Leica M10 Monochrom 41 MP
Old 10-31-2019   #1
Larry Cloetta
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Leica M10 Monochrom 41 MP

https://leicarumors.com/2019/10/30/c...p-sensor.aspx/

Nobodyís weighed in on this yet, tsk, tsk.
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Old 10-31-2019   #2
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One thing bugs me...
It seems, more expensive camera gets, less photography is seeing from it.
Plenty of exercises in exposure, testing of expensive and cheap lenses, but not so much of photography as it is present from less expensive cameras owners.

Garry Winogrand didn't even have new Leicas and used cheaper Canon lenses for many years.

But maybe it is not Leica fault. Maybe they know what they can't increase sales by making M cameras cheaper. Maybe here is only few left who are capable of using cameras without AF and AE (Leica M series AE sucks just as Leica TTL flash).
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Old 10-31-2019   #3
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It was so much fun to use film camera with low ISO slide film and a spotmeter! The challenge to correctly expose the film was exciting.
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Old 10-31-2019   #4
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Where are you not seeing good photos? On a gear oriented amateur photo forum? And this is somebody’s fault?
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Old 10-31-2019   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
https://leicarumors.com/2019/10/30/c...p-sensor.aspx/

Nobodyís weighed in on this yet, tsk, tsk.
This is the Grail when my M8.2 and M9 are scrap metal. I have been waiting for this one!
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Old 10-31-2019   #6
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This is the Grail when my M8.2 and M9 are scrap metal. I have been waiting for this one!
I thought you just bought a Linhof Master Technika 4x5, as per the "what have you just bought" thread. That just might be better than an M10 Monochrom anyway
In the meantime, congrats on the Linhof, while waiting for the M10.
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Old 10-31-2019   #7
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https://leicarumors.com/2019/10/30/c...p-sensor.aspx/

Nobodyís weighed in on this yet, tsk, tsk.

I'm still digesting the news that the new $8000 Nikon 58mm .95 Z lens is sold out and Nikon has stopped taking pre-orders.
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Old 10-31-2019   #8
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I'm still digesting the news that the new $8000 Nikon 58mm .95 Z lens is sold out and Nikon has stopped taking pre-orders.

And we need this lens because .... ?
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Old 10-31-2019   #9
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My Pentax-M 50/1.4 in M mount cost me $250 or less. This is less than $8000.
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Old 10-31-2019   #10
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Maybe somebody needs a 41MP Leica. But The Leica M wants to be handheld. I don't think you can get the full sharpness of even a 12MP camera without a tripod, let alone 18, 24, or 41MP.
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Old 10-31-2019   #11
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Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
One thing bugs me...
It seems, more expensive camera gets, less photography is seeing from it.
Plenty of exercises in exposure, testing of expensive and cheap lenses, but not so much of photography as it is present from less expensive cameras owners.
The problem is that photography is expensive. I estimate that I have spent circa 3k euros on repairs, film and chemicals in the last 12 months for a single Leica camera.

If you shoot a lot of film, then a digital body could pay for itself - even before discounting time saved on scanning etc.
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Old 10-31-2019   #12
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camera makers seem to move forward from 24mp, which was the norm for several years.
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Old 11-01-2019   #13
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Maybe somebody needs a 41MP Leica. But The Leica M wants to be handheld. I don't think you can get the full sharpness of even a 12MP camera without a tripod, let alone 18, 24, or 41MP.
By this logic Tri-X requires a tripod. I suspect past 1/250th of a second a tripod becomes irrelevant for most images one might make with an M camera.
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Old 11-01-2019   #14
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A 41Mp Monochrom will be ideal for cat photography, by a whisker
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Old 11-01-2019   #15
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There must be something wrong with me...
16mp is just fine for me ... 24 may be a luxury i might consider
Beyond that, megapixels get wasted on Me, no need , no care
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Old 11-01-2019   #16
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My top two digital Leica cameras sport 12 and 16MP.
This is sufficient for my needs.
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Old 11-01-2019   #17
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Not much requirement if you don`t crop.
I use a couple of high MP cams , one (A7R2 ) with in body cropping .
Useful if you need a longer reach and saves hauling along another lens ( or two ).
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Old 11-01-2019   #18
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My top two digital Leica cameras sport 12 and 16MP.
This is sufficient for my needs.
Raid,

Sometimes it matters more the size of the pixel rather than how many.

