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The "people will forget about you" thing
Old 11-16-2007   #1
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The "people will forget about you" thing

In many threads here and elsewhere, we discuss shyness and privacy issues in street photography. As an advice, it often comes up in some form, that "you should just do it openly and naturally [i.e. photographing people on the streets] and then people will soon get used to your presence/activity and forget about you".
I always wondered if this is just an overrepeated myth with a major flaw.
People on the street come and go, they have stuff to do elsewhere that's why they are on the street. To get from A to B. People on the street in most cases will not walk around for 20 minutes and they won't get used to you, because they come and go. New people appear in every second, new people that are not used to seeing you "doing your job", and pass by within a few minutes at most. And again new people, and again and again.

This "they get used to you" argument can only be valid in a small community and when you shoot at the same position very often, and e.g. day after day the same people see you taking shots. THEN, they can get used to you. But not in Paris, not in NY, not even in this small town of mine Groningen.
Would you agree?
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Old 11-16-2007   #2
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You 're right.

They wont get used to you.

But you will get used to them. When that happens, you shoot much more confidently and that invites less and less curious looks. Confidence gives you the edge - without it, the people have it.
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Old 11-16-2007   #3
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alkis - i agree. but that's a different topic.

Just look at threads on this subject of shyness in street photography; how to shoot strangers; etcetera. It always comes up as advice, that you should "blend in", "just do your job" and "they will get used to you quickly". And it's not about people you often see. it's about people you see only for a few shuttertimes.
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Old 11-16-2007   #4
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So my question would be, i guess,: Why people keep on repeating this thing, while it's just not true in most cases?
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Old 11-16-2007   #5
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Maybe the advice should say: If you go about doing your street photography with confidence, like you are supposed to be there and it's your job, people will ACCEPT you doing what you do, as they walk by.
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Old 11-16-2007   #6
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I'm not sure that it has so much to do with people getting used to you as it does with them noticing you less when you look as though you belong. An awkward and unconfident photographer who is trying to "steal" photographs of strangers on the street stands out like a sore thumb. I think that Alkis is right. A confident photographer who just seems to be doing his or her thing is less noticed because he or she seems to belong.
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Old 11-16-2007   #7
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ok, Frank beat me with that one.
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Old 11-16-2007   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankS
Maybe the advice should say: If you go about doing your street photography with confidence, like you are supposed to be there and it's your job, people will ACCEPT you doing what you do, as they walk by.
Not if you live in a big, nasty city. Like London.

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Old 11-16-2007   #9
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You can be confident and someone can still get angry. The important thing is that there are no rules. You have to be in tune and intuitive, and have good street-smarts. And it helps to actually like people.
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Old 11-16-2007   #10
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"And it helps to actually like people."

Definitely.
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Old 11-16-2007   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablito
You can be confident and someone can still get angry.
I have no data to support this, but I believe that most people are uncomfortable with (and suspicious about) a total stranger photographing them doing nothing particulary interesting. That is probably why people get angry at street photographers.
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Old 11-16-2007   #12
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Pherd... I find that if I'm out shooting in the city people notice and some don't notice. Situation normal. However the act of carrying a visible camera and taking photos of thing in the street often seems to attract "people who want to be photographed". Frequently I'm out shooting on major streets here in Toronto and have been stopped and directly asked to take someone's photo.

I don't know why but people do this. Equally intriguing is the fact the shots are often interesting. They don't ask for copies and I often have to offer to email jpgs to those I have photographed.

All this is another thought that perhaps the very act of being out on the street with a camera and appearing competent may just bring you a couple of 'people' who want you to take their photo. Check it out you may get the same effect that I do.

Good luck.

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Old 11-16-2007   #13
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Heheh...I wouldn't try street photography in Singapore...
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Old 11-16-2007   #14
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You are right Pherdinand, yet I know one exception. Within a bus, if you do not show your camera, at some moment people will loose attention towards you as new passenger. Up to that point you can study what do you want to do. Then you can gently take out your camera and shoot. A single gentle shot.

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Last edited by ruben : 11-17-2007 at 03:51.
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Old 11-16-2007   #15
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You are right, Pherdinand. But that pretty much is true for shooting photos of passersby. In most other scenarios like events, parades, markets, children playing, etc... instances when you would be shooting several frames of the same crowd or location, the advice may be sound.

Personally, I often find the opposite to be true. Instead of lurking and trying to blend in, say in NYC, it sometimes helps to look like a tourist -- because tourists are expected to take photos. I guess by doing what is expected of you,it makes you less conspicuous, and makes people less apt to wonder "What the he** is this guy doing?"

Still, it goes without saying that there are vast cultural differences from place to place, as some posters have alluded to. "Rules" are well and good, but you just need to be sensitive to the people where you are and use common sense. Here's an extreme example posted by EddieCon in a past thread:

well, it may have been an isolated case but my friend's arm got stabbed by a balisong after he took a photo of some homeless person in quiapo (In the Philippines). someone from behind just appeared and demanded that he erase the photo. he explained that it was a film camera and he could not erase it. well, he pulled his balisong out, lunged for my friend's chest; my friend shielded himself with his arm; and the assailant just walked away. he had an M2 and i was wondering if that would have been a good shield or a weapon...

