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What's going on here?!
Old 11-22-2006   #1
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Thumbs down What's going on here?!

In another thread JaapV mentioned:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv
Sean is active and well on his own site and the Leica users Forum.. It is sad he was squeezed out of this forum


If Sean left RFF, we're all the worse for it. If there is/was 1 single person who makes/made this forum a solid source of information it is/was Sean.

I fear a lot of reviewers chew off their tail with the M8. Perhaps the pre-production models were a bit different, not tested under all circumstances, or perhaps some issues were not anticipated or judged due to pre-production model and/or firmware.

I think most people were a bit disappointed with the M8 not being up to their expectations, expectations set high to begin with by Leica's legendary quality (operator is the word "legend"). The M8 is no doubt a fine camera with excellent performance under normal circumstances, but for such a legendary brand to bring out a camera with such real and perceived flaws is unworthy of the brand, the camera and the customer.

RFF has lost more good people before (Hicks, Mattocks, etc come to mind) because of other members burning them down to the ground for reasons of their own. Sean seems to be the latest victim.

It's not for nothing that I've been distancing myself quite a bit from RFF over the past months. There are lots of great newcomers, fantastic oldtimers, loads of useful and truthful information to be found here. Yet, at the same time there are members who believe their opinions to be more valid than others, who feel a need to stir the **** on many occassions, who find it unnecessary to reply in respectful and hushed tones, who deny the universalness of this forum, etc.

I'm sick of it, and have been for quite some time. Yes, you can have strong opinions but your opinion might mean nothing to me. No need to defend your opinion by using strong words as it will only agitate me more and make me more reluctant to see your point if there was one. No need to stir the **** all the time either. I get enough **** at work. No need to be rude and disrespectful. If you don't have anything to say in a polite way than please don't say anything. No need to think that because you're from a certain background your opinion is more valid than others. We come from all over this world, from all walks of life and you don't know me all that well. So don't assume I might be inferior to you just because I don't come from where you live, because I don't believe the things you believe, don't understand exactly what you say, because I'm not as old or young as you are, or because I simply don't agree with you.

Sorry for the ranting but there's too much crap floating around these days in the forums here. Just my opinion, of course.
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Old 11-23-2006   #2
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Tempers on RFF come and go like the tide, but the relaxed atmosphere of the early days seems to have gone the way of the dodo.

I guess there's only so much that can be asked about rangefinders without going in circles or, what's worse, without provoking heated debate.

I too was so fed up with the bad karma a while ago, that I stayed away from RFF for 2 months, and instead decided to just take pictures and nothing else. Very refreshing I must say.. and in the mean time, things appear to have calmed down a bit, and there's enough worthwhile stuff to check in again.
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Old 11-23-2006   #3
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Remy, I have to agree with Manny here. Roger was continually trying to bring his world view into photographic discussions without any particular relevance to the topic in hand. He left of his own accord IIRC.
IMO Sean's contributions to the site seemed mostly to be promoting his paid review site. I resisted the temptation to sign up as I didn't find it relevant to me. I probably won't buy Roger's latest book either as I've read most of it in the back of AP.
I thought there was a rule against self promotion on this forum.
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Old 11-23-2006   #4
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Its still the nicest photo forum I know of. Havent been part of P.net, but the german Fotocommunity can be pretty mean and stupid sometimes. Every reply to a post begins with "check the search function- its really useful" or "here we go again" things like that. I try to avoid heated discussions altogether anyway, its too time and nerve consuming.
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Old 11-23-2006   #5
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Indeed one of the best forums on the net, only as&*$#le I know here is myself
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Old 11-23-2006   #6
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With the influx of new members (which I've noted over the past couple months) and the fact that RFF is a lot more "loose" than; say, Photo.Net, it's not surprising that all this stuff happens.

I agree with Manuel in this case.

If you want to talk about great folks leaving; I look to Brian Sweeney, who did a lot for folks on this board, as an example. While he used to correct lenses for folks; it certainly wasn't his business and did it out of the camaraderie that was here at the time. Mattocks, while he could be knowledgeable, loved to stir the pot and oft times the conversation he wanted was more political in nature than artistic or technical.

I would hardly paint messr Reid as a victim; no one is forcing anyone to do anything here. No one holds a gun to anyone elses head on this forum. If he decided to leave that's his decision. If I want to hear information from him I'll go and pay to read his site but I'm not that interested in doing so.

To me, acts like that always smack of the spoiled child in the playground who can't get his way during playtime. He puffs himself up, cries a little and then decides he's taking his ball and going home just so no one else can play; meanwhile the other children go on about their play nary concerned that he has left; and the only person that remains upset about it is the spoiled child.

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Old 11-23-2006   #7
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I agree with your about civility, always necessary, never a luxury.

But with members, it is like the tide, good ones leave, good ones arrive
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Old 11-23-2006   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyfisher Tom
But with members, it is like the tide, good ones leave, good ones arrive
Just as it is with gear . . . .

