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Recomposing & keeping focus.
Old 01-10-2019   #1
Fujiowski
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Recomposing & keeping focus.

I have a question regarding recomposing and keeping focus using a rangefinder camera. I have a FUJI GA645 which I can use in total automatic mode. I can use the center finder to lock focus and then when pressing a button move that subject to the left in the frame.

However, when I use my FUJI GSW690 and GW690 they are totally manual and I would like to know if it's possible to recompose while keeping focus or is that not possible?

What I mean is I'd like to use the center finder to focus on a person and then move the camera to the right so that the person is to the left in the photo. If that's not possible I can just keep the person in the center of the frame for the shot.
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Old 01-10-2019   #2
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That's what I do all times even with autofocus.
So I don't understand the question
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Old 01-10-2019   #3
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I mean I focus on the main subject then change the framing.
It is the normal procedure.
For both focus and exposure
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Old 01-10-2019   #4
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Focus and recompose
It is in all the manuals
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Old 01-10-2019   #5
Malcolm M
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Use an SLR, ideally with a nice bright viewfinder and wide aperture lens. Then you can see immediately and obviously whether any part of the image is in focus or not. Rangefinders are basically hard work with any moving, off-centre subject. (I may be drummed out of RFF for this).
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Old 01-10-2019   #6
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All manual rangefinder cameras work the same way - focus, recompose, and shoot.
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Old 01-10-2019   #7
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It's not possible to lock focus on one person or object and shift the camera's viewpoint to something or someone that is a different distance away and retain focus on both. Is that what you want to do? Even your camera w/ autofocus can't do that. Your best bet is to stop the lens down as much as possible to cover the focal distance with depth of field. If both persons or objects are the same distance away then no refocus is necessary if you reframe a shot.
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Old 01-10-2019   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm M View Post
Use an SLR, ideally with a nice bright viewfinder and wide aperture lens. Then you can see immediately and obviously whether any part of the image is in focus or not. Rangefinders are basically hard work with any moving, off-centre subject. (I may be drummed out of RFF for this).
Yep, this is a problem with rangefinders. It is even a problem with SLRs and with TLRs. I was advised by the maker of high-quality focus screens to not put a split image focusing screen in a Rolleiflex if I was going to be doing large aperture close focus shots. The 'ground glass' of the screen was coarser than on the 'no split' screen, making it harder to do precise focus away from the central focus aid. I assume that SLR screens can have this issue.

I remember my first DSLR's focus screen was not good for showing if things were in focus or not. Pentax K10d, APS-C format, known to have a large viewfinder for the format but still darn small screen. I put in a different screen that showed focus much better.

OP, the solution is twofold- to pay attention and to learn your depth of field in various situations. Pay attention to what you do in reframing. If you lean back and forth after focusing, step one way or another, etc., you'll need to either refocus or you'll need to think about keeping the camera in one spot. Focus, then hold the camera stationary except for rotation and tilt while moving your body. If you do need to move the camera from the last focus position, think about the movements keeping the camera the same distance from the focus point. Sort of like imagining a string of specific length and if you move the camera you need to keep the string taut; if, say, you move left or right, you may need to also move forward a slight amount as you swing on the string.

And then understand depth of field and how it will cover for precise focusing errors. All of the above keeping the camera in the same spot is relative. If you have four feet of depth of field and you are shooting a person from 20 feet away, it would probably be hard to lose focus. But if you are shooting a flower at three feet at a wide aperture you probably don't have much room to move before losing focus (and probably you should use an SLR if this is a typical shooting situation).

Learn to zone focus a rangefinder if the situation allows- depth of field, speed of motion of subject, etc.
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Old 01-10-2019   #9
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If I understand your question, you're concerned about recomposing after focusing, then when hitting the shutter button the camera will try focusing again, but not on your intended subject. The "AF" button on the top of the camera, does it turn off the AF? If so, then try focusing on the subject, recompose, then turn off AF with the top button and then take the shot. It would be a 2-button press, a bit ungainly perhaps, but may work for you.

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Old 01-10-2019   #10
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I'm not familiar with the cameras mentioned but....

For AF cameras you can usually just hold the shutter release button while recomposing and it will hold focus until you finish pressing it. With manual focus cameras just recompose and fire shutter after focusing.
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Old 01-10-2019   #11
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You need to understand how dof is affected on recompose. Focus in the middle and then turning left or right might affect. Larger aperture is, size of the negative and closer the distance - more likely to have less in focus after recompose.
Use dof online calculator to see how really shallow dof could be.
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Old 01-10-2019   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fujiowski View Post
I have a question regarding recomposing and keeping focus using a rangefinder camera. I have a FUJI GA645 which I can use in total automatic mode. I can use the center finder to lock focus and then when pressing a button move that subject to the left in the frame.