I can see landscape guys who print mucho big liking the added MP.

I like the Q2 for the weatherproofing, and the SL2 for the reported IBIS. To me these are bigger deals than the pixel count.

To me the M10M would be a very useful camera for those of us that are trying to emulate medium and large format photography. Not for everyone.

Also with my SL I use the electronic shutter and at times my shutter speeds are 1/20,000 of a second. As good as a tripod IMHO.

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Old 11-01-2019   #19
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By this logic Tri-X requires a tripod. I suspect past 1/250th of a second a tripod becomes irrelevant for most images one might make with an M camera.
Tri-X doesn't have nearly the resolution of 41MP; probably not even of 24MP. My point is that to get the increased resolution of a 41MP camera together with the best lenses, calls for great care and the best technique. I don't think there are very many films that can match the performance of the M10, let alone this M10 Monochrom.
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Old 11-01-2019   #20
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When the original Monochrom was created, the roots were to be taken from Bresson, as a sort of tribute. I had that camera for over three years (four different copies) and it was anything but a tribute to Henri. Both the MM and M246 were flawed sensors, however I have preferred the original sensor's output. The M9/MM camera platform was and is a complete dog. And does everyone remember the promotion shots of the M246? Do you know all of the images have a dead pixel line going through all the images? I think it's funny in two ways: Leica promoting its true self and on the flip side how dead pixels won't affect a good picture or bad picture one bit.

I have high hopes for this next Monochrom but they better address making the camera a "shooter." The M10 is so slow!! Start up time is a joke, whether turning on or from sleep. And why does the exposure compensation show in the viewfinder before the actual shutter speed? The M240 was like this... so annoying! The M9/MM had a little dot in the finder to show you had some type of compensation.

41MP? Why? All the inherent flaws of using and shooting with a rangefinder will be exaggerated. The prints you could make with the original 18MP were absolutely insane. I don't think Leica has what it takes to support a 41MP camera, not at least to fit in a M sized camera. The camera needs to be quick, agile, and ready to go on a moments notice. It's not what the M10 offered. Turn on and use another camera by Nikon/Canon and it's amazing how responsive they are in comparison.

I have a feeling the direction of the monochrom, to be a tribute to photographers who actually drove their cameras to create memorable images, has shifted. Instead they are creating a camera for 99% who will actually buy it....

I've been using Leica digital cameras for 13 years, ranging from the D-Lux 3, M8, M9, MM, M240, M10 and I've had a quite the love/hate relationship. One thing I've sadly learned is how they are liabilities.

When they get it right I'll return to a digital Leica, until then I've been liberated by film.
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Old 11-01-2019   #21
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Tri-X doesn't have nearly the resolution of 41MP; probably not even of 24MP. My point is that to get the increased resolution of a 41MP camera together with the best lenses, calls for great care and the best technique. I don't think there are very many films that can match the performance of the M10, let alone this M10 Monochrom.
Exactly!! It calls for a different technique that is not inherent to Leica shooting. It's as if everyone is trying to magnify out of a bad image with higher megapixels.

Film has been out resolved years ago by the digital dinosaurs of the past.
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Old 11-01-2019   #22
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Counterpoint: I shoot my A7rII without regard to the fact that it’s 42 MP. Nobody has been hurt in that process. If the next Monochrom is decent, it will be my first Leica digital. I don’t need or want more than 24 MP in it, but as long as it’s got good high ISO, and the shape and shutter of the M10P, I think I will be happy.
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Old 11-01-2019   #23
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I dont want all those 41MP per shot..clogging up my computer...
Would rather have a super speed 12MP or 24MP cam..
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Old 11-01-2019   #24
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Counterpoint: I shoot my A7rII without regard to the fact that itís 42 MP. Nobody has been hurt in that process. If the next Monochrom is decent, it will be my first Leica digital. I donít need or want more than 24 MP in it, but as long as itís got good high ISO, and the shape and shutter of the M10P, I think I will be happy.
I will be happy... said the person who never owned a digital Leica. Ha ha.

