Old 08-16-2019   #41
james.liam
Registered User
 
james.liam is offline
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nieuw Amsterdam
Posts: 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by css9450 View Post
If I bought one of these $8000 Leica 50mm lenses, would I be able to tell a difference among photos from it vs. photos made with my $80 Jupiter-8? Or my $500 Konica M-Hexanon 50? Just wondering, in case I happen to find a suitcase of cash lying about.
At f/2? Yes, very much so. Is it meaningful? Rent one and decide for yourself. Beats wondering
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-16-2019   #42
css9450
Registered User
 
css9450's Avatar
 
css9450 is offline
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,999
Quote:
Originally Posted by james.liam View Post
At f/2? Yes, very much so. Is it meaningful? Rent one and decide for yourself. Beats wondering

Not being a wide-open kind of guy, I already have my answer.
__________________
Nikon S2, S3, F, F2, F3, FM2, FA, N90S, D80, D7000, D750, Sony a6000, Canon IIf, Leica CL, Tower type 3, Zorki 4, Vito B, Perkeo II, Rollei 35....
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-16-2019   #43
james.liam
Registered User
 
james.liam is offline
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nieuw Amsterdam
Posts: 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by css9450 View Post
Not being a wide-open kind of guy, I already have my answer.
Exactly.
At f/5.6, I found it indistinguishable from any other solid 50 except for an absence of distortion. The latter characteristic isn’t worth $5-8k.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-16-2019   #44
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Santiago, Chile
Age: 46
Posts: 20,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by james.liam View Post
At f/2? Yes, very much so.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-16-2019   #45
semi-ambivalent
Little to say
 
semi-ambivalent is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: DenCo, USA
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
I don`t know to be honest... maybe I don`t know what I`m talking about.

There are EU rules governing this sort of thing. At least part of my MP came to Germany as sub-assemblies from Portugal. A sufficient percentage of manufacture must be in Germany in order for the finished product to be identified as "Made in Germany". I suppose it's possible that all manufacture must be in the Schengen area but that would be problematic for partnerships with, e.g., Japan and there is certainly that going on. Someone in the EU would have to chime in. It bears mentioning the Leica M-A (Typ127) is an all Germany camera. But I don't know just what that might mean.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-16-2019   #46
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 8,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by giganova View Post
1:34: "Made in Germany", and the workers look German to me, too:

Leica Lenses

Lol, that video is from 8 years ago, before Leica was making the SL or TL!
And it shows the M lenses.

The SL lens is made in Japan.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019   #47
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Santiago, Chile
Age: 46
Posts: 20,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
The SL lens is made in Japan.
Where’s the proof?
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019   #48
CharlesDAMorgan
Registered User
 
CharlesDAMorgan is online now
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: South East UK
Posts: 1,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by semi-ambivalent View Post
There are EU rules governing this sort of thing. At least part of my MP came to Germany as sub-assemblies from Portugal. A sufficient percentage of manufacture must be in Germany in order for the finished product to be identified as "Made in Germany". I suppose it's possible that all manufacture must be in the Schengen area but that would be problematic for partnerships with, e.g., Japan and there is certainly that going on. Someone in the EU would have to chime in. It bears mentioning the Leica M-A (Typ127) is an all Germany camera. But I don't know just what that might mean.

Made in Germany as a designation means (according to case law) the majority of the production must be German otherwise it is misleading. Components, sub-assemblies etc can come from other countries but count towards the non-german production above.

EU preferential rules of origin vary but approximately 60% of the value has to be local to the EU. Not Schengen - that is passport free internal travel that neither Ireland nor the UK are in despite being (one pro-tem) EU member states, but Switzerland, a non-member state, is.

Non-preferential rules of origin (where no trade deal exists) are the purview of the WTO which largely leaves it to the importing country to define.

It is all very detailed and my brain hurts just from the above.
__________________
De-gassing progress:

Leica M2, Nikon D700, Bronica RF645, Leica CL, Summicron 40mm, Rolleicord Va, Hasselblad 500 CM Zeiss Planar, Leica 50mm Summicron V3 - all gone.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019   #49
semi-ambivalent
Little to say
 
semi-ambivalent is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: DenCo, USA
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesDAMorgan View Post
Made in Germany as a designation means (according to case law) the majority of the production must be German otherwise it is misleading. ... It is all very detailed and my brain hurts just from the above.