However, when I use my FUJI GSW690 and GW690 they are totally manual and I would like to know if it's possible to recompose while keeping focus or is that not possible?

What I mean is I'd like to use the center finder to focus on a person and then move the camera to the right so that the person is to the left in the photo. If that's not possible I can just keep the person in the center of the frame for the shot.
The short answer to your question is yes. When you focus on the person and then move the camera to recompose, the focal distance remains as it was with a manual-focus rangefinder.

The exception would be if YOU move or your SUBJECT moves between the time you focus and the time you trip the shutter. Then the subject might or might not still be in focus, depending on something called 'depth of field' (DOF).

Focus is about distance, in the simplest form. When you focus on a person X feet or meters away, and then recompose, the focus is still set to X distance. If you move or they move, focus is still set to X, but the subject may not be X distance away any more.

As others have noted, this can be complicated by the fact that focus is a subject that has many characteristics. When you focus at a certain distance, objects in front of or in back of that distance may be in focus or not, depending on this like your lens focal length, the size of your aperture, and other things.

I hope you find this helpful.
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Old 01-10-2019   #13
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I may be confused regarding what you want but I'll give it a try.

In short, yes. You can focus and then change the composition without affecting the focus...or exposure.

These cameras are fully manual cameras. You set the focus and you set the exposure. If you focus on a person and set the exposure then you can move that person (or object) around in your viewfinder to your heart's content without changing anything but the composition. Unlike auto-focus cameras, these cameras will not refocus until you manually make the adjustment. Likewise with the exposure.

And it makes no difference whether it is a rangefinder you are using or an SLR...or a TLR...or anything else. As long as that camera's settings are manual they cannot change until you do it.

Of course, if you take a step forwards or backwards or move sideways then you may change the distance between the camera and your subject enough to need to refocus. (This is where depth of field comes into play.) But if you stand in one place and only recompose in your viewfinder then you will still be properly focused on that person.

I hope that helped??

BTW - I love working with my Fuji GA645. Wonderful camera and awesome lens.
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Old 01-10-2019   #14
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Technically, most good modern lenses have a nearly flat focal plane, which means that when you recompose after focusing in the middle, you get backfocus. It's called cosine error. Forum member ferider has explained it here: https://www.rangefinderforum.com/for...d.php?t=148485
with this diagram:


In practice, and evidenced by people here who don't believe there's a problem, you need to have pretty thin depth of field, a wide lens and rather extreme recomposing to notice. Just do your own tests, theoretical reasoning won't help much figuring out the practical limits because we usually don't have data about how flat the focal plane of a lens is. A lens with focal plane curved such that the camera is in the middle of the circle would eliminate cosine error. Focal plane curved away from the camera makes it worse.
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Old 01-10-2019   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retinax View Post
Technically, most good modern lenses have a nearly flat focal plane, which means that when you recompose after focusing in the middle, you get backfocus. It's called cosine error. Forum member ferider has explained it here: https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-148485.html
with this diagram:

In practice, and evidenced by people here who don't believe there's a problem, you need to have pretty thin depth of field, a wide lens and rather extreme recomposing to notice. Just do your own tests, theoretical reasoning won't help much figuring out the practical limits because we usually don't have data about how flat the focal plane of a lens is. A lens with focal plane curved such that the camera is in the middle of the circle would eliminate cosine error. Focal plane curved away from the camera makes it worse.
All true, but as you said, the DOF would have to be pretty thin.
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Old 01-10-2019   #16
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"... Focal plane curved away from the camera makes it worse..."

I'm trying to get my head around this. We don't see much data about field curvature. If I remember correctly, when I have seen it, for example large aperture older lenses, it has been concave (towards the lens) which would mean that the edges of the frame are focused on more distant parts of the subject, which would make matters worse in the case of the example diagram above. Does this seem correct? Are there lenses that would improve the situation?
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Old 01-10-2019   #17
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This thread is a hoot ; )
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Old 01-10-2019   #18
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Did anyone read what the OP is asking. Never saw so many confusing and complicated answers. The OP isn't asking how to focus the GA645 but a totally manual RF camera.

