Old 02-09-2013   #81
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Originally Posted by semilog View Post
You can add noise or clip the shadows in Photoshop, if you want to. :P
...
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Old 02-09-2013   #82
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My position on that: those images suck. Not only from artistic prospective, that goes without saying, but from pure "IQ", whatever it means to each one of us...
And if it was said to be produced by Canon Digital Rebel, people would not give them another glance.
Sorry for being frank, what do I know :-)
Hi Mikhail
I have a gentle muse, which is perhaps not well represented by 'out of camera' shots, so I think we can leave the artistic failure as read.
From an IQ point of view, (apart from the obvious guilt of the executor with respect to dirty sensors, badly chosen aperture and camera shake). I'm confused. You've dismissed the files, but haven't given your reasons?
Pretty Please?
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Old 02-09-2013   #83
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Hi Mani
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Originally Posted by mani View Post
Anyway, to get back to the point - I really don't see the hardship in being a Leica beta-tester who then voluntarily posts some images to the net. I'm sure Jono Slack doesn't feel like a damsel in distress, and I fail to understand why so many knights in shining armour feel the need to ride to his rescue.
No. I don't feel like a damsel in distress. I understand the territory. On the other hand, nobody enjoys an Internet bashing, whether its deserved or not. I very much appreciate a little support from the more rational members of the community. So. Thank you to all the knights in shining armour (seriously, it's very much appreciated).
I'm intrigued by how absurdly rude people can be. Not personally, but if you go look at the comments on Leica Rumors about Thorsten Overgaard's cheerful and witty interview with m. Kaufman.
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Whether we like the apparent quality of the images or not like them is up to each and every one of us, and as far as I'm concerned a photography forum is about airing different opinions.
.
I quite agree. Your points about colour balance and tartan when pushing files are relevant and observant. But of course, this is pre-production firmware, and there will be changes to both colour balance and noise in the final firmware (of course Lightroom etc, will also have profiles then.)
Whether Leica should have produced files with pre-production firmware is moot. Personally I really like the files, and I think that the considered responses were almost universally positive.
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God forbid this place should get like the leica-camera-forum, where any dissenting voice is hounded down by a rabid pack of dogs.
Didn't seem like that to me. Plenty of dissenting voices (mostly rational rather than emotional). Don't you post there these days?

The reason I'm answering at length is that your post was intelligent and challenging. My answer in short boils down to two points:
1. It's good to have shining knights (thank you)
2. IQ is in the eyes of the beholder, but if you have to push it three stops to find a problem you screwed that snap!
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Old 02-09-2013   #84
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Back to the files - I've had a 2nd short go with three of them (DNGs). I ran a couple LR4 presets I use for flower shots with my 5DII and ts-e on the flower file after noting the "Canon-like" comments. The presets worked well with some tweaking and the Elmarit-R Macro flower shot stood up nicely to some dodging and burning. I thought the high iso peacock file did process like high iso 5DII files in decent-to-good light, not a bad thing imho. The DR in the bread picture seems quite good and the file didn't need much work. I like what I see and would like to see some prints.
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Old 02-10-2013   #85
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Thanks a lot for posting photos and sharing experiences! Its much appreciated.

Is there any current side-by-side comparison of M and M9 photos? Sorry if this is a bit OT.

I'm trying to keep track of the info coming, but its hard for me to filter out the useful information due to the noise from those trying to fault Leica and generally bashing those that contributes. We truly lives in the age of consumers, where some consumers believe negative destructive feedback is contributing.
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Old 02-10-2013   #86
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Thanks a lot for posting photos and sharing experiences! Its much appreciated.

Is there any current side-by-side comparison of M and M9 photos? Sorry if this is a bit OT.
Hi there
I'd have thought it was quite ONTopic. as far as I know nobody has published any such comparison. Personally I've long since given up posting any kind of comparison because of the emotional firestorm which always ensues
Obviously I've looked, I'd say that the files are different, but that the M files are still closer to the M9 than to Canikon. FWIW!
Mani. Leica are not going to pile on the on chip noise reduction as far as I'm aware (personally I don't think it's needed). But I think you've hit the nail on the head with respect to the "CMOS look".
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Old 02-10-2013   #87
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If everybody only cared about image quality and the look from a ccd, everybody would all be shooting MFDB.