Thank you for this, and for pointing out my misuse of "schengen". I'm rather surprised the rough break is just 60%. At that threshold my MP (an a la carte), should have included a bottle of Fonseca.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019   #50
santino
eXpect me
 
santino's Avatar
 
santino is offline
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Autriche
Posts: 1,069
I think it is enough to create the main value of the product = assembly. A german camera does not have to include parts that were made in Germany.
__________________
Vivent les télémétriques ! -
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019   #51
JeffS7444
Registered User
 
JeffS7444 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 189
It's not as simple as Leica wanting to take advantage of us: We want to believe that they deliver a certain "something" too, something which can't necessarily be quantified. This is the essence of luxury.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019   #52
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Santiago, Chile
Age: 46
Posts: 20,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffS7444 View Post
It's not as simple as Leica wanting to take advantage of us: We want to believe that they deliver a certain "something" too, something which can't necessarily be quantified. This is the essence of luxury.
and that certain something can only be done by Germans!
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019   #53
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 8,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffS7444 View Post
It's not as simple as Leica wanting to take advantage of us: We want to believe that they deliver a certain "something" too, something which can't necessarily be quantified. This is the essence of luxury.
That's the thing. We pay $5000 for an AF Leica lens vs $1000 for an AF Japanese lens because... it's made in Germany by lens elves, right? I mean, paying 5 times as much to find out it's made by the same doods slapping together Tamrons irks somewhat. Unless all you care about is the font and red sticker.

It's why I bought the Olympus branded EVF-2 over the Leica EVF-2 for my M240 (both made by Epson). Only difference was the name on the front, the rest is identical. Except I could have bought 3 of the Olympus for one of the Leica.
I think that Leica had to price it that high as their base demand it.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019   #54
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 8,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
[*]M lenses like the APO Summicron 50 are hand-built in Wetzlar. The L-mount lenses are more automated production in larger volumes to meet the demand.
This Nikon lens prodution video is pretty impressive. Shows an awful lot of hand built interaction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4BOLIa_3lw

Canon etc has similar videos out there. The message of being hand built seems to be trumpeted as a selling point by Leica to justify a high price point, while the other mfgs just use it as the way they make their lenses..

Interestingly, Nikon and Canon (according to the videos) make their own glass.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019   #55
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 8,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
Where’s the proof?
This lens is on the CL. My local Samys is thin of the ground on Leica mirrorless as for some reason people are interested in the other mfg's offerings:



Pretty sure the L mount lenses (CL, TL, SL) are all made in the same place. I'll take a look next time I'm at Leica Store LA. They have plenty of SL gear there.
What is interesting is that this shows (at least on this lens) that the build quality is worse than M lenses, just in the fact that it is engraved on an M lens, while here it is painted on.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019   #56
airfrogusmc
Registered User
 
airfrogusmc is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 5,742
If you own Leica M you don't have to buy Leica M lenses. I never shower with my cameras so most Leica M lenses and cameras are just fine for me. I have been caught in rain and I always have something to put my camera in with me. My favorite 35 is my Lux FLE. Love the 90 Cron APO. I also have a Jupiter 8 which is cool and I just picked up a Voigtlander 50 1.2 that seem really sweet on my first test frames. Don't like Leica M because you can't shower with them don't buy. I know I always get in out of the rain when it starts.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019   #57
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Santiago, Chile
Age: 46
Posts: 20,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
This lens is on the CL. My local Samys is thin of the ground on Leica mirrorless as for some reason people are interested in the other mfg's offerings:

These high end lenses COULD be made elsewhere, but has Leica made any AF lenses at all yet?

Quote:
Pretty sure the L mount lenses (CL, TL, SL) are all made in the same place. I'll take a look next time I'm at Leica Store LA. They have plenty of SL gear there.
Interesting... I won't be buying, but I find it it very interesting Leica's wording on how things are made. My Leica days are long over...
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019   #58
emraphoto
Registered User
 
emraphoto's Avatar
 
emraphoto is offline
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,664
Did i read that correctly? 8,000 dollars?!?!