If you focus a RF manual camera on a subject (which is in the middle of the focusing frame) and then move the focusing frame so the subject is now at the edge of the frame - no you do not to to re-focus or do anything besides take the picture.
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Old 01-10-2019   #19
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You have to be aware of the hyperfocal distance for what ever aperture you are using for your lens, and film size, and then consider the distance to your subject. Then you can use depth of field to maintain focus while recomposing. There are many handy charts on the interwebnets.
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Old 01-11-2019   #20
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Can a mod maybe change the thread title to include GW and GSW690 and/or move this to the Medium Format RF subforum? Most useful for OP would be input from users of these specific cameras, maybe someone has experimented to see if cosine error is significant of not with these lenses.
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Old 01-11-2019   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemermark View Post
Did anyone read what the OP is asking. Never saw so many confusing and complicated answers. The OP isn't asking how to focus the GA645 but a totally manual RF camera.

If you focus a RF manual camera on a subject (which is in the middle of the focusing frame) and then move the focusing frame so the subject is now at the edge of the frame - no you do not to to re-focus or do anything besides take the picture.

This. Simples.
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Old 01-11-2019   #22
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Cosine error is definitely a thing. You can see it happen live in front of you with an SLR and certain lenses.
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Old 01-11-2019   #23
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Just don't change the focus ring after focusing and you're good to go.
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Old 01-11-2019   #24
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If you change the orientation or tilt the camera in the manner described in the image you run the risk of getting cosine error. If on the other hand instead of tilting the lens you take a step sideways to recompose the image while maintaining the same distance from and orientation to the plane of focus you will not. Tilting the lens is a faster way to recompose and also most of us are too lazy so standing in the same place and tilting the camera is ingrained in our behavior. At least it is with me.

And so I take my chances with focus error - as someone else pointed out, some lenses (many older lenses) do not have a flat plane of focus - it is curved due to uncorrected spherical aberration, so theoretically the plane of focus with these lenses should remain on the main subject as you tilt the lens. I read somewhere for example that the old Pentax M42 Takumars have this tendency but many other lenses do too, which I guess is why many (especially) older lenses are relatively poor in the corners when shot wide open by pixel peepers and others who are inclined to shoot photos of brick walls ( ). And I am guessing that modern super corrected lenses with a flat field are likely to have the tendency to show cosine error when use the way this thread described for this reason ??
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Old 01-11-2019   #25
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In my experience, with manual rangefinder you focus on what you main subject is and than recompose. Recompose by just moving your main subject away from the center of the image, at your preference. Things around it willl be in focus or out of focus depending on the aperture/depth of field.
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Old 01-11-2019   #26
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Whether using manual focus or AF, once you've established focus or rather a focus plane, you can then move in any direction, parallel to the established focus plane. Give 13.8 billion light years to the right or left a try, keep us updated on your findings.
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Old 01-11-2019   #27
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fujiowski,
Out of the two dozen replies, so far, the ones I quote here are actual answers to the question you actually asked.

The rest are interesting discussion points and probably good info but for the cameras (and their lenses) that you asked about, go with these and you'll be fine.

Rob

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmattock View Post
The short answer to your question is yes. When you focus on the person and then move the camera to recompose, the focal distance remains as it was with a manual-focus rangefinder.

The exception would be if YOU move or your SUBJECT moves between the time you focus and the time you trip the shutter. Then the subject might or might not still be in focus, depending on something called 'depth of field' (DOF).

Focus is about distance, in the simplest form. When you focus on a person X feet or meters away, and then recompose, the focus is still set to X distance. If you move or they move, focus is still set to X, but the subject may not be X distance away any more.

As others have noted, this can be complicated by the fact that focus is a subject that has many characteristics. When you focus at a certain distance, objects in front of or in back of that distance may be in focus or not, depending on this like your lens focal length, the size of your aperture, and other things.

I hope you find this helpful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
I may be confused regarding what you want but I'll give it a try.

In short, yes. You can focus and then change the composition without affecting the focus...or exposure.

These cameras are fully manual cameras. You set the focus and you set the exposure. If you focus on a person and set the exposure then you can move that person (or object) around in your viewfinder to your heart's content without changing anything but the composition. Unlike auto-focus cameras, these cameras will not refocus until you manually make the adjustment. Likewise with the exposure.

And it makes no difference whether it is a rangefinder you are using or an SLR...or a TLR...or anything else. As long as that camera's settings are manual they cannot change until you do it.

Of course, if you take a step forwards or backwards or move sideways then you may change the distance between the camera and your subject enough to need to refocus. (This is where depth of field comes into play.) But if you stand in one place and only recompose in your viewfinder then you will still be properly focused on that person.

I hope that helped??

BTW - I love working with my Fuji GA645. Wonderful camera and awesome lens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemermark View Post
Did anyone read what the OP is asking. Never saw so many confusing and complicated answers. The OP isn't asking how to focus the GA645 but a totally manual RF camera.

