Thorsten Overgaard on the M10
Old 05-07-2012   #1
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Thorsten Overgaard on the M10

Very interesting!

http://www.overgaard.dk/leica-M10-di...ngefinder.html
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Old 05-07-2012   #2
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I really like Thorsten's style. Thanks for posting Dave, was a good read.
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Old 05-07-2012   #3
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For the reason of life continuity and the ability to continue to spit out Leica M cameras and M lenses, the M10 has to come out in a not so distant future. It would be stupid of Leica if they didn't have a plan to meet the rumors in the market about a Leica M10 (which automatically slows down the sale of Leica M9). Photokina 2012 in September would be a good occasion, because it's not coming on May 10 2012!
I knew it
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Old 05-07-2012   #4
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I really like Thorsten's style. Thanks for posting Dave, was a good read.
Agreed an both accounts.
Thorsten has always struck me as a low key guy who puts his cards on the table.
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Old 05-07-2012   #5
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oh, and:

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Leica seem to know these cycles and when to introduce what. So what if ... the black & white Leica M9 is actually a pre-edition of the Leica M10. Wouldn't that have a lot of us discuss with our self how it might actually be necessary for us to have the M10 now, and then one more M10 later when it comes for color?
I'm betting a B&W M9-P in 72 hours and an M10 on Monday 10th of September (M-10, again), a week before PhotoKina
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Old 05-07-2012   #6
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That BW M9 sounds too cool and it would be even better without a screen!
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Old 05-07-2012   #7
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+1
Thorsten's is a great read as usual. Very well written.

"It was Leica that invented the auto focus since 1960 (and also some unnamed Leica executive who said nobody would want it why they sold the rights), and it was Leica that invented the hot shoe for flash. And the list goes on..."

I didn't know that the auto focus and hot shoe were Leica's contribution to the photography world.
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Old 05-07-2012   #8
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That BW M9 sounds too cool and it would be even better without a screen!
Don't forget to mention a base ISO of 25 maxing out at 125.
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Old 05-07-2012   #9
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Leica seem to know these cycles and when to introduce what. So what if ... the black & white Leica M9 is actually a pre-edition of the Leica M10. Wouldn't that have a lot of us discuss with our self how it might actually be necessary for us to have the M10 now, and then one more M10 later when it comes for color?
One wonders in what way this B&W M due in May can be a pre-edition of an M10 coming out at Photokina.
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Old 05-07-2012   #10
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The idea of the BW camera, especially in this price range, kind of baffles me. Sometimes Leica frustrates me so much with their countless special editions, strange market intros, etc...

I wish their business directives were as simple as the M3. Sometimes, I think they should have stopped right there.
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Old 05-07-2012   #11
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He is like a knowledgeable and skilled Ken Rockwell.
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Old 05-07-2012   #12
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The idea of the BW camera, especially in this price range, kind of baffles me. Sometimes Leica frustrates me so much with their countless special editions, strange market intros, etc...

I wish their business directives were as simple as the M3. Sometimes, I think they should have stopped right there.
I don't know why these frustrate you because you don't have to buy them and the fact that they are sitting on someone else's shelves has absolutely no impact on you.
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Old 05-07-2012   #13
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Hehe.. +1, Araakii
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Old 05-07-2012   #14
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I don't know why these frustrate you because you don't have to buy them and the fact that they are sitting on someone else's shelves has absolutely no impact on you.
Totally agree. I'm not being a Leica basher at all. Promise. My main camera is an M6 and Ive owned an M8. I love the idea of Leica... Honest.

Sometimes, however, I wish they would take themselves a bit more seriously as a producer of tools is all. Lose the Panasonic cameras, lose the special editions, etc... And instead, focus on making the best rangefinders in the world. I know they got bit once before doing that (the m5), but I'd love to see them try again.

Just my opinion. I don't think you are an idiot if you pay 9k for a BW Camera. Hell, if I had the dough I prolly would too! I'd certainly own an M9 anyhow...
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Old 05-07-2012   #15
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Very interesting read. Thanks for posting!
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Old 05-07-2012   #16
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Kaufmann who took over the majority of the stocks, in fact almost all of them, just a few years ago, like to present Leica as the worlds only luxury brand in cameras. And in the same breath he will state that people keep asking that Leica will lower the prices so more can buy - "but that will never happen," he promises.
And that, right there, is the antithesis of Art. From Hell's heart I stab at thee, Leica.
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Old 05-07-2012   #17
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Fashion. That's the word that bothers me so. I don't want fashion. I want a tool... And I'm willing to pay for it!
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Old 05-07-2012   #18
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I like Thorsten. I enjoy his insight and his balanced perspective.

