Sony A9 is here
Old 04-20-2017   #1
Larry Cloetta
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Sony A9 is here

https://alphauniverse.com/stories/so...maging-market/

FWIW.
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Old 04-20-2017   #2
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I'll wait for the A9R. I already have two FF digi cams at 24mp. I now am 'scanning' film w/ them and so would want more rez.
New EVF sounds sweet.
I wonder why people think the A9 is a separate line from the A7? I see the A9 replacing the A7ii, and the A9R replacing the A7Rii.

The pricing.. it shows that the future is in super high end pricey cameras, as the low end has been ceded to smartphones. Sony's A6500 is much more expensive than the 6300, and this A9 is over double the price of the A7.
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Old 04-20-2017   #3
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Old 04-20-2017   #4
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Here you go!

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Old 04-20-2017   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
...
The pricing.. it shows that the future is in super high end pricey cameras, as the low end has been ceded to smartphones. Sony's A6500 is much more expensive than the 6300, and this A9 is over double the price of the A7.
It should work for Sony. It is like Leica, but in the broader range of electronics manufacturing. I was always willing to pay more for Sony TV sets and video cameras.
Well, years ago Samsung kicked Sony out on TV market and people are using iPhone instead of video camera. So, Sony needs to be like Leica.
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Old 04-20-2017   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
I'll wait for the A9R. I already have two FF digi cams at 24mp. I now am 'scanning' film w/ them and so would want more rez.
New EVF sounds sweet.
I wonder why people think the A9 is a separate line from the A7? I see the A9 replacing the A7ii, and the A9R replacing the A7Rii.

The pricing.. it shows that the future is in super high end pricey cameras, as the low end has been ceded to smartphones. Sony's A6500 is much more expensive than the 6300, and this A9 is over double the price of the A7.

The "replacement" talk makes no sense.

Obviously the A9 is the flagship model that goes head-to-head with the Canikon 1DX and D5. That's why Sony in Minolta's tradition calls it a 9 instead of an "A7 III", and priced it to match the designation.

The 24MP stacked sensor is giving ample resolution compared to the 1DX and D5. Not like it's the same thing that came from the A7 line...

Amateurs should and do have choice of getting $2,000 cameras that fulfills 99% of their needs instead of being forced to sell a kidney for a $4,500 speed monster, and Sony knows that. It doesn't look like their management team had suddenly lost their mind.
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Old 04-20-2017   #7
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I just hope camera companies can continue to make really great cameras in the $1500-2000 range. My days of spending $3000-$7000 are over... unless Leica makes a 50mm Q -
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Old 04-20-2017   #8
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^^^ Amen to that !
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Old 04-20-2017   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
+ 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archlich View Post
The "replacement" talk makes no sense.

Obviously the A9 is the flagship model ......
I'm hoping that they keep the A7 series in production as they've squeezed (read fully recovered) the development costs and should be able to sell new copies to folks like me who are cost sensitive (read cheap old farts).

The A9 does look very impressive.

B2 (;->
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Old 04-20-2017   #10
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If I have understood correctly, the new electronic shutter can now be used under all circumstances without producing distortion in pictures or VF blackouts.

I think it's a major improvement in the world of mirrorless cameras, and I hope the technology can make its way to cheaper cameras.
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Old 04-20-2017   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
I'll wait for the A9R. I already have two FF digi cams at 24mp. I now am 'scanning' film w/ them and so would want more rez.
New EVF sounds sweet.
I wonder why people think the A9 is a separate line from the A7? I see the A9 replacing the A7ii, and the A9R replacing the A7Rii.

The pricing.. it shows that the future is in super high end pricey cameras, as the low end has been ceded to smartphones. Sony's A6500 is much more expensive than the 6300, and this A9 is over double the price of the A7.