Leica is trying to address many reasons why M is not used/considered widely as an alternative Pro FF camera.

Am I the only person who thinks that the high iso and live view is the real draw/upgrade of this camera? This means I only need one system, I can enjoy the RF experience that I value, and just pop on any zoom, tele, macro lenses without another body. Isn't it why people want a FF NEX camera? To not to have to give up RF focusing and OVF is all the better!

I feel like the people who don't feel like buying/upgrading to this camera are never the target audience anyways. Last time I checked, you can still buy the M-E...
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Old 02-10-2013   #88
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Am I the only person who thinks that the high iso and live view is the real draw/upgrade of this camera? This means I only need one system, I can enjoy the RF experience that I value, and just pop on any zoom, tele, macro lenses without another body.
There are at least two of us ... and if you add the other stuff: faster buffer, better resolution, weather-sealing, and better frameline accuracy, functionality is overall much improved. Still want to see and work with more files, that's all.
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Old 02-10-2013   #89
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Speaking only for myself, I made two critical comments about technical aspects of the files, one about moiré and one about poor WB in a JPEG. Please note that I balanced these comments with very positive comments about high-ISO noise and low-ISO dynamic range.

To the extent that I found several images disappointing, that was because I was surprised that Leica would show pictures that are not particularly good (motion blur, poor WB, dirt on sensor etcl) as -- to use their word -- "proofs" of the camera's performance. There was one spectacular image, the snow landscape.

The camera is going to be -- by far -- the best digital M, in every important respect. That much is already clear. If I was willing to spend >$2k on a fast-depreciating digital body (I emphatically am not), the 240 is what I'd get, without hesitation.

That does not mean that the device's limitations should be ignored. Every camera has limitations and (part of) a good photographer's job is to understand and work with (or around) those limitations.
I agree on the part that Leica did not choose the best images for the advertisement of the new Leica M, but I got to say that some of the images are really nice. Well, maybe that is just to simply show to us that this is as good as the new sensor in this "new" Leica M can get?
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Old 02-10-2013   #90
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Hey Guys
It's been nice dropping in, but the conversation is drifting away from the images, so I guess my presence isn't needed any more. Many thanks to those who've made interesting and challenging observations - I always enjoy coming here, even if it sometimes requires a little self control.
I'll keep an eye on this thread until Monday night, then I'd better do some work to save up for my M bodies!

all the very best
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Old 02-10-2013   #91
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Originally Posted by digitalintrigue View Post
Yes, one can pop on any zoom, tele or macro but capability is one thing; practicality of use is another.
It's very practical for landscape photographers. The weight saving, and ability to use many different lens and still have precise framing.

I'm not saying I want the M240 to be the 5D MkIII. But I want to be able to use a camera at 7k for more than one type of photography I enjoy.
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Old 02-10-2013   #92
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The last time I was out with my M2 and 50 Elmar I was laughed at by a photographer wondering why I was persisting with such a ridiculous old camera set-up. Outside of RFF and the world of celebrity there is no "status symbol" associated with Leica. If I enjoyed using my OM system as much as my Leica system I wouldn't keep the latter. I think it's far cooler to be walking around with the OM system.
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Old 02-10-2013   #93
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Another RFF Leica thread that started out with some interesting observations then veered wildly off track. I love it when photographers who have actually handled the camera under discussion show up, and then spend their time defending themselves against accusations that they are marketing shills, the world's worst photographer, a rich dentist, etc. Rather than, you know, answering questions about handling, their thoughts about post, etc. Seriously, this is the third time I've seen this play out the exact same way in the past six months or so. I can't believe I read five pages of this.
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Old 02-10-2013   #94
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I'm glad Jono is here and I trust that he has donned his flame-retardant suit. Please stay, Jono; our bark is worse than our bite.

