Old 12-14-2006   #41
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Yes, I just did it in five minutes, we are talking about color and mood, forget the cloud mask precision
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Old 12-14-2006   #42
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That last go round looks nice. In the end the more diffuse lighting of the slide shot is just a lot more attractive, but the digital has tons more detail and if the lighting (and sky )where equal could make a better print. Analog is still king if slides are your final product, nothing comes close to a transparency on a light box viewed through a high quality loupe, but thats not the way I show my work. B&W, thats a whole other story.
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Old 12-14-2006   #43
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THe M8 picture looks very disappointing to me .... also the mountains in the distance are soft/ blurry.
Problem is the quality of light has huge impact on any picture, but landscapes in particular. So i do not know if these were the same.
That said: getting the exposure of the M8 picture down by a simple curves adjustment makes it a lot better and closer to the picture from february.
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Old 12-14-2006   #44
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To tell you the truth, I think the February picture would be prettier which ever camera you took it with. Nothing to do with technical quality.

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Old 12-14-2006   #45
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Jeepers... I'm wondering how I can use this as a further indictment of the M8.

Just kidding...
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Old 12-14-2006   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AusDLK
Jeepers... I'm wondering how I can use this as a further indictment of the M8.

Just kidding...
IR reflection from the snow misleading the meter into overexposing?

Iím kidding as well
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Old 12-14-2006   #47
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Unfair! I'm in a hotel room with just a half-size laptop!!

Another one for you guys to play with: Dusk from just now...
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Old 12-14-2006   #48
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When I've spent my $5,000 on an M8, all of my digital shots will look better to me as well.

Nobody will shift me from that position.

Until then, the second is saleable, the first is not.
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Old 12-14-2006   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv
Unfair! I'm in a hotel room with just a half-size laptop!!

NOw keep on sending only nice pictures Jaap ...... trolls enough without you behaving like one
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Old 12-14-2006   #50
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okay I'll play
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Old 12-14-2006   #51
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A few questions from a Neanderthaler in the digital field :
- Talking about filters, the Sesia was shot with a POL filter, can this filter be used on an digital tcamera resulting the same effect?
- Could the light quality in the M8 picture not been influenced by changing the white balance like this can be done on film with a colour balancing filter (via the Mired system)?
- About manipulating digital images, where does the reality stops and when does the fantasy takes over? And can this be done unpunished?
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Old 12-14-2006   #52
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Photeil wrote: - About manipulating digital images, where does the reality stops and when does the fantasy takes over? And can this be done unpunished?
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Old 12-14-2006   #53
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This is a little disturbing. The edited picture I put up really looked good on my home monitor. From work it looks Horrible. How does one know if what you PS on your monitor will look good to others?
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Old 12-14-2006   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge Torralba
This is a little disturbing. The edited picture I put up really looked good on my home monitor. From work it looks Horrible. How does one know if what you PS on your monitor will look good to others?

Calibration ?
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Old 12-14-2006   #55
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There is no telling what your image will look like on any given monitor.

As to manipulation, all that's been done here is tone curve adjustment. Compare a drug store print to a master exhibition print, you would not believe they came from the same neg. How do they do it? Manipulation!
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Old 12-14-2006   #56
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there IS no way to make sure everyone will see it the way you do.
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Old 12-14-2006   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv
Unfair! I'm in a hotel room with just a half-size laptop!!

Another one for you guys to play with: Dusk from just now...
I like this one and if you look at it as a DR example it certainly beats any slide film I have used.
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Old 12-14-2006   #58
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Arrrgggghhh!!

That's my reaction. Two different days, times, cameras, post processing. It's all relative.

Stop bashing the M8, just to have something to bitch about! It's pointless. There are way too many variables here to come down hard in one direction.

AcckkK!
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Old 12-14-2006   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge Torralba
This is a little disturbing. The edited picture I put up really looked good on my home monitor. From work it looks Horrible. How does one know if what you PS on your monitor will look good to others?
That's a major problem; in short, you don't know, even if your system is calibrated to a fare-thee-well.

