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Leica M8 / M8.2 / Ricoh GXR Smaller than full frame digital Leica M mount cameras. The Ricoh is included as a less expensive and viable digital Leica M lens platform.

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Old 10-25-2006   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by photogdave
For crying out loud! No one is trying to say the M8 will make better photos than a Canon 1Ds or Nikon D2-whatever. All that is being said is that it is providing COMPARABLE image quality to these cameras in the RF form.
Many photographers have been waiting for this and I have spoken to a few pro M shooters who will definitely buy this camera. Let's get over it! Pro DSLR shooters - as you were.

BUT for the long term survival of Leica they have to appeal to a new generation not just 'M shooters'. I've often thought that all the guff in Leica press releases about letting the photographer have control and not interfering with the photgraphers vision is to cover up the fact that they can't compete with the big boys in R+D terms and so they try to make a virtue of their simplicity. I really wonder what cameras they'd produce with Canon's budget and how much their 'philosophy'would change
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Old 10-25-2006   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorkone
It's pointless to compare AF SLR systems to RF. Different tools for different needs. Personally I will own both.
The context of his comment, if you read thru the whole thread was why most pros will not use this camera when given the choice of a pro DSLR and the M8.
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Old 10-25-2006   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv
I had not thought of it that way, but yes, I seldomly see a pro using the setting "baby 2"
Correct but (there's that word again) we do use a variety of program modes like program, aperture priority, shutter priority and auto focus. German cars and cameras have always been more sparce in features than Japanese cars and cameras. The good thing is those features have given more options and have taken camera technology a few steps forward. I'm one of those photographers that still like the basics and still shoot M's and shoot Nikon F2's still. I also use automation when needed and select the machine to do the job at hand.

You might find the attached image interesting. It's from a shoot this morning and was from a model shot 1/2 full length (waste up to about six inches above the head. This is a 100% crop from a canon raw file converted in PS CS2 with default sharpening. Data, canon 1DsII, 85mm 1.2 at 8 and ISO 100.

The 1DsII is about $1000 more expensive than the M8 but the 1DIIN is just as sharp and produces virtually the same quality image as the 1DsII. I think the 1DIIN is cheaper than the M8.

This wasn't from a close up of the face.
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Old 10-25-2006   #44
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Okey guys! you have convinced me! I want M8! all you have to do is buy it for me!
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Old 10-25-2006   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorkone
It's pointless to compare AF SLR systems to RF. Different tools for different needs. Personally I will own both.
Why? I have both systems and have done pro work with both (and MF). I could shoot portraits, documentary, or travel on any of those three systems but in the end duplicating capabilities across systems isn't very cash efficient so I put my money into what I thought was the best bet - so I did make a direct comparison and was by no means pointless.
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Old 10-25-2006   #46
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Am i the only one having the impression this thread, as most M8 or digital related threads, are leading nowhere ..... a complete waste of bandwith and time ... ........i had it for today ..... of to the pub
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Old 10-25-2006   #47
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C'mon Leica. Get this M8 in the shops so we can talk about the R4A and R4M which should surely have you worried.

They have 21mm framelines in the viewfinder... Yes, that is something new.
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Old 10-25-2006   #48
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I suppose there is a category of pro's - it probably depends on inclination and specialty- that really appreciate the advent of the M8. At any rate,HERE a number of them are excitedly gearing up....
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Old 10-25-2006   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Borger
Am i the only one having the impression this thread, as most M8 or digital related threads, are leading nowhere ..... a complete waste of bandwith and time ... ........i had it for today ..... of to the pub
This, as most of these threads are, is therapy for those who are about to drop $5000 on a camera that will produce images as good as cameras costing $1000. Not pointless at all
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Old 10-25-2006   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ywenz
Quote:
Originally Posted by rxmd
Yeah, and that the images have this plasticky digital look but you can take the M8 into a warzone with you.

Philipp
You can with a battery less M3 or M2, not with this M8 with all its electronics..

Looks like the Leica marketing is doing a fine job on people...
Some of you guys left your humour outside with the dog, did you?