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Old 11-23-2006   #9
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I hope one day we will go to the direction when great photographers will join us, imagine koudelka as a forum member, that would be fantastic....
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Old 11-23-2006   #10
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Sometimes a bit of a break is good for you. We all get a tad fed up from time to time. I steer well clear of the heated topics these days and ignore the posts that could be quite confrontational. Not as regular as I used to be but popping in a bit more now. The old days are passed, the new days will be different, that does not meed worse, just different. Times change, so do people. Keep taking photos though.
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Old 11-23-2006   #11
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You can quote this if you like as a reason but the reality is different. Or at least that was the impression I got from Sean when he contacted me.

Kim

Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Borger
A very fine example of the general level and nuances in the discussions here at RFF ....and how people express themself lately......... no further need to explain why Sean left the place i guess ...........
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Old 11-23-2006   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim Coxon
You can quote this if you like as a reason but the reality is different. Or at least that was the impression I got from Sean when he contacted me.

Kim
I can only guess about Seans reasons Kim...... but the tone of voice here at RFF lately already has and will drive a lot of other people out ... it's almost DPreview at it's worst lately ... at least when it comes to M8 or anything related to digital threads! Sad.....!
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Old 11-23-2006   #13
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In case you haven't noticed already the Internet is not a suitable place for delicate little flowers.
And it might of been a lot friendlier here in the beginning when the RFF saw smaller, but the RFF itself wanted to grow bigger, and did and still does. This will have a positive effect on contribution-, and advertising income, but at the same rate show a deterioration of the friendly Homely atmosphere of the old days. You cannot stop this. I personally enjoy the RFF more now it's growing bigger and on a forum everybody is entitles to his or her's ... hence the meaning of the word "Forum"

And if really upset by Mr. Reid' departure here, I wouldn't worry to much, he will be back at the first noise of a new RFF related (camera) introduction....
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Old 11-23-2006   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachkebia
I hope one day we will go to the direction when great photographers will join us, imagine koudelka as a forum member, that would be fantastic....
...while it lasted. Because a number of people would pop up to say his photos are over-rated, his opinions are worthless, his working techniques are poor and he's only posting as an exercise in self-promotion. He'll decide that he has better things to do with his time, and wander off. Many will lament this, but others will say "good riddance", and think this justifies the behavior that made him lose interest.

...Mike
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Old 11-23-2006   #15
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The picks of the week is always very positive.

In the gallery the standard of photography is high, and the comments are well informed.

The Voigtlander forum (and I guess other specialist areas) is a civilized and helpful place characterized by polite questions and well thought out answers.
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Old 11-23-2006   #16
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I couldn't agree more and expressed my views on this subject a couple of weeks ago here. http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=30985

One of the things that drag it down are the vendettas when certain people will get an angry response whatever they post and the amount of posts commenting on members rather than photographic subjects. Unfortunately, it tends to be self perpetuating. One solution is "not to feed the trolls". Perhaps I am old fashioined but I do not believe that two wrongs make a right and quoting someone else's incivility does not excuse your own.

Kim

Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Borger
...... but the tone of voice here at RFF lately already has and will drive a lot of other people out ... it's almost DPreview at it's worst lately ... at least when it comes to M8 or anything related to digital threads! Sad.....!
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Old 11-23-2006   #17
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Just like phone calls I don't want or mail that is meaningless to me, I don't listen or just throw it away. Those whose tone is unacceptable to me, I don't read or give any value to no matter how talented they think they are. That is my choice and I certainly don't allow them to make me angry or upset, why give them that power. I love to take photos and talk cameras with civilized folks and I have found, for the most part, this is where they are. But like my brothers, some of the time I don't listen to them.
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Old 11-23-2006   #18
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IMHO, a forum is for the discussion of ideas and members should be free to discuss their opinions. However, it does not have to be in a rude manner. I came across an interesting quote recently:

Public forums cannot be resticted based on content. But even public forums can be restricted as to the time, place and manner of speech. In the 1972 case Grayned v. Rockford, the Supreme Court found that "The nature of a place, 'the pattern of its normal activities, dictate the kinds of regulations of time, place, and manner that are reasonable.'" In determining what is reasonable, the Court stated that "[the] crucial question is whether the manner of expression is basically incompatible with the normal activity of a particular place at a particular time." Thus, protesters have the right to march in support of a cause, but not on a public beach during the middle of the day with bullhorns.

Freedom of speech is hardly helped when it becomes a battlefield when members are subjested to incivility because their views differ. This a member's forum which is moderated and in which the owner has laid down a set of rules.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus
In case you haven't noticed already the Internet is not a suitable place for delicate little flowers.
And it might of been a lot friendlier here in the beginning when the RFF saw smaller, but the RFF itself wanted to grow bigger, and did and still does. This will have a positive effect on contribution-, and advertising income, but at the same rate show a deterioration of the friendly Homely atmosphere of the old days. You cannot stop this. I personally enjoy the RFF more now it's growing bigger and on a forum everybody is entitles to his or her's ... hence the meaning of the word "Forum"

And if really upset by Mr. Reid' departure here, I wouldn't worry to much, he will be back at the first noise of a new RFF related (camera) introduction....
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Old 11-23-2006   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachkebia
I hope one day we will go to the direction when great photographers will join us, imagine koudelka as a forum member, that would be fantastic....
We already have some great photographers here . I clicked on your photo blog and saw absolutley wonderful photos there. Very, very good work --especially the wide color portraits.
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Old 11-23-2006   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcsang
Just as it is with gear . . . .