... And I know he's essentially correct in his forecast. A Leica is now more than ever an aspirational product.

In the past, photographers aspired to have a Leica. NOW, unfortunately, even current and past Leica users are priced out. It's unfortunate that Leica owns this space in that there isn't a real digital M alternative. A photographer's alternative.

Unlike Hermes, a Leica is a tool to create - not merely extravagant consumption. But that's not where the brand is heading, it seems. And it may be the key to their survival.

Good luck with the B&W rangefinder. I'll be putting my 'old' Leicas to use in the meantime and saving my pennies. I don't think I have a dog in this particular fight anymore.
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Old 05-07-2012   #19
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And that, right there, is the antithesis of Art. From Hell's heart I stab at thee, Leica.
Yep. But it'll need to be a gold-plated dagger...and commerce has no heart. And the whale ultimately wins, right. ?
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Old 05-07-2012   #20
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Fashion. That's the word that bothers me so. I don't want fashion. I want a tool... And I'm willing to pay for it!
I disagree. Fashion brings more color and fun to life. There are a lot of people with a lot of cash that does nothing to them, so having a very nicely designed and painted Leica for merely $40,000 can bring more joy than a number in the bank account.
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Old 05-07-2012   #21
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Oh come on people, Leica would not have lasted the way it does now if it had not taken this path.

They would have shribbled into nothingness and be bought by Sony and the likes just before extinction. Like Jaguar was bought by Ford, bringing forth to the world the marvellous design line of Fordulars, the most hideous cars known in the existence of a design-icon automotive brand...

Someday (soon?) there will be a busload of able-bodied M9's on eBay for a song because the worlds rich have ditched them since the M12 was launched and they cannot be seen boating off Saint-Tropez with last year's model
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Old 05-07-2012   #22
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Unlike Hermes, a Leica is a tool to create - not merely extravagant consumption. But that's not where the brand is heading, it seems. And it may be the key to their survival.
M6 or M7 were more expensive 15-20 years ago than they are now. If you were an artist, you should be happy because now you can own a fine tool for much less money. If you just want a tool to create work, you don't need the newest model.
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Old 05-07-2012   #23
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Oh come on people, Leica would not have lasted the way it does now if it had not taken this path.

They would have shribbled into nothingness and be bought by Sony and the likes just before extinction. Like Jaguar was bought by Ford, bringing forth to the world the marvellous design line of Fordulars, the most hideous cars known in the existence of a design-icon automotive brand...

Someday (soon?) there will be a busload of able-bodied M9's on eBay for a song because the worlds rich have ditched them since the M12 was launched and they cannot be seen boating off Saint-Tropez with last year's model
That's right. The more Leica charges the better because that means those who chase after the newest stuff will be the ones who fund our gears in the future.
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Old 05-08-2012   #24
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Oh come on people, Leica would not have lasted the way it does now if it had not taken this path.
Leica at one time made the best products and priced them accordingly. The company's current leader now says out front that high selling price is a goal for its own sake.

Good business, maybe —
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Old 05-08-2012   #25
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a real pleasure to read!
Thanks for the informative link!
Regards from Vienna

PS: he will come to Vienna for a workshop but I am sorry, I am not able to spend 2000 bucks for it :-(
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Old 05-08-2012   #26
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A purely B/W Leica why not, most Leica users shoot B/W Film if the IQ is good I believe there is a market. Phase One has a purely B/W Digi Back the Achromatic+ so there has got to be at least a niche market.

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Old 05-08-2012   #27
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Leica at one time made the best products and priced them accordingly. The company's current leader now says out front that high selling price is a goal for its own sake.

Good business, maybe —
Maybe that's just another way of saying that they will continue to make the high end products (and price them accordingly). They are still making the "best" products for a small target customer base. These people are not that dumb if they can afford this kind of things. They know exactly what they are getting and they know it's worth every buck.
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Old 05-08-2012   #28
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If Mr Overgaard wanted to do Leica a service, he should have used a less flary lens than the Summicron 50 ( a Planar, or a Summilux ASPH perhaps?...), shot it all on film, and applied some noise reduction technique, in order to make it look more plastic, and digital like, but with decent tonality - at least one could have been induced to think, that a B&W digital is aceptable after all...
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Old 05-08-2012   #29
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Totally agree. I'm not being a Leica basher at all. Promise. My main camera is an M6 and Ive owned an M8. I love the idea of Leica... Honest.

Sometimes, however, I wish they would take themselves a bit more seriously as a producer of tools is all. Lose the Panasonic cameras, lose the special editions, etc... And instead, focus on making the best rangefinders in the world. I know they got bit once before doing that (the m5), but I'd love to see them try again.