I was commenting on the two "M8" pictures with the plasticky half-dressed girl and the tank.

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Old 10-25-2006   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Claremont
C'mon Leica. Get this M8 in the shops so we can talk about the R4A and R4M which should surely have you worried.

They have 21mm framelines in the viewfinder... Yes, that is something new.
Tell me about it, R4 sounds fantastic! I don`t know about M8 but I am definetly getting bessa R4!
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Old 10-25-2006   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby
I think the M8 is a throw back to the era when pro cameras had fewer features than their amateur cousins (think FE2 compared to F3 or A1 compared to F1)
The new F1 actually had a lot more features compared to the A-1.

The old F1 from 1971 didn't, but then it was seven years older than the A-1.

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Old 10-25-2006   #53
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Take a look at this:

http://www.iol.ie/~corkflor/wetzlar3.html

Several shots are represented in following pages.

M8 + Noctilux
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Old 10-25-2006   #54
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R4 will have built-in framelines for 21, 25, 28, 35 and 50mm focal lengths. M mount.

R4A with electronic shutter, matte black and auto/manual exposure,
R4M with mechanical shutter, glossy black and manual exposure.

About April 2007, thought to be about the same price as the R2's and R3's.

Abrahamsson provided the concept, and Kobayashi is making it. R4 is not a me too camera, it's a completely new market segment.
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Old 10-25-2006   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Borger
Am i the only one having the impression this thread, as most M8 or digital related threads, are leading nowhere ..... a complete waste of bandwith and time ... ........i had it for today ..... of to the pub
Let's start being rational then: we are on RFF so we opt for rangefinders (D)SLR's are out then.
We are on the digital section so we leave our film in the gearbag.
Two options left :RD1 and M8. We are in the M8 thread. The camera is still in transit to us, so there is nothing to talk about. So what do we talk about?: nothing
Which pub?
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Old 10-25-2006   #56
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I'm not talking about the survival of the company or its marketing tactics. That's for discussions on other threads.
I'm talking about the members here who shoot DSLR in a professional capacity trying to rain on the parade of the members who are excited about the M8. Most people here seem pretty educated and quite aware of the overall limitations of a rangefinder vs. SLR. EVERYONE here knows this! Old news!
No one is expecting the files from the M8 to appear magically better than a pro DSLR. They are just excited that they will be just as good. All I'm saying is, can't we just let them be excited?
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Old 10-25-2006   #57
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Quote:
Is anyone ever going to post some GOOD pictures taken with the M8.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ywenz
Way to hijack the thread Jon Claremont.



That was Leica job.. is anyone at work there!? stupid strategy..

They did not send me M8 so there will be no good pictures
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Old 10-25-2006   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby
Why? I have both systems and have done pro work with both
Even more reason that you should understand that the two systems have uses and strengths which aren't entirely duplicative. You also mention that if Leica had the money what would they do differently...I don't know the answer to that but I definitely know that I would rather they not go down the same road as companies like Canon, Nikon...whatever SLR company, take your pick. If Leica made an autofocus, wiz-bang RF I wouldn't buy it. Contax did it...look where they are.

1DsII...amazing camera and for some things cannot be beat but for street photography and most candid portraits, an RF camera simply is the best option. From my experience, In reportage situations people more often than not shy away from the giant SLR's with giant zoom lenses but for some reason they warm up to the RF.
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Old 10-25-2006   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorkone
1DsII...amazing camera and for some things cannot be beat but for street photography and most candid portraits, an RF camera simply is the best option. From my experience, In reportage situations people more often than not shy away from the giant SLR's with giant zoom lenses but for some reason they warm up to the RF.
Very reasonable comments, which I totally agree. I just don't like how ppl claim the M8 is or will produce the most film-like images of all digital cameras..
. pffttt ( is there a line formed to suck Leica's you know what? get 'em knee pads out boys... )

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Old 10-25-2006   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ywenz
( is there a line formed to suck Leica's you know what? )
Maybe that's what you have to do to get moved up in the waiting list...
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Old 10-25-2006   #61
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Quote:

1DsII...amazing camera and for some things cannot be beat but for street photography and most candid portraits, an RF camera simply is the best option. From my experience, In reportage situations people more often than not shy away from the giant SLR's with giant zoom lenses but for some reason they warm up to the RF.
But am I the only one who's spotted the irony in the fact that street photography has very limited commercial potential but the ideal street photography tool is one of the most expensive cameras on the market?
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Old 10-25-2006   #62
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Being thinking and enjoying about the general trend of thoughts in this thread. Thanks all.