If you focus a RF manual camera on a subject (which is in the middle of the focusing frame) and then move the focusing frame so the subject is now at the edge of the frame - no you do not to to re-focus or do anything besides take the picture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by olifaunt View Post
Just don't change the focus ring after focusing and you're good to go.
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Old 01-11-2019   #28
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I'm feeling a little sorry for the OP wading through this mix of contradictory replies to his question. If the question sounds somewhat confused, that's understandable if posed without knowing the answer. But this has resulted in some replies not so relevant to how I interpret the question, some accurate and some inaccurate! IMO the best answer is this one (don't even need to get into the math):

Quote:
Originally Posted by retinax View Post
Technically, most good modern lenses have a nearly flat focal plane, which means that when you recompose after focusing in the middle, you get backfocus. It's called cosine error. Forum member ferider has explained it here: https://www.rangefinderforum.com/for...d.php?t=148485
with this diagram:


In practice, and evidenced by people here who don't believe there's a problem, you need to have pretty thin depth of field, a wide lens and rather extreme recomposing to notice. Just do your own tests, theoretical reasoning won't help much figuring out the practical limits because we usually don't have data about how flat the focal plane of a lens is. A lens with focal plane curved such that the camera is in the middle of the circle would eliminate cosine error. Focal plane curved away from the camera makes it worse.
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Old 01-11-2019   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retinax View Post
Technically, most good modern lenses have a nearly flat focal plane, which means that when you recompose after focusing in the middle, you get backfocus. It's called cosine error. Forum member ferider has explained it here: https://www.rangefinderforum.com/for...d.php?t=148485
with this diagram:

In practice, and evidenced by people here who don't believe there's a problem, you need to have pretty thin depth of field, a wide lens and rather extreme recomposing to notice. Just do your own tests, theoretical reasoning won't help much figuring out the practical limits because we usually don't have data about how flat the focal plane of a lens is. A lens with focal plane curved such that the camera is in the middle of the circle would eliminate cosine error. Focal plane curved away from the camera makes it worse.
I have found this to be true in actual practice. Cosine error is real. Let me give my own example. I'm photographing a painting in the museum. It is an impressionistic painting, with no good edges to focus on. So I focus on the frame instead. Now, when I move the camera through an arc so as to center the picture in my finder, the flat plane of the painting is not at the same distance from my lens as the frame had been when I focused. Why not? Well, for one thing, look at the diagram above. It shows how the plane of focus has shifted when the camera was moved.

Or, imagine a rigid extension ruler that extends from my lens to the picture frame. It has a red tip where it touches the frame. It's the exact length of my focusing distance, which isn't going to change as I now swing the camera to center it on the painting. Now, where is the red tip? Is it in the same plane as the painting?

NO! It is not! Why not? Because it didn't move in a flat plane, it swung through an arc. So where is it now? It is behind the painting--maybe even behind the wall the painting is on. So now I am back-focused. Visualize that: it makes it easy to see. My point of focus is behind the painting. That's Cosine error.

So what to do? I don't swing the camera in an arc. I side-step until the frame is centered in my rangefinder patch. Focus. Then I side-step back to center the painting, and take the picture without changing focus. Done.
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Old 01-13-2019   #30
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The contradictory and complicated answers this question received, is just typical of the interwebnet.
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Old 01-13-2019   #31
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The contradictory and complicated answers this question received, is just typical of the interwebnet.
Unhelpful. The OP's question is legitimate. Some of us are trying to answer it helpfully.
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Old 01-13-2019   #32
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Unhelpful. The OP's question is legitimate. Some of us are trying to answer it helpfully.
Yep. And there are a range of answers, depending on how involved the OP wants to get. Sure, the 'don't worry, be happy and shoot away' approach will work much of the time. But if/when it doesn't work, the OP might have no idea what went wrong. So people provide more info to give a more thorough explanation of the issues at hand. Again, the OP can read these or can decide to ignore it. I don't see the problem here. Lots of voices, lots of approaches. About the only annoying ones are the one who denigrate others' attempts to help.
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Old 01-14-2019   #33
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Originally Posted by Rob-F View Post
Unhelpful. The OP's question is legitimate. Some of us are trying to answer it helpfully.
Hello Rob. I understand that people are trying to help, but as a "victim of interwbenet answers" to some of my own questions (mostly on other forums), I know what it's like to be confused at some of the answers one can get.

I was just pointing out, in a freindly and non-derogotary way, that it's the usual thing to expect.
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