Absurd
__________________
www.johndensky.ca
@eastofadelaide
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-17-2019   #59
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 8,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
These high end lenses COULD be made elsewhere, but has Leica made any AF lenses at all yet? .
You Sir, are correct!
I couldn't take it any longer (thank you OCD!) so I checked ebay cuz there they sell used lenses that do not use the official Leica merch pics.
And the 50 SL Sumilux is... MADE IN GERMANY! Not Japan like the cheaper CL lenses.

So this loops back around to my first observation - Does Leica take advantage of their M users? The top line SL lenses (including the new 50 Cron APO I'm sure) are made in Germany in The Leica Factory. So, made in the same place, by the same peeps, to the same standards and processes. The SL lenses also are more complicated because they have the AF mechanisms and all the elecrtonics that go into them.
And yet the new Apo 50 SL is about 50% cheaper than the equivalent M lens.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #60
David Hughes
David Hughes
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,541
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffS7444 View Post
It's not as simple as Leica wanting to take advantage of us: We want to believe that they deliver a certain "something" too, something which can't necessarily be quantified. This is the essence of luxury.

Exactly and part of that allure is being expensive. Would you buy a Leica lens if it was brand new and dirt cheap? Think what it would do to your (self) image...

I mean, like, do you want to end up, like, dating girls your age?


Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #61
CharlesDAMorgan
Registered User
 
CharlesDAMorgan is online now
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: South East UK
Posts: 1,122
Indeed, although I appear to have ended up with considerably older Leica dates than me. It's the story of my life.

Given Leica's long track record of not making much money or even losing it, adopting different pricing strategies for different goods that people are prepared to pay seems logical, even consensual to me.
__________________
De-gassing progress:

Leica M2, Nikon D700, Bronica RF645, Leica CL, Summicron 40mm, Rolleicord Va, Hasselblad 500 CM Zeiss Planar, Leica 50mm Summicron V3 - all gone.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #62
David Hughes
David Hughes
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,541
Here's a line of thought worth following; many years ago Leica wanted to up date things and got together with Minolta. That joint venture gave us the M5, the CL and a range of SLR's ending with the Minolta body being used by Leica in their R cameras; thinking of the R5's at this point.


But, and here's one of the big "what-ifs" of my thoughts, Minolta went on to make a superb range of AF zoom lenses for their new range of auto everything SLR's like the 7000 range. And then they had problems with the AF design and a law case against them and virtually vanished but lived on with another name up front.


If none of that had happened or ended differently we might just have had an AF Leica prime or zoom lens or two. As it was we didn't but then along came the Panasonic and Leica co-operation and we got a lot of nice, neat digital cameras. I've owned several; once I had (curiosity as usual) both versions of the same camera (and the Leica version cost a lot more).


So I wonder what the future holds; a full frame version of the old Digilux 2 would be nice.


Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #63
airfrogusmc
Registered User
 
airfrogusmc is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 5,742
Im SO GLAD Leica M lenses are all manual focus. I don't think that I am alone in this.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #64
JeffS7444
Registered User
 
JeffS7444 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 189
This seems like a good time for a musical interlude, and this old tune seems apropos:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeMFqkcPYcg
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #65
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Santiago, Chile
Age: 46
Posts: 20,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Does Leica take advantage of their M users?
Yes, but we all knew this already... (and thank you for the detective work!)
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #66
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 8,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by airfrogusmc View Post
Im SO GLAD Leica M lenses are all manual focus. I don't think that I am alone in this.
It's also why I realized I prefer zone focus P&S cameras than my AF ones. I set focus, they shoot the moment I push the button. No delay, no accidentally focusing on something else. And if it misses, it's my fault.
They (zone focus and Leica M) make you think, keep you sharp.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #67
JeffS7444
Registered User
 
JeffS7444 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 189
Nevertheless, I'd consider buying more new Leica products including the M10 or Ultravid binoculars if I thought I'd enjoy using them. With the assumption that even the "German" products are made of materials or sub-assemblies sourced from any number of non-German sources. Or in some cases, produced entirely by contractors. So it's best to do a bit of research before paying a hefty "luxury tax".
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #68
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Santiago, Chile
Age: 46
Posts: 20,059
It's funny, I’ve never bought a Leica because it was German. I bought it because it was a great rangefinder. I have certainly used Canadian Leica lenses on my Leica in the past.