I'm a canon professional who's interested in the M8 (Not changing system but adding to my repertoire). The M8 will serve to open new areas of work for me and the M8's strengths are opposite to the strengths of the Canon system. My canons are excellent for some of my work but not all my clients are well served by a Canon.

I am considering a Leica M8 for its quietness, excellent low distortion compact lenses at wide open apertures and consistent reliable mechanics of its lenses. And the lack of the AA filter.


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Old 10-25-2006   #63
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby
But am I the only one who's spotted the irony in the fact that street photography has very limited commercial potential but the ideal street photography tool is one of the most expensive cameras on the market?
Very true! Aiming high at an M8 requires serious considerations at your economics of operations. No passerby I've encountered ever offered me any money even for a memorable composition. sigh!

Fortunately, for some of the jobs I do, I can justify an M8.

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Old 10-25-2006   #64
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For me it is not that.
1. digital workflow - unavoidable nowadays unless you are a B&W shooter or want to invest major effort and time in a colour darkroom ( or accept the doubtful output of lab's).
2.Filmscanning - I don't know about you, but I personally don't have the time or the inclination and, frankly, unless one really invests those two the results are variable at best.
3.SLR's- been there-done that. Decades of use taught me that RF-s are my thing.
4.DSLR's- great machines if you need them or like them.Great results if you have a good one.I kept the one I disliked least.
5.RD1- nice if not great camera, betters most prosumer digital offerings. But not the camera for a Leica M user of 35 years.
6.The M8- Finally a Leica M that promises to yield results that are in the same range as the best digital camera's now on the market.
So excuse me please if I am happy that it has come and that I am pleased when prelimerary results seem to confirm that it delivers its promise.
And to comment on the wealthy amateur remarks. Yes I am an amateur - which, incidentally, means somebody who does something because he really likes to. But wealthy? not according to my bank manager - If my signature looks like it: consider that that represents 50 years of up-trading equipment.
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Old 10-25-2006   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lxlim
Very true! Aiming high at an M8 requires serious considerations at your economics of operations. No passerby I've encountered ever offered me any money even for a memorable composition. sigh!

Fortunately, for some of the jobs I do, I can justify an M8.

Alex

I think that for what I would use it for I'd be lucky if it paid for itself in a year or two.
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Old 10-25-2006   #66
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I have to admit that these few examples aren't a 100% proof for top-notch-image-quality.
But it's not a 10MP-consumer-camera.
It uses the most expensive 35mm-hardware on the market, the best lenses in the world and has a build quality unlike any other (35mm-segment). Professional C and N are robust, so is the M8. But the M8 is build to fulfill highest standards Leica-customers are used to. Why do you think they use CNC-milling to make all outer parts of the camera? Why this expensive finish in every detail? Because it's a Leica. They don't think of financing a 100Mil. $ marketing-campaign due a 20%-margin of your (not soo cheap) C/N.

A 10MPixel can't do magic, but when I think of the M8-files (I've shot a few DNGs at a shop) and especially DMR-files (which even uses an older sensor) I can say that this is top-quality - it has nothing to do with cheap consumer-cameras.
You have to shot RAW and you have to uses the latest generation Leica-lenses and you will get an unique combination!
The lenses aren't used to 100%, but you can buy them now and they will bring you extreme quality with further developed sensors in the future.