The predicted price of $4500.00 did kind of make me catch my breath a little. Surely ... Nikon now needs to start rethinking all the money they sink into their stonking great pro DSLRs and change direction before it's too late ... or has that ship already left?

edit ... and I've realised that in Oz it will cost about what I paid for my M240 three or so years ago!
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Old 04-20-2017   #12
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Yeah, that $4500 is more than I paid for my demo/new M240 (M100 edition)

All these cameras are getting really expensive - seen the prices of the new flagship Olympus and Fuji models? Much more than the preceding ones - because the mfgs cannot make money with 'cheap' cameras anymore. Smartphones have killed that.

I think the A9R will be the same price as the A9. It will be a trade off of a higher rez sensor for less speed. I'll take that trade.

And once the A9/A9R models come out, what is the incentive for Sony to improve the A7 series? Cuz if it gets the sweet new EVF that is in the 9 (which is the main thing for me), for most peeps it would be why get the 9? Sony still needs to move a lot of 9s to make $$.
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Old 04-20-2017   #13
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Is this finally a full-frame Sony that works with M glass out of the box? If yes, I think I will get the A9R despite the cost.

The price point is so high that adding conversion and shipping costs + taxes to EU takes this into the MF price range. Voiding warranty does not sound good in that context.
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Old 04-29-2017   #14
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As Thom Hogan some days ago mentioned
http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/...r-upscale.html
this new Alpha 9 is record breaking......but just in adding footnotes to the announcement text.
And that is characteristic for this camera. If you look in closer detail, the features and specs don't look so impressive anymore: More limitations than you think if you read only the marketing text.

But this camera clearly shows one of the main problems with todays digital higher-end cameras:
They are overloaded with expensive features and superfluous "bells and whistles" 99% of the photographers don't need. But they have to pay for it: With each generation the prices are getting higher.
4500 bucks? I buy a car with that money.

20 fps? Maybe "tech sheet masturbaters" like that. But not sports or wildlife photographers (I've been there, done that).
The 8 fps of the Nikon F5 have been sufficient for 99% of what you need in sports or wildlife photography. A good sports/wildlife photographer knows his subject and the right moments to shoot. And then you get the shot with 6-8 fps.
With current CaNikon DSLRs in the 10-14 fps range you really can do 100% of very fast action in sports/wildlife. No need for more.
If you really think to need more, it is probably better instead of making photographs making a video/movie.

More and more photographers are getting out of this extremely expensive "upgrading rat race" the manufacturers and the digital media (dpreview, petapixel, fstoppers, imaging-resource, lensvid....) are creating, making pressure on photographers.

More and more are realizing the nonsense of the megapixel-race: 99% of the photographers are looking at their pictures on 2k/4k monitors, so the high megapixel count is useless as the monitor can only display 2Mp / 8Mp.
And if they make prints, they almost always make 16x20" at max, for which 20 Mp are completely sufficient. Not more needed.
Same is valid for ridiculously high frame rates above 14 fps.

Photography is not about megapixels or fps or spec sheet records. It is about fun, memories and emotions.
But most camera manufacturers are ignorant and captured in their thinking of technological overload.
And because of that, the sales of digital cameras are declining.
And the sales of instant film cameras are increasing. The market for Instax cameras is now even more than double the size of the whole DSLM market.
But Sony, Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, Panasonic are ignoring the facts and this huge market. Instead they burn money in the over-competitive, low-margin, small DSLM market.
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Old 04-29-2017   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
As Thom Hogan some days ago mentioned
http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/...r-upscale.html
this new Alpha 9 is record breaking......but just in adding footnotes to the announcement text.
And that is characteristic for this camera. If you look in closer detail, the features and specs don't look so impressive anymore: More limitations than you think if you read only the marketing text.

But this camera clearly shows one of the main problems with todays digital higher-end cameras:
They are overloaded with expensive features and superfluous "bells and whistles" 99% of the photographers don't need. But they have to pay for it: With each generation the prices are getting higher.
4500 bucks? I buy a car with that money.