Tim, we all want a good Monochrom. I want one too. But as I said, these cameras are liabilities. How many A7rII's can you buy for a new Monochrom? Five? Six? I loved my Sony A7s, it just worked and worked.
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Old 11-01-2019   #25
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A 42mp file isn’t that much bigger than a 24mp file. It takes a little more storage, a tiny bit more processing power, but not the amount people tend to think. Also, at 300 dpi, the print size for 24mp vs. 42mp is about 13” x 20” vs. 17” x 26”. Some people will say that we don’t look at images up close in a gallery or a museum, that you stand back and look. However, it really depends on the photo and what type of detail it has. For me, nothing wrong with a lot of detail and being able to print large if needed.
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Old 11-01-2019   #26
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..

When they get it right I'll return to a digital Leica, until then I've been liberated by film.
I just use my Nikon Z7 to scan my film. In such use the high mp is great as it gives me scans that are 7K wide on the long side. I print for customers.
But for photography? I like film much more for many reasons including that I just care about the composition and scene, not worry about if my IBIS is working, or will it look perfectly sharp pixel peeping, or how is my dynamic range, or or or..
And.. my customers want film images. They want that perfect imperfection. If they want digital they just whip out their iphone and have at it.
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Old 11-01-2019   #27
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I will be happy... said the person who never owned a digital Leica. Ha ha.

Tim, we all want a good Monochrom. I want one too. But as I said, these cameras are liabilities. How many A7rII's can you buy for a new Monochrom? Five? Six? I loved my Sony A7s, it just worked and worked.
Point taken. It will have been reliable otherwise I will be very unhappy . I can’t say that I’ve heard of a ton of problems with the later digital Ms but I probably haven’t been paying attention.

My Sony is okay. I can’t say I really enjoy it as much as a rangefinder.
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Old 11-01-2019   #28
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I just use my Nikon Z7 to scan my film. In such use the high mp is great as it gives me scans that are 7K wide on the long side. I print for customers.
But for photography? I like film much more for many reasons including that I just care about the composition and scene, not worry about if my IBIS is working, or will it look perfectly sharp pixel peeping, or how is my dynamic range, or or or..
And.. my customers want film images. They want that perfect imperfection. If they want digital they just whip out their iphone and have at it.
Yes, I can definitely see that purpose of having extra mp. I'd use one for sure but I'm content with a Coolscan 9000 ED. Not the same as wet printing with the Focomat IIc though!
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Old 11-01-2019   #29
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But as I said, these cameras are liabilities. How many A7rII's can you buy for a new Monochrom? Five? Six? I loved my Sony A7s, it just worked and worked.
Have to say my A7R2 and the A7S before it never missed a beat .
Disappointing to hear that the digital M cameras are still not fully up to speed in some areas.
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Old 11-01-2019   #30
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Point taken. It will have been reliable otherwise I will be very unhappy . I canít say that Iíve heard of a ton of problems with the later digital Ms but I probably havenít been paying attention.

My Sony is okay. I canít say I really enjoy it as much as a rangefinder.
I had a M240 that was fine. My M10 had dead pixels across the entire frame that needed remapped. Overall, my favorite M digital.

They just feel "buggy." The responsiveness just isn't quite there yet.

Yeah, I feel you on the Sony. I sold mine, just wasn't the same as a rangefinder. They don't play well with most wides. I see the 28 Lux does well but... whatever. I had that lens for a year and went back to the 28 Cron. Couldn't be happier.

Fingers crossed for the next Mono!
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Old 11-01-2019   #31
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I was super tempted by the 28 Summilux but I resisted.

The Loxia lenses for Sony are a bit goofy ergonomically but very nice. No 28mm, but 25 is close enough.
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Old 11-01-2019   #32
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I was super tempted by the 28 Summilux but I resisted.