Luckily, I have not had such misfortune. I have been chased by a very BIG angry lady swinging a very heavy purse, though.

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Old 11-16-2007   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablito
The important thing is that there are no rules. You have to be in tune and intuitive, and have good street-smarts. And it helps to actually like people.
That's it!

No rules:
Each moment is unique in itself. You can apply past experience to determine how to shoot, but you must also be prepared to let go of an preconceived notions.

In tune (street smarts) and intuitive:
Become familiar with the local culture and even the culture of that particular neighborhood you're shooting in. Intuition comes from using your past experience and ability to still remain flexible, so that your actions now come without thought.

Like people:
If you approach street photography with a (I'll say) "love" for humans, no matter what they might think of you, I think most people with see you in a different light. Something as simple as a genuine smile can offer incfredible influence in how a stranger might take to you pointing a camera at him.
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Old 11-17-2007   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marke
That's it!

No rules:
.......

This is a rule too. But I like the general outline of mark, in the sense that it reminds us of a highly important refinement: To smell good each shooting situatiation and the mood of the people there.

This "freshness" is the one of young lovers, and could be ours if we remember it each day when we awake.

Cheers,
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Old 11-17-2007   #18
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A lot depends on where you are, too. In most of the world, people either ignore you or regard it as a bit of a lark. It used to be that way everywhere but in what the French inaccurately but conveniently lump together as the 'Anglo-Saxon' countries (USA, England) it's changed a lot in the last 20 years.

In France there's quite a 'right to privacy' but very few people seem to mind being photographed.

Cheers,

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Old 11-17-2007   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fWord
Heheh...I wouldn't try street photography in Singapore...
Why not? Did you have a bad experience?

BTW, these pics neither RF nor film, but they were taken in Singapore.
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Old 11-17-2007   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruben
.... But I like the general outline of mark, in the sense that it reminds us of a highly important refinement: To smell good each shooting situatiation and the mood of the people there.

This "freshness" is the one of young lovers, and could be ours if we remember it each day when we awake.

Cheers,
Ruben

A mighty "obstacle" in our capacity to "freshness", or to judge each situation by its own, is in our own "experience", which is our greatest instrument for finding our daily way.

Therefore it seems we are required to a "fresh", or self critical, approach of our own experience.

Wow, wow, wow, it is becoming really tough ! A lot of dust to puff out.

Cheers,
Ruben

Last edited by ruben : 11-17-2007 at 05:36.
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Old 11-17-2007   #21
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Sydney CBD seems pretty ok to me for street.

I did get this look once



But this guy wasn't in a photo, but after I spotted the dirty my way I did snap his photo :-D

I do get fairly close to people as well and have slowly been getting into the "walk right past me" kinda shots instead of lurking behind. It's not as bad as you think. I always hold the camera after the shot so it looks like I was photographing something else, or I just look past them. Either way I've gone in the city quite often and never, ever once had a problem.

Like I said, keep holding the camera up after the shot, and look through them afterwoods. Works like a charm.

You can check out some more street stuff on my blog if you wanna see how close "close" is http://www.theleakinglightbox.blogspot.com/

PS: Or you could just snap the stray dogs around your area, like this one nearish the CBD at Kings Kross ;-)





Hope it gets better for you mate,

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Old 11-17-2007   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pherdinand
So my question would be, i guess,: Why people keep on repeating this thing, while it's just not true in most cases?
It's like another old saying....when you repeat something often enough people believe it's the truth.
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Old 11-17-2007   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruben
This "freshness" is the one of young lovers, and could be ours if we remember it each day when we awake.
What a wonderful statement, Ruben! I'm going to use this as a daily reminder to myself!


Quote:
Originally Posted by ruben
A mighty "obstacle" in our capacity to "freshness", or to judge each situation by its own, is in our own "experience", which is our greatest instrument for finding our daily way.
Oh, how true this is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruben
Therefore it seems we are required to a "fresh", or self critical, approach of our own experience.

Wow, wow, wow, it is becoming really tough ! A lot of dust to puff out.

Cheers,
Ruben
I remember a quote by an artist that I read as a child. I probably will get it wrong, but I hope the message will be understood. And if anyone is familiar with the quote, PLEASE feel free to correct me.

In descibing an artist and the place he/she needs to be when in the process of creating: "Needs must be it a virgin, void, without form or thought"

In a sense, as ones who wish to create, we must see the world afresh, as Ruben stated. And to photograph the people we encounter on the street, we must see them as individuals, offering nothing short of compassion.
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Old 11-17-2007   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy P
I do get fairly close to people as well and have slowly been getting into the "walk right past me" kinda shots instead of lurking behind. It's not as bad as you think. I always hold the camera after the shot so it looks like I was photographing something else, or I just look past them. Either way I've gone in the city quite often and never, ever once had a problem.