To wit: when I worked at a stock photo agency, at the leading edge of the digital-imaging era, I was fielded a call from a client who complained that a scanned file we FTP'd them for a "comp" was horrible in terms of color balsnce. This was late 1999, we were just getting into scanning our work, and, cotrary to just about everyone else in the field, we ran our office on PCs, while everyone we worked with, including Sports Illustrated, were on Macs. I had figured out a thing or two regarding monitor calibration (primitive as it was at the time, 'specially on the Windows side), But I had to move mountains to resolve this issue for the client in question, including walking her through the calibration process on her own computer...via phone. It's not just about technological literacy (though, Dog knows, that helps), it's about, for lack of a better term at-hand, visual literacy. Without one or both of the above, you're truly screwed.


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Old 12-15-2006   #60
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This is a very interesting thread, but I must admit that I introduced one variable that clouded the issue:I used a pol-filter on the film shot.I was amazed how close the PS experts managed to come. However, today I managed to drop my filterbox into my pocket before getting into the chairlift. I think, with this parameter removed, the M8 does indeed sing. . Having said that, the colour rendering of the original, unpolarized shot is by far closest to reality, albeit not as pleasing as the pol-filter ones.
In the mountains, B&W rules!
Two other remarks: It turns out to be impossible on the M8 to use the pol-filter without stacking it with an IRcut filter. It seems that IR light is not polarized and a pol-filter heats up the photo unacceptably. Also I notice some anti-vignetting. It may be a polfilter on a WA lens, but it may also mean that this combo: pol+ IRcut causes the firmware to overcompensate


Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv
Same place,same lens (Tri-Elmar) This morning, M8


Last Februari, Fuji Sensia



Admitted, the trees have some more detail on the original slide. But not even close to the M8. And I had to use a polfilter for the film to avoid a pale sky. And I oversharpened the film shot.
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Old 12-15-2006   #61
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Jaap, do you have (or can you take) some shots with 24 and 21 with the IR filter so I can see the cyan corner thing? I'd like to mess around with it to see how easy/hard it is to correct it.
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Old 12-15-2006   #62
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I don't know, I used to think I would get an M8 and live happily ever after but seeing some images and filter problems and dust on the sensor I wonder would I be wise in spending 3000 pounds on one.
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Old 12-15-2006   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Z
Jaap, do you have (or can you take) some shots with 24 and 21 with the IR filter so I can see the cyan corner thing? I'd like to mess around with it to see how easy/hard it is to correct it.
Ben, my M8 goes off to Solms for its update.I'll post some24nmm shots then, but the ones I have now with firmware 1.06 don't show any significant vignetting. The crux will be the 21 with the new firmware.But I need my 46 mm IRcut filter first.
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Old 12-15-2006   #64
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jaapv,

Reading this thread, particularly your responses, makes it clear you are satisfied with your decision to purchase a M8.

That's great! So why continue feeding the discussion thread?

In all honesty, you know your decision is irrevocable.

At the same time, in all honesty, I think the M8 + Leitz lens images you've shown are nice but unspectacular, and not significantly better than could be obtained by a high-end digital P&S at a tenth or less of the combined camera body/lens price.

I certainly do not think they are inarguably better than the "comparable" film shots.

The "comparison images" you've posted here of digi vs. film are irrelevant. Conditions vary. After all, they were taken 10 months apart - not side-by-side. Everything else being equal (e.g. clearness/humidity/cloud cover etc.), on any given day at the same time, aren't sunlight angles different in February than Decmeber at the latitude you took the photos? Did you "control" for light angle and intensity factors etc.?).

Also, viewer's monitors vary and scans of film images depend on which scanner you used. Then too, the original scan imaging level (RAW/TIFF/JPEG) and the consequent conversion down to JPEG with resizing to "fit" the website upload parameters are additional variables that will "affect" the images.

And all that assumes you didn't do any PS manipulation afterward. Right?

Oh, and let's not forget that the M8 requires "filter fixes" to get to the images you've posted.

