Encouraging news.......
Old 07-01-2018   #1
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Encouraging news.......

.........from ADOX.
They are making significant progress with construction of their new manufacturing capabilities in Germany:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAYb-lF5LlY

and

http://www.adox.de/Photo/category/ne...building-2017/
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Old 07-01-2018   #2
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They have a blog where we can literally watch the paint dry in the building where yet another couple of (BW only!!!) films will come out.

And there are still people who don’t see the film resurgence!!!
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Old 07-01-2018   #3
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I'm very, very glad that there are still companies devoted not only to the preservation of currently available film products but to the development of new products. It is, indeed, a source of hope.

Trends are fleeting and there's no telling how long there will still be an interest in this stuff so I relish and applaud any effort to make the most of it while it lasts.
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Old 07-01-2018   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brbo View Post
They have a blog where we can literally watch the paint dry in the building where yet another couple of (BW only!!!) films will come out.

And there are still people who don’t see the film resurgence!!!
I went to Toronto Zoo yesterday, I was only one with film camera.
Recently one of the stores in large Canadian city closed their E-6 lab. It was no orders.
I'm going to local Canada Day today event, as usual I'll be one and only with film camera.
And local Walmart quit from film developing few years ago.

But according to you I'm living in G-7 country which is total abnormally.
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Old 07-01-2018   #5
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
I went to Toronto Zoo yesterday, I was only one with film camera.
Recently one of the stores in large Canadian city closed their E-6 lab. It was no orders.
I'm going to local Canada Day today event, as usual I'll be one and only with film camera.
And local Walmart quit from film developing few years ago.

But according to you I'm living in G-7 country which is total abnormally.
Shopper's Drug Mart still takes in colour film for development and printing, for how long this lasts I am not making any predictions on.
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Old 07-05-2018   #6
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In the video they mentioned a new infrared film in a side note.
I've asked them about it whether I've got that right. And indeed, there will be a new infrared capable film by Adox. Probably even soon, this summer, before next Photokina.
It will be a very fine grained, very sharp and high resolving film usable for normal photography, infrared, negative and reversal development. Due to their statement.
Sounds quite good to me. Seems to be a very versatile film.
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Old 07-06-2018   #7
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And further positive news from Adox:
They are starting to implement former Agfa high-tec machinery in their new factory:
http://www.adox.de/Photo/first-works-on-the-coater/
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Old 07-19-2018   #8
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And more good news: Current progress with the new slitting machine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKe94N8Ee_k
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Old 07-19-2018   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brbo View Post
They have a blog where we can literally watch the paint dry in the building where yet another couple of (BW only!!!) films will come out.

And there are still people who don’t see the film resurgence!!!
I think B&W film is in a healthy state. Everything else (film cameras, C41, E6), not so much.
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Old 07-19-2018   #10
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I guess I didn't put the right smiley (or enough of them)?

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Old 07-19-2018   #11
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Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
And more good news: Current progress with the new slitting machine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKe94N8Ee_k
I've just forgotten another link: The first products they have already coated on their modernised coating machine in Marly, Switzerland (which is a former coating line of Ilford Imaging Switzerland) are their new SNAP-ON filters:
Video in French:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeOeurbuyw8

And in German:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTA-Fu8y7-0
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Old 08-13-2018   #12
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Adox is making further progress: Their modern and refurbished 120 film converting machine in action after the complete overhaul:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZpSTvOUYdc