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Old 11-23-2006   #21
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Well, allot of the M8 threads I chose to stay away from after my initial indignation over how Leica did not manage the cameras problems. So I have not seen the posts that got out of sorts at Sean. Really, all the reviewers took a hit on this one. If he didn't have any problems with the camera when testing then fine. I can give him the benefit of the doubt. Sean has a good history here, a history of being a helpful kind of guy. Yep, he is in business and like most of us he is not in business to lose money but make it. Those who review products are between a rock and a hard place. I hope that Sean starts to hang around here again but the longer he stays away the less likely it is that he will come back.
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Old 11-23-2006   #22
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Does anyone else notice that the cheaper a camera is the nicer the forum and the more helpful the people. And sometimes the better photos contained within
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Old 11-23-2006   #23
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just because RFF is getting bigger, does not mean civility needs to be a casualty ... I refuse to accept that friendliness depends on the forum's size

unfortunately, moderators can't be everywhere at every hour, that is what the "ignore list" function is for if someone truly irks you at every turn use it, and relax with a cup of coffee
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Old 11-23-2006   #24
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A good stew needs salt, too little and it’s bland, too much its inedible the mix seems about right to me.
Mind you I’m from Yorkshire where plain speaking is a virtue, and disagreeing without being disagreeable is the norm. So if I’ve ever offended anyone on the board I’ll take this opportunity to apologise
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Old 11-23-2006   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trius
Whatcha going for now, Dave?
I was eyeing Tom's CL.. and considered letting go of my IIIc and screw mount elmar and summaron. Then I realized I got enough gear ( for now . . . )

Civility has always been a hallmark of RFF.

I agree with Tom that it does not mean, because RFF has grown in size, that such things as "gentlemanly manners" have to go by the wayside.

The only thing I find frustrating is the rather blunt comments that seem to be made by folks who may be "new" to using this method of communication; that is, forums and the internet.

Many don't bother to use one of the best forum search tools around that we have here. Try doing the searches here and then see if you can do the same at Fredmiranda or any other site - good luck !! Yet people don't use the search tool so we do, inevitably, end up with multiple threads on the same topic. I recognize this; understand it, and don't usually enter into reading or responding to those threads.

The recent spate of M8 threads does get a bit tiresome; from both sides of the coin. Those that worship the M8 like it was divine providence as well as those that denigrate it seem to feel the need to do so very regularly. This does, as other members have suggested, happen often with digital bodies. To me, I am, and always will be, happy to use film in my M2 and M7 and currently have no desire for a digital M because to me, as many of you know, it's not JUST about images coming out of the camera; it's the entire photographic experience; and that's why I am on RFF and why I am a member here.

It's good to see that Leica is trying to make amends for something that should have been dealt with before releasing the camera. I hope this settles things for those out there that have purchased the body and that it doesn't further hinder sales of the M8.

Dave
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Old 11-23-2006   #26
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What's going on here?!

business as usual, as far as i can see.
maybe you had a bad day or feel the need for some bloodletting?

this tired argument about people leaving...get over it...people leave our lives all the time.

both bill & roger ARE STILL MEMBERS HERE, they chose to leave...others choose to stay.
some talk about leaving and never do...it takes all kinds i guess.

are we the perfect forum?, doubtful, but it's still good enough to keep me coming back for more.

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Old 11-23-2006   #27
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I appreciate the reminder to be civil, especially on the more incendiary topics of late. I'm gulity of a lack of civility lately, thinking back on some recent posts.

The galleries here are an inspiration, as always.

As for the forums, I'll do my best to say nothing rather than dwell on negativity.
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Old 11-23-2006   #28
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You can't stop change, and in some way all change is progress. My attitude is the same now (I think) that I am a moderator as it was when I was not, my behavior is different though in some ways. I have to have an opinion or not ignore certain posts that I would have before, but that is part of the territory. Honestly I read the M8 posts to make sure nobody has pulled a gun, but I have to say I don't get deep into the content of the threads. That is just me and no more right or wrong than everyone else's opinion who is deeply interested in this new wonder.

I will always say, the most important contribution we make to RFF is in our sharing though our posts. If we all treat that as carefully as we do our cameras we will be fine here.
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Old 11-23-2006   #29
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I've only been here a couple of months, but the place seems friendly to me, I've seen a bit of angst in some of the M8 threads but nothing very incendiary. I've certainly seen much worse elsewhere.

The gallery is really good too, there are some excellent photographers here.

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Old 11-23-2006   #30
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I think Sean's participation on RFF correlates directly to how much activities are occuring in the M8 forums. The the flip-side, the M8 threads are very active on the Leica users forum.
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