Enjoy your camera - it's nice - I'm sure you love it. But, frankly, from what you've shown here, it is NOT the "be all and end all" of the photographic art!
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Old 12-15-2006   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena
Enjoy your camera - it's nice - I'm sure you love it. But, frankly, from what you've shown here, it is NOT the "be all and end all" of the photographic art!
Thanks for your good wishes, but I do think you have gotten hold of entirely the wrong end ofbthe stick here.
I am, since 50 years a RF shooter and only use SLR's when I have to - and reluctantly.
With the Canonn10D I found that digital capture works better for me thanfilm.
So do I have any option here? And I am happy with the results. But nobody here is foolish enough to think one can compare film to didgital in terms of "better" or "the be all and end all" or something that ridiculous. What we are doing here is looknig at different shots at different times of the year, with different light and yes, different capture media. On a monitor too. Had I really wanted to do comparison shots I would have taken a tripod, another subject and compared prints. Which I did not and wont. This thread is for light amusement.You, with due respect, take it far too seriously.
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Old 12-16-2006   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv
Ben, my M8 goes off to Solms for its update.I'll post some24nmm shots then, but the ones I have now with firmware 1.06 don't show any significant vignetting. The crux will be the 21 with the new firmware.But I need my 46 mm IRcut filter first.

Wait, so you are using an IR filter on the 24mm, no firmware correction, and not seeing any cyan corners? That's weird because others say it's pronounced. BTW what kind of 21mm do you have that will take a 46mm filter??
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Old 12-16-2006   #67
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I haven't yet on the images I took; but there are not whitish surfaces near the corners there. I have the ZI Biogon
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Old 12-17-2006   #68
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I have been using Canon 1Ds elusively for the last couple of years. It gets the job done but I have never warmed up to the Canon system. The exception being the 135/2 which is a match to any lens I've used on any system 135, medium or large format. I am trying to figure out now how I might cost justify a move to the M8 (as my clients are happy with what they are now getting). I would love to get back to RF + leica.


The compromise of using the IR filters? They don't weigh anything, they don't have any filter factor, I'd bet in a side by side test on a tripod set in concrete you wouldn't be able to tell the difference in the resolution of a lens with or without the filter. All in all for me less of a compromise then having to shoot with a Canon DSLR, which is a compromise I've made for the last few years in order to be able to shoot digitally. Every camera platform I have used involved all kinds of compromises, you pick the system where the advantages outweigh the minuses for your particular situation. There is no best system or even better system, there is only the system that enables you to produce the work you want be it a Holga or an 8x10 view camera.
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Old 12-17-2006   #69
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And here is my version of the Nachkebia's version of the corrected M8 picture Little dodging and burning, fixing curves and saturation a little bit and doing some high pass sharpening.
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Old 12-17-2006   #70
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M8 Bashing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv
Same place,same lens (Tri-Elmar) This morning, M8


Last Februari, Fuji Sensia



Admitted, the trees have some more detail on the original slide. But not even close to the M8. And I had to use a polfilter for the film to avoid a pale sky. And I oversharpened the film shot.
I'm wondering if you're really going to expect anyone to take you seriously after what can only be described as an assnine comparison?
I'm so tired of all these 'M8 buyers remorse stricken complainers'. It's quite simple, if you don't like the camera and you really think it's that God aweful then I will put you in touch with at least 20 people that I know personally who will buy it from you sight unseen at your original cost (providing there are no scratches or niks). There are back orders like you wouldn't believe at Samy's LA. B&H doesn't even know when they will next get the camera. Stop bitching and take some damn pictures will you.

-charlie
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Old 12-17-2006   #71
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Old 12-17-2006   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv
. . . This thread is for light amusement. . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascender
I'm wondering if you're really going to expect anyone to take you seriously after what can only be described as an assnine comparison?
I'm so tired of all these 'M8 buyers remorse stricken complainers'. It's quite simple, if you don't like the camera and you really think it's that God aweful then I will put you in touch with at least 20 people that I know personally who will buy it from you sight unseen at your original cost (providing there are no scratches or niks). There are back orders like you wouldn't believe at Samy's LA. B&H doesn't even know when they will next get the camera. Stop bitching and take some damn pictures will you.