20 fps? Maybe "tech sheet masturbaters" like that. But not sports or wildlife photographers (I've been there, done that).
The 8 fps of the Nikon F5 have been sufficient for 99% of what you need in sports or wildlife photography. A good sports/wildlife photographer knows his subject and the right moments to shoot. And then you get the shot with 6-8 fps.
With current CaNikon DSLRs in the 10-14 fps range you really can do 100% of very fast action in sports/wildlife. No need for more.
If you really think to need more, it is probably better instead of making photographs making a video/movie.

More and more photographers are getting out of this extremely expensive "upgrading rat race" the manufacturers and the digital media (dpreview, petapixel, fstoppers, imaging-resource, lensvid....) are creating, making pressure on photographers.

More and more are realizing the nonsense of the megapixel-race: 99% of the photographers are looking at their pictures on 2k/4k monitors, so the high megapixel count is useless as the monitor can only display 2Mp / 8Mp.
And if they make prints, they almost always make 16x20" at max, for which 20 Mp are completely sufficient. Not more needed.
Same is valid for ridiculously high frame rates above 14 fps.

Photography is not about megapixels or fps or spec sheet records. It is about fun, memories and emotions.
But most camera manufacturers are ignorant and captured in their thinking of technological overload.
And because of that, the sales of digital cameras are declining.
And the sales of instant film cameras are increasing. The market for Instax cameras is now even more than double the size of the whole DSLM market.
But Sony, Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, Panasonic are ignoring the facts and this huge market. Instead they burn money in the over-competitive, low-margin, small DSLM market.

The comment about most people needing less than what these speed monsters offer but still being obliged to cough up for all this stuff is so true and a manufacturer like Sony will know very well that this will sell their cameras. There are an awful lot of 250 kph+ cars out there picking up kids after school and doing trips to local shopping centres when they aren't idling in traffic.

Personally, it all stopped making sense to me some time ago!
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Old 04-29-2017   #16
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The only two A9 features which are of any interest to me are the higher resolution viewfinder and the second SD card slot, which hardly warrant the expense of buying the new body. Maybe the A7RIII will have them.
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Old 04-29-2017   #17
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Quote:
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Photography is not about megapixels or fps or spec sheet records. It is about fun, memories and emotions.
But most camera manufacturers are ignorant and captured in their thinking of technological overload.
Skiff, I loved your whole writeup, though I want to comment on this section.

In the '90s the camera world turned to APS as the "new" thing - the recording media was the same tech as 35mm, but the packaging, handling and presentation was different. So was the image quality - it was lower.

That sector of the market was eaten first by digital - because digital packaging, handling and image presentation was better for the modern environment, and 1MP was more than anyone needed in the days of dialup internet.

The A9 clearly has a lot of professional users in sight. Cost is not unreasonable for that league because the camera costs the same as your high end Nikon. This is Sony proving its the new professional choice.

But in general, I would agree that we have reached the limits. I have a pair of 6MP APSC digitals and a 20MP base-model Sony APSC model, and while I would love FF digital as an option (one day will go for the A7 I suspect) I know that the 6MP APS cameras (apx 14MP FF equivalent for pixel pitch) do fine with resolution of all my lenses, while the 20MP (about 45MP FF pixel pitch) only likes some of the lenses. Going above this level at FF means using the highest quality lenses as well. I don't have a need for FPS.

The A9 reads to me like the A7 and A7s lines coming together. This is a high end digital movie chip in a camera for stills. I suspect the 20fps still capacity is a side benefit of 4K (and higher?) high frame rate capacity on the chip.
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Old 04-29-2017   #18
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Is this finally a full-frame Sony that works with M glass out of the box?
Not likely.

But I like:
battery
EVF and LCD sharper
More versatile and very fast silent shutter.
Fast card.
Menus and joystick

It will have the same thick filter stack as the others, albeit with small differences.

But I think the A7rii is a better mod camera than the earlier models, and this may also be the case with the A9. But we won't see many modding it for a while. On the other hand the r2 is down to 2200 NEW (int) and is getting modded alot now.