I did post some comments praising the files as well as noting their limitations, and I am surprised that Leica has posted performance "proofs" that are not in keeping with what we might expect from a marque as storied as Leica. I would have expected more formal images made (and especially, selected) with greater attention to detail and technical exactitude.
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Old 02-10-2013   #95
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Originally Posted by rdeleskie View Post
Another RFF Leica thread that started out with some interesting observations then veered wildly off track. I love it when photographers who have actually handled the camera under discussion show up, and then spend their time defending themselves against accusations that they are marketing shills, the world's worst photographer, a rich dentist, etc. Rather than, you know, answering questions about handling, their thoughts about post, etc. Seriously, this is the third time I've seen this play out the exact same way in the past six months or so. I can't believe I read five pages of this.
That was exactly what I was trying to say, you just said it so much better than I. Wag more - Bark less.
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Old 02-10-2013   #96
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.... I am surprised that Leica has posted performance "proofs" that are not in keeping with what we might expect from a marque as storied as Leica. I would have expected more formal images made (and especially, selected) with greater attention to detail and technical exactitude.
i hold the opposite point of view fwiw. because many of the files i produce and process aren't technically exact and often aren't "formal," i find these more casually made images more useful to assess. i'd like to see more and be able to work with them (too bad we've chased jono out the door). to each his own expectation and need.
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Old 02-10-2013   #97
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Fwiw, MC, I don't need a $7000 camera to make technically imperfect pictures. That is evidence of my versatility as a photographer.
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Old 02-10-2013   #98
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good one, sem. but i don't have a $7K camera that's unable to offset my own stubborn deficiences. it's more like a $4k camera these days
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Old 02-10-2013   #99
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This thread has been wildly entertaining (war if opinions) but not particularly interesting (because it keeps veering off topic). I think I'll join the foray

Jono- Thank you for sharing your experiences with the new M with us. To my knowledge, this type of access to a tester isn't granted by any other company and I'm grateful. I've a couple of questions that you may not be at liberty to answer but I hope that you do:
1- How's the weather sealing? How does it work with existing Leica M glass?
2- Please, affirm that Leica has preserved the simple and effective menu structure from the M9.

Leica- I'm thankful for releasing photos that haven't aren't polished and that don't fall into the the fodder released by Canon/Nikon and company. It's far more useful for me to see the typical shot from the camera than it is to see product of tens of hours of setup and post-processing. Anyone with good technique and patience can get a phenomenal photo capture from just about any new camera (with interchangeable lenses), and make a spectacular photo after taking the time (and having the skill) to properly post process the file. It is far more interesting to see how a camera/lens combo succeeds and more importantly how it fails in common usage. So thank you Leica for taking a risk and putting out relevant files rather than marketing driven drivel that tells me nothing about the camera.

The M as a status symbol. Well it obviously is that (if for no other reason than because of the price it commands as well as the price of the accompanying lenses). Once you get past that, you realize there is literally nothing else like a Leica M on the market. The d***** camera is quite literally in a class of its own. And I for one am glad it exists. After having wandered and fumbled along in CanonvilLe, using an M is like returning home. Everything is where is should be be, and just as importantly, there is nothing else (extra). For me, the M9 doesn't simply not get in the way, it disappears when I'm photographing (until the jarring experience of realizing the rangefinder's out of calibration- but that's a separate thread topic).

Apparent color moire in files is exactly that: apparent color moire. Just because the files excite the pixels in our monitors doesn't mean there's color moire in the file. Has any one made prints to confirm if the moire is actually there?

I think this is enough fuel for the fire. I may return to add more
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Old 02-10-2013   #100
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Apparent color moire in files is exactly that: apparent color moire. Just because the files excite the pixels in our monitors doesn't mean there's color moire in the file. Has any one made prints to confirm if the moire is actually there?
You don't need to make prints to verify the presence of color moiré. It is a certainty that without an antialiasing filter and with a sufficiently high-resolution optical system, and given a subject that has spatial frequencies close to the sensor's pitch (or a multiple thereof), a periodic color mosaic sensor (Beyer, etc.) will show color moiré. The math is well-understood, and it is inescapable.