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Old 12-17-2006   #73
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I think that's what happens when one replies after reading the first post in a long thread, without reading the rest of it.
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Old 12-17-2006   #74
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No, you are both incorrect! That's what happens when people waste time pixel peeping, critiquing and making irrelevant, time wasting not to mention unintelligent comparisons instead of being realistic. As for horseplay turning to tears, what's the point of having a discussion forum if people cannot speak their mind? I don't mince words, I say what I believe. Anyone who doesn't like their cameras can sell them to a long list of would-be buyers. I've nothing against people submitting their findings regarding the M8 or any other camera for that matter. What I find ridiculous is the bitching about wishing they'd never bought it in the first place! People need to get a grip on reality and look at what has been acheived by Leica. They have portalled a 57 yr old camera over to to digital!!! PEEEEERSPEEEEEECTIIIIIIVE!!!.

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Old 12-17-2006   #75
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Still doesn't get it.
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Old 12-17-2006   #76
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A couple of things, Charlie: First, don't take things too seriously. This is for entertainment purposes. Secondly, the tone here at RFF is somewhat mellower than on some other photo forums, and we like it that way.
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Old 12-17-2006   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankS
A couple of things, Charlie: First, don't take things too seriously. This is for entertainment purposes. Secondly, the tone here at RFF is somewhat mellower than on some other photo forums, and we like it that way.
Well put Frank ... you seem a little angsty Charlie. When I see people getting stroppy on this forum I get edgy and reminded of why I stay away from some of the other sites where this type of behaviour seems par for the course!

Check the current level of posting on the p.net Leica/rangefinder Forum mate and you will see a graphic demonstration of where this can lead!
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Old 12-17-2006   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascender
. . . .what's the point of having a discussion forum if people cannot speak their mind? . . .-charlie
Please see this thread:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=32854
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Old 12-17-2006   #79
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Bottom line is that this forum is for open discussion

Agreed, but that doesn't mean it has to be nasty and disrespectful.

One only has to look at the number of posts that some of our members put out there to realize that some of us are clicking away at the computer keyboard instead of with our cameras

So let's just close RFF down completely so we aren't distracted from taking photos 24/7. I developed 3 rolls of 120, printed about 15 8x10 and 5x7's silver gelatin prints, and shot 1/2 roll of 135 APX100 today.
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Old 12-17-2006   #80
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I don't need to visit other forums to get a lesson in where speaking ones mind can lead. As for still not getting it....getting what? I vist this forum/thread to read some constructive views on a camera that I love so well, to hear other peoples experiences with said camera and to share my own somewhat prosumer experiences. I don't subscribe here to read a bunch of pecimistic nonsense usually written buy people who don't even have the camera. For those of you who do have the camera you should damn well consider yourselves lucky. My point is that Leica has made a camera that has allowed us M lens owners the freedom and latitude unlike ever before by continuing a 57 year old legacy. They have allowed us to be engaged by the process, by what we all fell in love with it for in the first place. They have allowed us to continue our PHOTOGRAPHY in this all too dynamic digital age. So when I read a bunch of negative, wishy-washy nonsense about regretting purchasing the camera and I repeat, without doubt the most assnine comparison I've ever had the misfortune of seeing...yes! it does make me a angstsy. On the contrary I think that it is the critics on this forum that take the whole thing way too seriously, not I. I mean come on man, does anyone out there realize with all of it's quirks and faults what this incredible M8 can do? There are things possible with that camera that we could only have dreamt about when using our M6's/7's or whatever and now we are here, using our M lenses in the digital world and continuing the Leica legacy. You all should lighten up and stop comparing and stop reading and just go out and shoot the damn thing. I am a musician and one thing you quickly learn in my line of work is that there are two types of people, one's who write about it and one's who go out and do it! Needless to say which group I belong in. Leica have gone out ad done it with a brilliant version one answer to all of our dreams. I'm officially done, that's it, that's all I've got on this thread.

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