As usual there is considerable Sony hate. Leaving out the SLOG alone probably validates this

But this camera offers features no other camera can equal, not just in terms of size, but outright performance. Sure this lens options are pricey and much more slim. Etc. That is going to change--not that I care as M shooter.

Sony still in in the "franken-camera" mode, but I give them serious credit for innovation.
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Old 04-29-2017   #19
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Finally, the "Pro" Sony mirroless that aims to compete with dSLRs in pretty much anything, even AF speed and accuracy.

This new camera, as usual, first will be more critizised for what it is not than appreciated for what it is, which looks impressive, and it will take a while for the camera to assert itself.

It will be interesting to see if it succeeds in attracting professional photographers.
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Old 04-30-2017   #20
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This, I think, is Sony's trump of the Leica SL.
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Old 04-30-2017   #21
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I wonder will I ever see the day of sub $500 full frame digital mirror-less that I can use with all the old manual lenses I have *accidentally* have right now...
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Old 04-30-2017   #22
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I wonder will I ever see the day of sub $500 full frame digital mirror-less that I can use with all the old manual lenses I have *accidentally* have right now...
No, definitely not.
Digital sensors are expensive, and the bigger the sensor area, the more expensive they are. And it is not a linear relationsship, it is an e-function: The costs are increasing in an over-proportional way with bigger sensors.

And there is another severe problem: Since 2012 sales of digital ILC cameras are significantly decreasing, therefore there are no positive economies of scale anymore, but instead negative economies of scale with rising production costs.
That is why lately new models were introduced mostly at higher prices compared to their forerunners.

We will probably not see any (good) FF camera for under 1,000 bucks.
Don't forget: We have FF digital cameras since about 2002, and we've never seen a cheap one.

Those who want very cheap. but excellent FF cameras should currently look at the film camera market:
Outstanding professional 35mm cameras like Nikon F4, F5, F100, Canon EOS 3, EOS 1N, EOS 1V, EOS 30/33V, Minolta Dynax 7 and 9 etc. are all available for (much) less than 500$.
Real bargains!!

Cheers, Jan
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Old 04-30-2017   #23
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Don't forget: We have FF digital cameras since about 2002, and we've never seen a cheap one.
So true... looks like the days of the good old soviet that practically churn out "copy" of their western counter part for cheap is also gone (i know I enjoy the Zorky and Kiev)
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Old 09-29-2017   #24
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FWIW, as a Sony A7RII user who upgraded from a series of digitals to Sony A7 and then the A7RII, I sympathized with the sense of getting out of the digital rat race to the extent that I exited digital for film. For me, this is an avocation not a living, and meant to be fun. I kept my A7RII for scanning film negatives (and rare other uses) and sold off the rest to pick up 35mm Leica and 120 Bronica's that I'm using for 95% plus of my images. And I am thrilled to have a lesser form of image capture... 'cause no matter what camera you have now or buy later, if it is not now a lesser capture device, it will be. Better to live with it, embrace it and become a better photographer rather than complain and/or feel outgunned. Let it be a choice and focus on what you can control rather than what the other guy is doing. Film's one chance to get it right within a range of simple controls is forcing me to learn more about the craft and that's a good thing, and will pay dividends no matter what comes next.

Sony's prices are rising and that's a good thing if you consider that it supports the R&D of expressive photographers. Sony is still very low in price relative to Leica. And all these are low in price relative to the real dollar costs (adjusted for inflation) of early 1970 prices for Hasselblads and other MF camera packages. If the market for high end cameras shrinks because the bottom and middle market subsidies are lost, spreading the cost out over fewer units will force higher prices. As this happens, the appeal of custom, one-of-a-kind cameras to serve the serious "art" photographer in digital and film will become more and more cost competitive and perhaps the only option. There's an option now for a multiple format film system camera coming to market that can do everything from 35mm to LF.... using Mamiya, Linhof and other lenses. Pretty cool stuff. I'll bet digital will see the same thing as younger folks begin to recycle some of the digital sensors, too.
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