As soon as the overhaul work on their film slitter is finished (see postings above), there will be new 120 format Adox film.
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Old 08-13-2018   #13
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Silvermax in 120 for my Rollei would be a dream!
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Old 08-13-2018   #14
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I really hope ADOX succeeds in re-inventing themselves. I've never used any of their films but I think if they get off the ground and make more conventional films like 100 and 400 speed, I will switch to them. Last Friday Kodak gave an official notice during their earnings call saying they had 1 year to retire 400 million dollars in debt (which exceeds the value of the entire company) or their future was in serious doubt. With this news and Fujifilm's continual exit from film, there is significant room for smaller companies like ADOX to compete against the dying dinosaurs.
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Old 08-14-2018   #15
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
I really hope ADOX succeeds in re-inventing themselves. I've never used any of their films but I think if they get off the ground and make more conventional films like 100 and 400 speed, I will switch to them.
They already have the excellent Adox Silvermax / Scala 160 BW and CMS 20 II films. The new IR-HR and Adox CHS 100 II will follow in the next months.
An ISO 400/27° makes very little sense for them at the current market situation. Because this market segment is overcrowded with so much films:
Ilford Delta 400
Ilford HP5+
Ilford XP2 Super 400
Ilford Pan 400
Kentmere 400
Kodak Tri-X
Kodak T-Max 400
Foma 400
Foma Retro Soft 320
Bergger Pancro 400
Ten original emulsions. Which are in current production. Quite a lot to choose from (all other 400 labelled films on the market are either repacked Kentmere 400, or old, discontinued and expired film from leftover warehose stock, or no real ISO 400 films).
For a small start-up company like Adox it makes no economic sense to enter this extremely competitive market so early. Too much brutal competition.
Makes more sense to fill market gaps, where is no or very little competition from the large(r) companies. For example a successor for the famous Agfa APX 25.
Or infrared capable film, which they are already doing with the current development of the IR-HR film.
And of course they are concentrating on their excellent photo chemicals and silver-halide papers. And their new photo filters.

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Last Friday Kodak gave an official notice during their earnings call saying they had 1 year to retire 400 million dollars in debt (which exceeds the value of the entire company) or their future was in serious doubt.
The film production at Kodak has been profitable in most quarters in the last years. Maybe there will be a restructuring at Eastman Kodak, or a split-off of some business parts. But I have no doubts that the film production will be continued.

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
With this news and Fujifilm's continual exit from film, there is significant room for smaller companies like ADOX to compete against the dying dinosaurs.
There are no "dying dinosaurs", neither Kodak nor Fujifilm. Fujifilm's silver-halide business segment is profitable and growing. A billions dollar business being bigger than all other silver-halide product manufacturers together. In their last quarterly report they have announced to increase their market share in the X-Ray film market, which is increasing in several Asian countries, mainly China. And recently they have introduced new 3-Packs for C200 and Superia 400 in the North American market. You don't do that if you want to pull the plug.
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Old 08-14-2018   #16
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Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
The film production at Kodak has been profitable in most quarters in the last years. Maybe there will be a restructuring at Eastman Kodak, or a split-off of some business parts. But I have no doubts that the film production will be continued.
Kodak is indeed talking about splitting off part of their business; the flexigraphic portion. This is one of the most profitable parts of Kodak and also the only one that has growing revenue. Kodak hopes to get 400 million for this. If they get it (and that's a HUGE if), that would be enough to retire their debt. However, the remaining portion of the company would have no growth left. Most other divisions have declining revenue or at best stagnant. Kodak never breaks out the profits of their film business. It's buried in their Consumer division which includes revenue from inkjet printing as well as licensing their name. From this we can at least learn that film is an *extremely* tiny portion of the company.

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There are no "dying dinosaurs", neither Kodak nor Fujifilm.
Kodak is currently in severe decline. The stock has dropped -19% for month, -37% for the quarter, and a whopping -60% the trailing year. It is one of the most shorted stock out there. A second bankruptcy is a very real possibility, which means the ownership of Kodak will be wiped out. Again.

Kodak's debt rating has junk status. Their borrowing costs are huge. They have very real liquidity issues. Kodak's cash flow dropped 35% last quarter. Their last quarterly report indicates that a layoff of 325 people is coming in 2019.

Any one of these problems is a severe one for a business. Collectively they indicate a company in a very bad state.

Kodak is being hammered by the tariffs as aluminum prices are on the move up. That is mentioned in their financials. The strong dollar means that overseas business won't produce what they had expected.

Very little is going right for them at the moment. They need a break, a big break. It would be nice if Ektachrome would be that break but I don't think anyone believes that a new E6 film will contribute anything meaningful to Kodak's financials. There isn't a single mention of this film in their reports. Not one. That is a very significant omission.
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Old 08-14-2018   #17
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Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
They already have the excellent Adox Silvermax / Scala 160 BW and CMS 20 II films. The new IR-HR and Adox CHS 100 II will follow in the next months.
An ISO 400/27° makes very little sense for them at the current market situation. Because this market segment is overcrowded
For once I remembered that Silvermax/Scala 160 is the heir of APX100. They did have a project to make a direct substitute of both APX's but the 400 was shelved after a beta testing for market reasons.
IIRC APX100 was to come down the line and the project might have just morphed into Silvermax/Scala. The site mentions using legacy Agfa material (transparent base) as the way of producing it affordably but also calls for reformulation when that material runs out, and hopefully an introduction to 120. The IR-HR could be very interesting.