Fuji has reduced — but not eliminated — the problem through the use of a color sensor with a more complex "pseudorandom" periodic sensor array. Other solutions include the Foveon sensor geometry and the use of an antialiasing filter. As others in this thread have pointed out, the Leica sensors trade some aliasing and moiré in exchange for sharp corners when one uses lenses with short distances between the sensor and the lens's rear nodal point. This is a reasonable trade-off because it allows the use of legacy glass and the design of new wide-angle lenses that have high performance but a compact physical size (and a rear element that fits within the M bayonet mount). It is a sound engineering decision but like many such decisions it is, nevertheless, a trade-off.
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Old 02-10-2013   #101
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I think... We should take a look at some sample images taken by the infamous Sony RX1, A 99 and the Nikon D600... After all, all these sensors, including the new Leica M one is supposed to be made by Sony, right?...
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Old 02-10-2013   #102
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Semi

I agree that color moire can occur with certainty given the parameters you sighted. It is however not a given that color moire displayed on a monitor is actually there in the file. And the only easily available method of bring certain is the print the image where your dealing with a significantly higher resolution than is available in monitors. Judging images on a (comparatively) low resolution device that necessarily limits the output (as compared to high resolution prints) is a bizarre practice that I don't understand.
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Old 02-11-2013   #103
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I think... We should take a look at some sample images taken by the infamous Sony RX1, A 99 and the Nikon D600... After all, all these sensors, including the new Leica M one is supposed to be made by Sony, right?...
The Leica sensor is made by CMOSIS - nothing at all to do with Sony.
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Old 02-11-2013   #104
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Hmm looks very canon like.....ugh......
well said.
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Old 02-11-2013   #105
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The Leica sensor is made by CMOSIS - nothing at all to do with Sony.
Okk... I didn't know that... My apologies everyone!

No more Kodak huh?
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Old 02-12-2013   #106
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The CMOSIS sensor will be interesting, made in Belgium with heavy Leica involvement in the design... Another step by Leica to control more component design and manufacture. The Maestro processor comes from their in-house work on the Leica S2 and S models.
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Old 02-13-2013   #107
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The CMOSIS sensor will be interesting, made in Belgium with heavy Leica involvement in the design... Another step by Leica to control more component design and manufacture. The Maestro processor comes from their in-house work on the Leica S2 and S models.
The Maestro processor is apparently made by Fujitsu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milbeaut
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Old 02-13-2013   #108
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The Maestro processor is apparently made by Fujitsu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milbeaut
Interesting! Wikipedia says the Maestro (along with many other in-camera processors) is "based on" the Fujitsu Milbeaut. I have not found info on the degree Leica influenced the design of Maestro, nor who actually makes it or where.

However, there is this at http://www.imaging-resource.com/PROD...m/leica-mA.HTM

“Output from the new full-frame image sensor is handled by a Leica Maestro-branded image processor, as also employed by the company's S-system cameras. The inclusion of Maestro, says Leica, means that the entire image pipeline is under control of its engineers, allowing it to ensure images meet the company's standards.”

And, downloadable with this link http://en.leica-camera.com/assets/fi...=file_6988.pdf
Leica’s M brochure pdf file on p.15:

“The Leica M features a newly-designed high-resolution, 24-megapixel CMOS sensor in full 35mm format. In combination with the Leica Maestro image processor, originally featured only in the Leica S-System, the Leica Max 24-MP sensor generates the outstanding image quality of the Leica M. For the first time in the history of the digital M-System, every component in the image creation flow, from lens to image file, are Leica in-house developments. As a result, our team of engineers has successfully perfected the entire image creation chain for use with M- and R-Lenses without compromise, in order to exploit the full potential of these lenses.”

A few pages later the brochure shows a photo of the processor labeled MAESTRO with the Leica circular logo on it. So evidently they've put enough into it to call it their own...
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Old 02-16-2013   #109
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The sensor is actually only developed by CMOSIS in Belgium but made by STmicroelectronics in Grenoble, France.

I doubt that Leica Camera has any resources developing an ASIC, they propably just gave specifications to Fujitsu.
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Old 02-16-2013   #110
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The Maestro processor was developed by Fujitsu to Leica specifications and in collaboration. It was first used in the S2 and the use in the M was envisioned from the beginning.
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