Yes, yes! I've been doing more of that myself. I might plant myself in a walkway where there is little room for people to get any further than a few feet away from me as I shoot (unless they want to run into traffic, and I haven't lost one yet! ). This is where my Summicron 35/f2 or my Voightlander 25/f4 come in handy.
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Old 11-17-2007   #25
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I think about make my own business card.
Print there something like "a photojournalist", or "member of the art photo group" (existing, or non-existing). So, if people ask for a photographs of them - I'll give them that card.
BTW, I gave my phone and e-mail couple of times - nobody called
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Old 11-17-2007   #26
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Could I just say some things never change ? Taking photos round and about will always be controversial for some - but having ASdee , I never thought about it - and maybe this is thething - if you stop to '' think '' , then you lose the confidence , [ or unawareness ? ] , but I know that I lack street awareness anyway , but I am still here .

I find that waist level shots with any camera are discrete , it does not atke too much practise to focus 1st , and guess framing , but that's obvious anyway .

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Old 11-17-2007   #27
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""Personally, I often find the opposite to be true. Instead of lurking and trying to blend in, say in NYC, it sometimes helps to look like a tourist -- because tourists are expected to take photos. I guess by doing what is expected of you,it makes you less conspicuous, and makes people less apt to wonder "What the he** is this guy doing?"""


I think that's the point: you should give a good answer (not verbally of course) to the people that will wander what are you doing.

I use the following:

1- It is important the person is not sure you are taking a photo of him personally.
2- If it is obvious that you are taking a picture of that person , it helps to check that you are not giving the impression that the person is important but the situation.

If I cannot take a picture of someone without him knowing that he and his face are the only subject, I don't shoot. I think situations like this normally yields such an astonishment or sometimes anger from your subject that the picture will be a mess anyway. So why bother and face (justified) people's anger.
But the real strengh of RFs is in being very "not-directional" and allowing a great deal of doubt in the subject's mind about what exactly you are shooting.

In all situations, being nice and sensitive to people's feeling helps. Any sign that the person is unwilling to be photographied and my camera is down....

Just my 2 c

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Old 11-17-2007   #28
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I have never really had a problem. I walked around Tokyo for a couple of days doing some photography with a 4x5 view camera. I only got approached once and they were sadly disappointed the camera was not made in Germany.
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Old 11-17-2007   #29
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I posted a response to this issue on another thread not long ago so forgive me for repeating myself. About a month ago I spoke with an attorney. He advised that while on a public space an individual has no expectation of privacy. They can be photographed with immunity to the photographer as long as you do not obstruct their passage.
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Old 11-17-2007   #30
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Quote:
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I have never really had a problem. I walked around Tokyo for a couple of days doing some photography with a 4x5 view camera. I only got approached once and they were sadly disappointed the camera was not made in Germany.
Japan has got to be one of the best places on the globe for street photography.
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Old 11-17-2007   #31
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Japan has got to be one of the best places on the globe for street photography.
I have no argument there.
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Old 11-17-2007   #32
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I absolutely loved the time I spent living and working in Japan about 20! years ago. Unfortunately, my photography had not yet evolved into taking many people pictures. I was still into things and nature rather than street. My loss.
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Old 11-18-2007   #33
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Here in the UK, the BBC is running a series called "The Genius of Photography". Last week's episode (due to be re-run on Monday I think) showed a photographer I didn't know called Joel Meyerowitz using a Leica M6 on some busy streets (New York?). He was taking candids, right in people's faces, and it didn't seem to be a problem. I found it fascinating viewing. I will probably watch the re-run just to see this again.

Highly recommended if you have access to the BBC.
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Old 11-18-2007   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wintoid
Here in the UK, the BBC is running a series called "The Genius of Photography". Last week's episode (due to be re-run on Monday I think) showed a photographer I didn't know called Joel Meyerowitz using a Leica M6 on some busy streets (New York?). He was taking candids, right in people's faces, and it didn't seem to be a problem. I found it fascinating viewing. I will probably watch the re-run just to see this again.

Highly recommended if you have access to the BBC.
Yes, I've seen part of that on a youtube video. You have to remember that he was supported/surrounded by a video crew recording his street photography. He is good, but it's easy to be so bold and confident if you are playing the role of street photographer for a vedio crew, rather than just doing it on your own.
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Old 11-18-2007   #35
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Csab', I think you hit the nail on two heads at the same time.

First situation (where people come and go, and you just happen to be there) is where people see and "don't care". They have too little time to stop and "stare".

Second situation (where people still come and go, but where the regulars start to get used to you after repeated visits) is where people stop taking notice after a while.

Still, I think that shooting out in the open is the best way to go, though not necessarily the easiest. Either people pass you by without giving you much thought, or people let you do your thing because you've become part of the scenery.
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