CHS100II is an Efke descendant. Tomorrow I've got a small packet from Fotoimpex and sadly couldn't order to try it. Don't shoot much B&W but I expect to, shortly.
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Old 08-14-2018   #18
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For once I remembered that Silvermax/Scala 160 is the heir of APX100.
Silvermax / Scala 160 is very close in its characteristics to the original Agfa Scala 200X. I've tested both side-by-side under identical conditions.
Adox Silvermax / Scala 160 BW is a bit finer grained than the original Agfa Scala. But also has 1/3 stop less sensivity. The spectral transmission / tonality is almost identical.
Yes, there is a great similarity to original Agfa APX 100, too. Because Agfa Scala was based on the Agfa APX 100 emulsion.

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CHS100II is an Efke descendant.
No, it is absolutely not!! Completely different films and technology. I've also tested them side-by side.
The new Adox CHS 100 II (a first production was already introduced in 2014) is much much better than the former Efke film: It is much sharper, has much better resolution, finer grain, and a much much better quality control. And it can be reversal processed as BW slide with excellent results.
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Old 08-14-2018   #19
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Thanks for the insight
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Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
No, it is absolutely not!! Completely different films and technology. I've also tested them side-by side.
The new Adox CHS 100 II (a first production was already introduced in 2014) is much much better than the former Efke film: It is much sharper, has much better resolution, finer grain, and a much much better quality control. And it can be reversal processed as BW slide with excellent results.
Sorry, I meant Efke substitute or descendant by way of characteristics pursued BUT with German quality.
At 5€ a roll in Fotoimpex it's really well priced too.
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Old 08-15-2018   #20
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Things have really accelerated since the post from 2 days ago. Kodak's stock is now in free fall, down -14% in two days, -30% for the trailing month. The news from the announced selloff of the Flexigraphic division of the company has not given investors much if any confidence. 100% of all of Kodak's gain since January has now been wiped out and the share price is perilously low, well below $3/share.

The owners of Kodak are taking a hellacious hit this month. Absolutely brutal.
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Old 08-15-2018   #21
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
Things have really accelerated since the post from 2 days ago. Kodak's stock is now in free fall, down -14% in two days, -30% for the trailing month. The news from the announced selloff of the Flexigraphic division of the company has not given investors much if any confidence. 100% of all of Kodak's gain since January has now been wiped out and the share price is perilously low, well below $3/share.

The owners of Kodak are taking a hellacious hit this month. Absolutely brutal.
This thread is about the progress Adox is making. It is not about Kodak.
Whether on photrio as "Ratty Mouse" or here as "Ted Striker" you regularly spam threads with your doom and gloom praying and leaving the original topic.
For 15 years now we hear from people like you that instant film will die, that E6 will die, that RA-4 paper and photofinishing will die, that only one last man standing BW company will survive and that in the end we will have to coat glassplates by ourselves. For 15 years always the same stories. But nothing of that had happened. In several segments already the exact opposite has happened instead. And no one could so far explain to me why it should happen now, when the interest in film is increasing again especially by the young photographers.
Last year Eastman Kodak hired about 5% additional personal in film production to satisfy demand. They have re-introduced T-Max 3200, are in the process of re-introducing Ektachrome, have introduced Pro Image 100 in Europe. No matter how the restructuring at Kodak will go, I am convinced that film production will continue. Because they have realised that film has a future.
As almost all other companies in the business: I've talked to a market analyst some weeks ago. He said that about 90% of the companies in the film photography industry are preparing for future stable or increasing business. The companies have the data, they see the demand for their products. I trust those who have the facts and data. And show their commitment with new products or services. And not the doom and gloom fundamentalists. They don't have any data.
End of story.
Back to the topic: Adox.
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Old 08-15-2018   #22
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Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
This thread is about the progress Adox is making. It is not about Kodak.
Whether on photrio as "Ratty Mouse" or here as "Ted Striker" you regularly spam threads with your doom and gloom praying and leaving the original topic.
For 15 years now we hear from people like you that instant film will die, that E6 will die, that RA-4 paper and photofinishing will die, that only one last man standing BW company will survive and that in the end we will have to coat glassplates by ourselves. For 15 years always the same stories. But nothing of that had happened. In several segments already the exact opposite has happened instead. And no one could so far explain to me why it should happen now, when the interest in film is increasing again especially by the young photographers.
Last year Eastman Kodak hired about 5% additional personal in film production to satisfy demand. They have re-introduced T-Max 3200, are in the process of re-introducing Ektachrome, have introduced Pro Image 100 in Europe. No matter how the restructuring at Kodak will go, I am convinced that film production will continue. Because they have realised that film has a future.
As almost all other companies in the business: I've talked to a market analyst some weeks ago. He said that about 90% of the companies in the film photography industry are preparing for future stable or increasing business. The companies have the data, they see the demand for their products. I trust those who have the facts and data. And show their commitment with new products or services. And not the doom and gloom fundamentalists. They don't have any data.
End of story.
Back to the topic: Adox.
You miss the point completely.