Just my opinion. I don't think you are an idiot if you pay 9k for a BW Camera. Hell, if I had the dough I prolly would too! I'd certainly own an M9 anyhow...
Leica has shown record profits in the last few years because they know what they are doing. IMO, anyone who wants Leica to change their direction is both ignorant of Leica's own research, marketing and business strategies in a real world and also not able to grasp the complex world in which Leica must operate to not only survive but to keep this wonderful business prospering in an ever-changing world.

I know that I would never try to second guess Leica about Leica. YMMV.

In regard to the price, whatever.... not an issue for me.
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Old 05-08-2012   #30
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No comment on this from me.
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Old 05-08-2012   #31
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Leica has shown record profits in the last few years because they know what they are doing. IMO, anyone who wants Leica to change their direction is both ignorant of Leica's own research, marketing and business strategies in a real world and also not able to grasp the complex world in which Leica must operate to not only survive but to keep this wonderful business prospering in an ever-changing world.

I know that I would never try to second guess Leica about Leica. YMMV.

In regard to the price, whatever.... not an issue for me.
I know... Its prolly the silly value proposition of the red dot Panasonic that even allows them to go to market with the M8, M9, and M10. That, however, doesn't mean I have to like the fact that they are openly becoming more and more fashion focused.

The whole thing kind of reminds me of Breitling watches in a way.

We all know it will never happen, but you do have to wonder what would happen if Leica provided an m-solution of somekind for under $3500. A tool built to be used by professionals and priced dependent on value/cost.
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Old 05-08-2012   #32
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Old 05-08-2012   #33
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Leica at one time made the best products and priced them accordingly. The company's current leader now says out front that high selling price is a goal for its own sake.

Good business, maybe —
Well said. Leica is mostly irrelevant for serious photography. Its become a fashion statement, and thats how Leica wants it, because as "fashion" they can charge exorbitant prices.
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Old 05-08-2012   #34
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The idea of the BW camera, especially in this price range, kind of baffles me. Sometimes Leica frustrates me so much with their countless special editions, strange market intros, etc...

I wish their business directives were as simple as the M3. Sometimes, I think they should have stopped right there.
Good thing you don't run things over at Leica... (jokes)
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Old 05-08-2012   #35
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So is it now the time to complain about how bad the M10 is and begin to speculate on how the M11 will be too expensive? Well, I think the complaining about how bad the M10 already is has been around for a few years, but I guess now it'll be official? Oh and the Nikon D3 is better.

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Old 05-08-2012   #36
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i like the bit where it is suggested that a B&W Digital M to convert all the film users over to the new medium. This is a good business case for Leica, no ?

The other thing is T.O. is involved in Leica early access program I think, so what is he telling us ? A new M that isn't a M10 but a derivative like the CL ?

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Old 05-08-2012   #37
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Oh, no Gabriel... the D800e will be the thorn in the M10's side.
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Old 05-08-2012   #38
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i like the bit where it is suggested that a B&W Digital M to convert all the film users over to the new medium. This is a good business case for Leica, no ?

The other thing is T.O. is involved in Leica early access program I think, so what is he telling us ? A new M that isn't a M10 but a derivative like the CL ?

raytoei
Like I said, if I could afford it I would own an m9... I'm sure I'd own an m10 as well if it comes out like many predict. A BW only camera that runs more than an M9? Wow. Really? I can't wait to see what it's all about. Maybe it's magical.

All that said, do any of you guys go from your film m to your digital m and notice the tangible differences? Is it just me or does even my M6 feel more "polished" than an M9 operationally? The M3 almost certainly does.

That's the one thing nobody can ever take from Leica - the best film cameras and the best glass in the world.
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Old 05-08-2012   #39
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Like I said, if I could afford it I would own an m9... I'm sure I'd own an m10 as well if it comes out like many predict. A BW only camera that runs more than an M9? Wow. Really? I can't wait to see what it's all about. Maybe it's magical.

All that said, do any of you guys go from your film m to your digital m and notice the tangible differences? Is it just me or does even my M6 feel more "polished" than an M9 operationally? The M3 almost certainly does.

That's the one thing nobody can ever take from Leica - the best film cameras and the best glass in the world.
I went back to the M6 after using the M9 but I have no problem with anyone buying a new Leica. I don't understand why people have to justify their inability to own a new Leica by calling someone else the social climbers, the profane moneygrubbers or the wannabe nouveau riche. It's no problem if you don't have the money.
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Old 05-08-2012   #40
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Well said. Leica is mostly irrelevant for serious photography. Its become a fashion statement, and thats how Leica wants it, because as "fashion" they can charge exorbitant prices.
I wonder what's serious photography to you?
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