Canon is superior? Yes, when you shoot sports, need fast pictures this is the perfect tool. Everybody else who is willing to pay this much money should think about it twice. Many Canon-users which prefer IQ over speed already switched to the DMR (it's still only a niche between 35mm and MF-backs), the M8 has even further advantages.
But two things are simply extraordinary:
The build quality (bodies and lenses) and the optical-lens-quality.

Everybody who likes to use wideangles should try this when the M8 is out:

M8+ 16-21-Tri (about 7000€) vs. 1dsMarkII/Nikon D2X + any WA-lens from C/N (5000-9000€).
Have you handled the small <800g (no plastic!!!) -combo with the new 2,8/28Asph. ? Compare it at open aperture against your 2kg-DSLR-solution (they're build for a special purpose: speed)...

Or simply try the 1,4/35Asph at open aperture, or the 90AA, or...

Just try it yourself!
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Old 10-25-2006   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby
I think that for what I would use it for I'd be lucky if it paid for itself in a year or two.
We all need to justify the expenses sensibly or we will be out of business. I never considered a leica for any of my work until I worked out the requirements of my clients and then only as a subset of my toolkit. Never considered the Leica in my film days as the Sinar was my main bread and butter camera with the Rollei and the Canons for other work. The M series never fitted then.

Three key factors made me lean toward a leica.

A 5D or 1DSmkII with the equivalent lenses would seriously impair my mobiity as well as my speed of response.

Canon's AF while excellent is not 100% accurate in certain conditions especially with wides at 40 to 80 meters range.

Viewing outside the imaging area is valuable to me. The equal of having zooms.

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Old 10-25-2006   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lxlim
We all need to justify the expenses sensibly or we will be out of business. I never considered a leica for any of my work until I worked out the requirements of my clients and then only as a subset of my toolkit. Never considered the Leica in my film days as the Sinar was my main bread and butter camera with the Rollei and the Canons for other work. The M series never fitted then.

Three key factors made me lean toward a leica.

A 5D or 1DSmkII with the equivalent lenses would seriously impair my mobiity as well as my speed of response.

Canon's AF while excellent is not 100% accurate in certain conditions especially with wides at 40 to 80 meters range.

Viewing outside the imaging area is valuable to me. The equal of having zooms.

Alex
I agree - its totally reflective in how you work. I made a conscious decision to sacrifice some image quality for zooms, although I do keep a 50 1.4 with me.

I certainly do not blindly trust AF

I know I can street shoot with my Bessa kit a lot long longer than I can with my EOS kit and that in itself may yield a better result. But to the same extent I often have days when I think I've always got the wrong lens on the camera I have that less often with zooms.

There is no perfect kit. There are always compromises. No one yet has made my perfect camera.

I'm interested in the M8 but I like to wait to see what people think when the cameras been around for a few months. I'm not worried about image quality I've made nice pictures with £100 SLR's and crappy ones with a 6x7. I know in the end its down to me.
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Old 10-25-2006   #69
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Measurebators.....

Hopefully there will enough Brick Walls availible once the distribtution gets going.

I dread to think of the content of various rangefinder/leica related fori once people get their hands on one ....

Me, I will just go out and take pictures, avoid brick walls and give the internet a rest for a while, ahhh yes I will put my M8 on my bedside cabinet for the first couple of weeks and perhaps stroke it when I wake up in the middle of the night, that is if it ever ships.....

I was promissed a shipment date of end October, which is now second week of december .....

But then again Leica is a company that doesn't need "actual" customer satisfaction, the red dot performs wonders. On another forum I read a remark about the sharpness of the digilux 3

"ok so it seems less sharp than X,y and z, but then you only need sharpness if your into architectural and art photography, I don't do that, so I'm happy"

Very easy customer base, people that will polish off quality issues by simply disregarding them.