In today's world, film does not provide Kodak's financial strength.

In other words, the survival of Kodak depends on a lot more than film.

How much revenue does film provide Kodak? If we assume their consumer film division is 80% film ( the rest is inkjet printing and licensing) then using the most recent numbers film is a whopping 11% of Kodak's revenues.

89% of the rest of the company is non film. THAT is the dominate factor and THAT is what is causing Kodak's problem with the market.

It has nothing to do with film.

So you can state all these things that are going great with film, and I'll agree with all of them (except the hiring more people part; Kodak's own documents show 325 layoffs, not new hires).

But the point remains, and has not been invalidated with any substantial evidence, is that Kodak the company, is in VERY serious trouble, with their future in doubt.
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Old 08-15-2018   #23
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89% of the rest of the company is non film. THAT is the dominate factor and THAT is what is causing Kodak's problem with the market.

It has nothing to do with film.
Exactly. That is what I was pointing at.
So if even the worst case happens, that Eastman Kodak would face another chapter 11 situation, then in this case the film division will most probably be separated and spun off. And I think that would be the best solution for it, being independent from the rest. In a best case scenario we perhaps even see a merger of this division with Kodak Alaris: Production and distribution again under the same roof, as it should be.

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So you can state all these things that are going great with film, and I'll agree with all of them (except the hiring more people part; Kodak's own documents show 325 layoffs, not new hires).
The lay-off was in other divisions, not in film production.
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Old 08-16-2018   #24
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Exactly. That is what I was pointing at.
So if even the worst case happens, that Eastman Kodak would face another chapter 11 situation, then in this case the film division will most probably be separated and spun off. And I think that would be the best solution for it, being independent from the rest. In a best case scenario we perhaps even see a merger of this division with Kodak Alaris: Production and distribution again under the same roof, as it should be.

The lay-off was in other divisions, not in film production.
Wow. My point got through. What a great way to start off the day. I am impressed.

I hope now it can be seen that any "negative" news I report on Kodak is not in any way an active disdain for their films. It's simply a statement of facts regarding their current financial situation.

One cannot determine with any degree of certainty whether or not Kodak's film division would be profitable as a stand alone business. The published financial data is not complete enough to support that supposition. Of course, we can hope this is true and if it were, Kodak is free to spin this division off any time they want to. A lot of companies spin off parts of themselves for financial gain. Eastman Kodak did that with Eastman Chemical, spun it off into its own company.

That Kodak has not done this is a strong data point that it's not possible. It is very possible, even likely, that the reason Kodak's film division is said to be "profitable" is due to a whole host of accounting strategies that consolidate losses across the company. This would not be possible as a stand alone company hence the reason why it has not been spun off.

Finally, should Kodak suffer another bankruptcy, it is likely to be the liquidation form of this rather than reorganization. In order for the courts to allow for another reorganization, there has to be some belief that the company will be successful upon emergence of bankruptcy. Kodak failed as a film company with the first bankruptcy and may possibly fail as a printing company with the second. What will be the nature of the business upon emerging from a second bankruptcy? That's hard to imagine.

