply not a Leica or a Rangefinder, just saying, and definitely far more reliable.
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Old 09-17-2012   #105
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Well, according to their brochure, and DPReview, it is some Belgium based company named CMOSIS, technically the last "indie" CMOS chip maker.



However, there is a problem here.



Leica isn't particularly ... rich, and the company that is allegedly making the sensor is ... uh ... for people who can't afford Sony's massive prices for bulk sensors ... This sensor maker, CMOSIS, is kind of ... budget minded. They have been around only since late 2007, early 2008. So I doubt they were able to build a CMOS 24mp sensor from ground up ... not with those resources ... and it doesn’t have stupidly high ISO that is usable either.



So more than likely, it is a licensed Sony (or other big sensor maker) design (since there has only be a couple of Full Frame 24 megapixel CMOS sensors released in the last 5 years), with modifications made by the Belgium-based company, and some fab in Taiwan is making the actual chip.
I would think that Leica would not care if the basic design is licensed from a third party.. most likely Sony.. Rather, I suspect that they are looking for an end product that meets their specs and a manufacturer/design team that can be relied upon for the life cycle of the M10.
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Old 09-17-2012   #106
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Must not be a huge hit in usability. Nikon didn't remove video from the D800E did they?

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It is an unknown sensor, and more than likely, it has an AA filter (to make the video usable).
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Old 09-17-2012   #107
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6400 ISO, that's pretty hilarious. Haha. Splash proof is good though. Although that means eff all, define "splash"? Better than nothing perhaps.

Chardonay I suspect!
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Old 09-17-2012   #108
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I think leica did the right thing with "revolutionizing" the m system with developments from 3-5 years ago.
The live view was essential for the use of r-glass with the m and having the opportunity to use zoom lenses or macros when needed or wanted must be heaven for a leica shooter.
Video is just a nice bonus and a side effect of the live view and i don't think that it will be much advanced.
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Old 09-17-2012   #109
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Anyone know what this flat sensor technology is about? From a marketing standpoint, it makes the M10 peripheral sensor sound more film like. A Biogon friendly M10 would be nice.
According the the Leica M brochure, this is the tech of the sensor, and how it differs from conventional sensors. It is indeed more "flat", as in less distance between different planes. Which, honestly, sounds like a Canon technology, similar to what they used in the 5DIII and especially the 1DX. o_o

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Old 09-17-2012   #110
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Must not be a huge hit in usability. Nikon didn't remove video from the D800E did they?
That or it's not even using a Bayer array.

I'm somewhat excited about the camera and the direction they are going with the M. The LED frame lines are awesome. I've seen them in the M9T and wow, I really was hoping they would go this way and they did. And it should mean only the correct frame lines will show, no clutter from having multiple frame lines in the VF. In short, I want this camera!

The M-E on the other hand is not a good step forward. The color is hideous and I don't even think the price is all that attractive.
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Old 09-17-2012   #111
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Much as many predicted. I'm lgad they didn't call it the M10. It's a fantastic development which is good for all current owners I suspect. Those second hand R lenses just jumped in price. I suspect it will cost over $10k which leaves me content with my M9-P - for the moment.
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Old 09-17-2012   #112
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Much as many predicted. I'm lgad they didn't call it the M10. It's a fantastic development which is good for all current owners I suspect. Those second hand R lenses just jumped in price. I suspect it will cost over $10k which leaves me content with my M9-P - for the moment.
Um ... $7K actually. The same price as the original M9 when first announced, I believe.
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Old 09-17-2012   #113
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I am sure that the new "M" will sell small numbers to the wealthy but Leica has sealed its fate to be an increasingly niche manufacturer. The M and ME simply are not competitive by any measure you wish to use. I was shocked by the lack of imagination shown to us today by Leica management.
Its too bad. I am a Leica fan but its competition in the mirrorless category is now very good with better specifications and much lower prices. I just can't justify buying anything in its current lineup. I think this is a sad day for Leica fans like me.
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Old 09-17-2012   #114
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I am sure that the new "M" will sell small numbers to the wealthy but Leica has sealed its fate to be an increasingly niche manufacturer. The M and ME simply are not competitive by any measure you wish to use. I was shocked by the lack of imagination shown to us today by Leica management.
Its too bad. I am a Leica fan but its competition in the mirrorless category is now very good with better specifications and much lower prices. I just can't justify buying anything in its current lineup. I think this is a sad day for Leica fans like me.
I agree that there were no innovations per say, but the new Leica M certainly checks every feature anybody has ever asked for so far (and many other features some strongly opposed), short of an in-body sensor stabilization. It will appeal and sell to quite a larger audience this time around.
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Old 09-17-2012   #115
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$5450 US is still a lot of money.. about the same as a used M9 P today.
I think part of the ME's strategy matches the new Summarit lenses' strategy: set the retail price to be close to the used price of comparable products in order to capture some of that demand.
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Old 09-17-2012   #116
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The boxier silhouette is a bit reminiscent of the M5, no?
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Old 09-17-2012   #117
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Well, given the choice of $5500 for a new M9 EQUIVALENT (M-E) or a used M9 for $4900, I'd rather buy new. unless the M9 was down to 4K or less, there's no reason not to buy the M-E.
I completely agree. You're pointing out something I find very interesting. It will be exciting (at least to me) to see what happens as the prices move about.
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Old 09-17-2012   #118
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HA.. holy cow - I just read the DPReview item on this camera ("M") - availability is EARLY 2013 - looks like people will have a long time to save their sheckles.

Only Leica decides to announce a camera with at least a 5 month lead time before it is able to be ordered let alone be at any dealership.

Well.. at least we can hope that someone, somewhere, other than Erwin Puts (because he'll be all about praising this camera as the best thing ever... oh.. wait.. maybe that's Ken Rockwell.. ahh.. well.. either/or ), can get one of these in their hands to review it before hand.

Cheers,
Dave
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Old 09-17-2012   #119
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Well, given the choice of $5500 for a new M9 EQUIVALENT (M-E) or a used M9 for $4900, I'd rather buy new. unless the M9 was down to 4K or less, there's no reason not to buy the M-E.
I understand why Leica would want to use up the parts in their parts bin, but why not spend the extra amount and purchase the 'M'? Of course, I'm assuming that both image results and usability are much better than the ME/M9. Also, any sale of the ME is money in the bank. No new R&D resources were required.
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Old 09-17-2012   #120
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It will be interesting how the sensor performs once test cameras are in the hands of reviewers. Things to like so far that I see; improved LCD, use of long R-lenses, LED frames, better high ISO performance (?), a bit different menu handling with the wheel, weather sealing, video… more? What's with the 'M' name? Too expensive to engrave double digits (or other engravings), the last M-series?

For me, although the new M is an evolution design, I can see the M9 still as my digital M. Its got what I need. Still makes nice images with my great M-lenses, don't really need higher ISO with my fast lenses, the LCD isn't great, but fine to check the basic framing, I have a RF Leica because its a RF Leica, so although it sometimes would be nice to use long lenses, its not why I have a Leica, LED frames, again nice, but not necessary, video. again nice, but I have my compact digital I always carry for that.

For someone buying a new Leica and has the cash (its good the price wasn't in the $10,000 range like many thought) its an improved M-digital. If you want the 'extras' a good camera I guess, or save a bit and buy a M9/M9-P while they are still available new.
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