I wish my industry type would work like that .....
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Old 10-25-2006   #70
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I am a photojurnalist and I forsee using the m8 (ordering tomorrow) in more or less in about 80% of my avalable light work I will still use my nikon but it will mostly be used for the long lens, flash and run and gun shooting that I do.
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Old 10-25-2006   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaapv
Let's start being rational then: we are on RFF so we opt for rangefinders (D)SLR's are out then.
We are on the digital section so we leave our film in the gearbag.
Two options left :RD1 and M8. We are in the M8 thread. The camera is still in transit to us, so there is nothing to talk about. So what do we talk about?: nothing
Which pub?
this actually makes sense.
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Old 10-25-2006   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gid
Agreed, even though I love my RD-1. However, I doubt the image quality will be any better than the semi pro/prosumer kit with 10 MP - Nikon D200, forthcoming Pentax K10D etc. The M8's USPs are it is an M mount RF (with all of the benefits that brings), it is most likely better built than the RD-1 and you'll most likely get it serviced in the future. It will never be as robust as a mechanical M - the electronics will see to that - no banging in nails or fending off a mugger with this one

As far a price is concerned, it is a better deal than the RD-1 was when it was launched - MP/M7 + 50% versus something like CV R3 + 300% (I'm ignoring the ergonomics of the RD-1 which are great, but still not really worth that sort of mark up).

I'm sure that the M8 will be a relative success and in the right hands, capable of producing great images, but not necessarily any better than a whole raft of other digital cameras or existing film cameras. No sour grapes here, I will eventually get one, once user feedback is in the public domain, as my RD-1 will not last forever.
Only a few years ago Kodak had the only real game going in DSLR equipment. It's been within the past seven years that a camera with less than 3MP was $30,000. When Nikon came out with the D1 the Kodak 2.5mp ( don't remember the exact MP) was in the $30K range and the cheapest Kodak was $14,000. I shot with the AP digi SLR once and found it almost unusable. The files were terrible but the camera was $17K. I guess I look at this from a professional point of view and see the fantastic improvements in digital and see how the prices tumbled after the D1 Nikon came out at under $5K (2.75 MP). This basically is what's happened with the RD-1 and now the M8. Features, image and build quality had jumped through the roof. I see the M8 the same way as the new crop of DSLR's but tamed down somewhat. I don't see it as particularly over priced as much as I see it weak on features and specs for a comperable DSLR. Build will be great but in a time that technology doubles every 18 months I don't see that traditional Leica build is important like it was in a film camera that would be used for 50 years. In 5 years or less the M8 will be so out dated in technology they will be selling for under $1000. Even at this point I would'nt say the M8 is a technology marvel but would consider it's image quality to equal but not better the current crop of prosumer / pro DSLR's. Leica missed the boat in PJ use when they didn't incorporate water and dirt seals in the body and lenses. Our film M will keep on going under the worst conditions but rain and dirt are the death of digital.
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Old 10-25-2006   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gid
This, as most of these threads are, is therapy for those who are about to drop $5000 on a camera that will produce images as good as cameras costing $1000. Not pointless at all

I love it! Not trying to beat up on you guys but I think it's a way to justify spending $5K on a camera just to save $250 a year in film and processing.

I think we've nailed it :<).

When I was thinking about going digital seven years ago I had to weigh the savings of film / processing vs the cost of digital. I deceided to buy a $5K D1 Nikon thinking it would save about $30K in film and processing a year. To my surprise within a year it replaced 85%. The savings was roughly $85K that year.

I had to face this question again when I was thinking of buying a $27K back for my Hasselblads. I deceided that the small amount of LF and MF film that I would replace each year wasn't enough to justify a $27 to $30K+ back. I now shoot film as needed and do my owns scans on my Fuji Finescan 5000.
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Old 10-25-2006   #74
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Originally Posted by J. Borger
Am i the only one having the impression this thread, as most M8 or digital related threads, are leading nowhere ..... a complete waste of bandwith and time ... ........i had it for today ..... of to the pub
The responses get too predictable, I'm afraid: "digital sucks! film is dead! Leica needs to be saved! It's just like a digicam! I don't care about this camera, and this is why I need you to read and care why I don't care! Is this the end of film? Is digital the next new thing? German cars. Nikon cameras."