Now I’m starting to see people complain about Fuji moving production from Japan to elsewhere. I just don’t care... as long as the cameras work well and give me what I want.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #69
steveyork
Registered User
 
steveyork is offline
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 698
Does Leica take advantage of their M users?


Only if you let them. With the fine offerings from Cosina and others (e.g., Zeiss ZM and Voigtlander), no one really "needs" to drop $8k (US) on a Leica lens. More objectionable 20 years ago when no other M mount lenses from other companies, because then our choice were new or old and what version, but all of them Leica.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #70
Keith
On leave from Gallifrey
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Keith is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,654
They sure did when they released the M8.
__________________
---------------------------
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #71
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 8,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveyork View Post
More objectionable 20 years ago when no other M mount lenses from other companies, because then our choice were new or old and what version, but all of them Leica.
I guess you forgot adapting LTM lenses? Like Winogrand did.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #72
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 8,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post

Now I’m starting to see people complain about Fuji moving production from Japan to elsewhere. I just don’t care... as long as the cameras work well and give me what I want.
My favourite Hasselblads are those made by Fuji.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #73
semi-ambivalent
Little to say
 
semi-ambivalent is offline
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: DenCo, USA
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by emraphoto View Post
Did i read that correctly? 8,000 dollars?!?!

Absurd
:P

Yup, that German labor is paid pretty well. I'm not so stupid as to say none of that 8k pays for the word "Leica"; that's branding you know, that thing that defined the 1980s economic landscape and gave us corporate architecture. Your politicians want their cut of Leica's allure, for your benefit of course. There's an airport restaurant in San Jose where a cheeseburger and a soda will cost you twenty bucks. Your new car will lose half its value in five years. No matter what it is.

So buy used, or don't by at all, but if you get out more you'll see how worthless your currency has become, for anything. That's absurd, prophetic too. That lens could serve someone for fifty years and bring them great satisfaction. The hamburger? Not so long.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #74
vladimir
vladimir
 
vladimir is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sydney
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Leica takes advantage more on SL. I'm terribly sorry, but this camera makes no sense if you are not total Leica sucker. My apologies.
I am more then happy with my SL than I ever was with that creepy M rangefinder camera.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #75
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,600
Yep, I know some people who just can't focus RF. To them even M is useless.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #76
raid
Dad Photographer
 
raid's Avatar
 
raid is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 31,047
The SL would have been a very elegant camera if it were 25% smaller in size. Its top notch EVF can make you forget about the optical RF. This is all theoretical as I am still with the M8 and M9!
__________________
- Raid

________________


http://raid.smugmug.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #77
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 8,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
The SL .. Its top notch EVF can make you forget about the optical RF. ..
How so? I've used it, and the EVF in my Z7 (which to me seems just as good). The EVFs are excellent for careful, considered focus where you can get it perfect given a little time. The RF in a Leica M allows you to nail focus waaay quicker, and there is no jello effect in lower lighting or potential for headaches (at least for me!)

I much prefer the RF but the EVF is great for knowing exactly what is being framed, and also exposure. Hmmm, they really don't compete against each other!
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-18-2019   #78
farlymac
PF McFarland
 
farlymac's Avatar
 
farlymac is offline
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 6,291
If you own a Leica M camera, you do have choices in other brand lenses, though they are limited. So you're not entirely beholden to Wetzlar when it comes to gear. And for someone like me who no longer does commercial work in photography, it's not a critical point of contention as to what brand lenses I use. Most of them will produce very good to excellent results.

But you don't build something like Wetzlar Park by charging bargain prices for your product.

PF
__________________
Waiting for the light
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-19-2019   #79
David Hughes
David Hughes
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,541
OTOH, building cameras and lenses that last for decades with only a minimal amount of attention etc is not exactly taking advantage of their customers.

I've had my CL for decades and still use it, other cameras (SLR's) have been and gone...

Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-19-2019   #80
airfrogusmc
Registered User
 
airfrogusmc is offline
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 5,742
I have said this before; Leica Ms have always been expensive. When I bought my Canon F-1s (I still have 3 of them and they still work) IIRC Leica M at the time cost twice as much as the top of the line Canons and Nikons. Leica M is now about the same price, Maybe a little more. So does that make Leica M now a bargain compared to the Nicanons?
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 23:00.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.