The Loxia lenses for Sony are a bit goofy ergonomically but very nice. No 28mm, but 25 is close enough.
If you plan on staying the A7 or even Leica SL route, the 28 Lux makes more sense. It doesn't balance well on the M (viewfinder blockage is awful and is front heavy). While probably the best 1.4 lens they offer in terms of optical measures, the additional baggage is too taxing, not to mention annoying. Also, I found the Lux rendering too busy and disturbing, even on film.
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Old 11-01-2019   #33
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And we need this lens because .... ?
We "need" this lens like we need any other piece of modern equipment. That is to say, we don't.

I'm so confused by how much people rally against this nikon lens but will buy the new m10-p after just getting an m10. Wild to me how people will say one piece of gear is too expensive while gobbling up anything another company puts out.
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Old 11-01-2019   #34
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Tri-X doesn't have nearly the resolution of 41MP; probably not even of 24MP. My point is that to get the increased resolution of a 41MP camera together with the best lenses, calls for great care and the best technique. I don't think there are very many films that can match the performance of the M10, let alone this M10 Monochrom.
I'll disagree that a tripod makes any visible difference when shooting any Leica M at speeds over 1/250th. Unless one has the shakes - but even then I'd not be entirely sure. A very good friend of mine has a significant tremor, and his images are quite sharp even when pixel peeping. When we were out shooting two weeks ago I was thinking that He'd not get a single frame judging by how much the camera was moving, but not a problem. He keeps his shutter speed up and he's fine. Might a tripod make a difference? Of course it could under some conditions.But whatever one might shoot with a film Leica and Tri-X will be surpassed by the M10M no matter what technique one uses. And getting the "most" out of every exposure is something I suspect "most" of us are completely incapable of whether we are shooting FOMA Retropan, ADOX CMSIII or a DLUX2. And despite forty plus years of very careful attention to process and plenty of time spent honing such process I include myself in that most.

Getting the very best out of a system is rarely worth the effort, as one will never notice the difference. Choosing a camera for ergonomics, choice of lenses and the capacity to deliver prints at the largest size you would want to print with a minimum of fussing is much more important than worrying that one isn't getting everything the camera is capable of.
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Old 11-01-2019   #35
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This is what a film M-Leica does in 2019 with a 1959 50mm f/1.4 lens at full aperture.

Erik.

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Old 11-01-2019   #36
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I'm still digesting the news that the new $8000 Nikon 58mm .95 Z lens is sold out and Nikon has stopped taking pre-orders.
Yeah, that one kinda blew me away. Really don't grasp the concept of that lens. The beauty of the Z series cameras is their tiny form factor and light weight. Why would someone want to attach a bazooka to the front of one?

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Old 11-01-2019   #37
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Yeah, that one kinda blew me away. Really don't grasp the concept of that lens. The beauty of the Z series cameras is their tiny form factor and light weight. Why would someone want to attach a bazooka to the front of one?

Best,
-Tim
Well.........the beauty of the Z cameras might be different things to different people. Nikon thinks that the beauty of the Z system is the new mount and the lens design benefits that brings. Individual users might like a small form factor, though the Sonys are smaller, but to Nikon itís mainly the mount and what they can do with it.
The .095 lens is a showcase of what they can do with it, as the MTF charts show. Pretty incredible, seems like.
For many people the allure of the Z system is the benefit conferred by the mount on new Nikkor lens designs, plus the quality of the sensor, plus the ability (shared with every mirrorless camera) to use adapted lenses, with the body size being neither here nor there.

Not that Iím getting this $8k lens as Iíd rather spend the money on the Nikkor 200mm F2 to stick on the Z7. Another lovely bazooka without any legitimate competition from any other manufacturer.
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Old 11-01-2019   #38
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If you plan on staying the A7 or even Leica SL route, the 28 Lux makes more sense. It doesn't balance well on the M (viewfinder blockage is awful and is front heavy). While probably the best 1.4 lens they offer in terms of optical measures, the additional baggage is too taxing, not to mention annoying. Also, I found the Lux rendering too busy and disturbing, even on film.
Using it on the A7 was part of the temptation. I do agree with you, too many of the pictures Iíve seen from it look a bit busy.
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Old 11-01-2019   #39
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And we need this lens because .... ?
It is freakin awesome.
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Old 11-01-2019   #40
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It is freakin awesome.

Well ... you just ran your colours up the mast as they say!
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