It's like watching an Aaron Spelling production.
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Old 10-26-2006   #75
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I'm not sure if the same logic of saving on film applies to amateur use. This way or that, financially amateur photography is a net loss. Ideal cost saving would be just abandon the hobby altogether.

As for pro-use, people choose whatever they think is apropriate. I've seen people shooting MF Alpa with lightbulbs where you would least expect them. And that Magnum chap doing war reportage with Oly C-7070/8080 digicams (does it make them warzone-proven?)
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Old 10-26-2006   #76
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The responses get too predictable, I'm afraid: "digital sucks! film is dead! Leica needs to be saved! It's just like a digicam! I don't care about this camera, and this is why I need you to read and care why I don't care! Is this the end of film? Is digital the next new thing? German cars. Nikon cameras."
Totally agree - EXACTLY the problem i'm afraid.

For those of us who're in the queue to buy the camera - which is an enormous investment for most of us - it's eternally frustrating that the flow of information about it is ALWAYS and INEVITABLY frustrated by a small but incredibly persistent band of sceptics who have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to add to the debate, other than to mutter a variation of "digital sucks" over and over and over and over and over and over again.

I challenge one of these guys (you know who you are) to point to ONE single thread on this entire M8 forum where no-one jumps in and says "digital sucks" in some way or other, and spoils the whole debate for everyone.

What i don't really get is this: if they hate digital so much - WHY DO THEY SPEND ALL THEIR TIME ON THE DIGITAL FORUMS??
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Old 10-26-2006   #77
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I challenge one of these guys (you know who you are) to point to ONE single thread on this entire M8 forum where no-one jumps in and says "digital sucks" in some way or other, and spoils the whole debate for everyone.
I guess that's a function of the lack of information about the camera. Since there's nothing to talk about, people talk about nothing. In a year or so, all of them/you/us will have seen an M8, you can expect all of this to be over.

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Old 10-26-2006   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-ray
You might find the attached image interesting. It's from a shoot this morning and was from a model shot 1/2 full length (waste up to about six inches above the head. This is a 100% crop from a canon raw file converted in PS CS2 with default sharpening. Data, canon 1DsII, 85mm 1.2 at 8 and ISO 100.
Nice, but the per-pixel quality of the M8 portrait is definitely better, even taking into account the higher close-up.
This is one of the reasons why many photographers who shot wth the 1DsII went DMR (go to Fredmiranda forum).
Even if it has 10 Mp the final quality often exceeds that of the 16.7 Mp 1DsII.
Other factors were higher dynamic range and the quality of lenses.
If you want high resolution with AF or IS lenses and fast shooting Canon is still the king (though Nikon is catching up).

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-ray
The 1DsII is about $1000 more expensive than the M8 but the 1DIIN is just as sharp and produces virtually the same quality image as the 1DsII. I think the 1DIIN is cheaper than the M8.
1DsII is almost 2,000 $ more expensive than the M8.
Sorry but you can't compare the 1DIIN with 1DsII, the latter has much better image quality.
Yes, 1DIIN is cheaper than the M8.
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Old 10-26-2006   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-ray

The 1DsII is about $1000 more expensive than the M8 but the 1DIIN is just as sharp and produces virtually the same quality image as the 1DsII. I think the 1DIIN is cheaper than the M8.
Yes- but can it bake a cake?

Not wanting to be trollish- but is this not turning the thread into a RF vs. SLR debate? That is going about half a century back in time.
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Old 10-26-2006   #80
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It's not a DSLR vs RF debate, just an image quality discussion.

Sorry to disagree that the M8 pixel per pixel quality is better. This is total advertising hype. It might be equal but not better. The lack of AA filter does not necessarily make a better file. My 1D canon had a margial AA filter and was sharp but moire was a big problem when shooting fabrics like fashion. Also I've not found one pro that I've run into that uses the DMR. DMR sales relative to canon or nikon are only a small fraction. I know it's good but to say that 10mp is better is silly. If you're shooting for small repro then it might equal it but when upsampling is needed there is absolutely no substitute for pixels.
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