The idea of Kodak Alaris purchasing the film component from Eastman is a tantalizing thought and clearly the best scenario one can imagine. I join you and everyone else in hoping this comes to pass. But why was Alaris set up without the film manufacturing part of Kodak to begin with?

Alaris is quite a different company than most in one particular way: it exists to provide pensions for retirees.

Because of this, it is a very conservative company. I suggest that taking on Eastman's film division is too radical a move for Alaris to take. Why? Because Alaris is more than a marketeer for film. They have several other product lines and divisions selling products and services totally unrelated to film.

It would seem to me that the financial need to keep selling film is not strong enough to push them towards such a risky move.

That's my amateur take on the current situation. As always, I'll modify my views based on real time news and information as it appears.
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Old 08-16-2018   #25
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That Kodak has not done this is a strong data point that it's not possible.
No. It has been the opposite for many years: The profits made with film were burnt in the other (digital, printing) divisions of Kodak. One of the reasons why Eastman Kodak has not sold the film division so far. They don't want to sell a cash cow.

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The idea of Kodak Alaris purchasing the film component from Eastman is a tantalizing thought and clearly the best scenario one can imagine. I join you and everyone else in hoping this comes to pass. But why was Alaris set up without the film manufacturing part of Kodak to begin with?
I've discussed that topic with Kodak Alaris staff in my country. They told me that Alaris wanted the film production, too, but Eastman Kodak didn't want to sell it (reason for that see above).

But now, finally, let's keep on the original topic in this thread: Adox.
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Old 08-18-2018   #26
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An ISO 400/27° makes very little sense for them at the current market situation. Because this market segment is overcrowded with so much films:
...

Ten original emulsions. Which are in current production.
...

For a small start-up company like Adox it makes no economic sense to enter this extremely competitive market so early. Too much brutal competition.
True but after Adox dropped their pilot 400 ISO emulsion based on these arguments, Berrger and Foma Bohemia released their 400 and 320 ISO films nevertheless.
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Old 08-18-2018   #27
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True but after Adox dropped their pilot 400 ISO emulsion based on these arguments, Berrger and Foma Bohemia released their 400 and 320 ISO films nevertheless.
Yes, but the situation at Bergger and Foma has been quite different:
- Bergger has just picked up a film which was already long finished in design by Inoviscoat in Germany, so no R&D costs for Bergger
- Foma is a relatively big company (bigger than Ilford by the way) and this film was probably also already finished for quite some time; and for a company like Foma with a well working international distribution chain it is much easier to implement an additional film in the market. And Retropan Soft is a very special film, filling a small market gap - "for big grain lovers" .
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Old 08-18-2018   #28
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Yes, but the situation at Bergger and Foma has been quite different:
- Bergger has just picked up a film which was already long finished in design by Inoviscoat in Germany, so no R&D costs for Bergger
- Foma is a relatively big company (bigger than Ilford by the way) and this film was probably also already finished for quite some time; and for a company like Foma with a well working international distribution chain it is much easier to implement an additional film in the market. And Retropan Soft is a very special film, filling a small market gap - "for big grain lovers" .
These are quite different arguments to those in your previous post. I won't argue the Foma part - their distribution channels are indeed well established, covering all continents which I find remarkable but the Bergger part not so. Adox tried to re-release the already known APX 400 emulsion - a fast film with most beautiful tonality imo, even released a couple of hundred / thousand (?) rolls to the market but only made a single run of it.
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Old 08-18-2018   #29
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Adox tried to re-release the already known APX 400 emulsion - a fast film with most beautiful tonality imo, even released a couple of hundred / thousand (?) rolls to the market but only made a single run of it.
It was in fact a new emulsion. They tried to make it finer grained, but with the spectral sensivity of former APX 400. I've seen prints of it, as a friend of mine was one of the Beta testers at that time.
But at that time Adox was not completely independant in R&D and production. Now they are. They had a partner at that time, which was in a stronger position than Adox.

The market has also changed since that time. Now they have to invest all the new R&D by their own.
I am sure we will see an Adox ISO 400 film. But not in short or mid term. There are more attractive market gaps in other market segments.
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