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Old 08-04-2018   #121
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The specific tricks you mentioned just wouldn't work. Lipstick would mar the strawberries, moving the pips and leaving greasy lumps, and while a hair-drier can be used to dry food, it ain't hot enough to crisp it. For the former it might be possible to use red dye in a perfume spray (though I'm not sure what it would do to the pips) and for the latter a hot-air paint stripper might work, though a blowtorch would almost certainly be better.

As I say, there is some fakery -- salt in beer gives a good head -- but I'd be deeply suspicious of a documentary which used the examples you gave.

Undercooking is normal (you just cook it some more for the hungry assistants afterwards) but one of my favourite memories was making Tequila Sunrises. It took five attempts to make a good one, and neither Frances nor I likes tequila, but one of our assistants did. She was quite happy by the end of the shoot.

The trick, incidentally, is to use a funnel. Start with it touching the bottom of the glass and raise it slowly as you add the grenadine syrup.

Cheers,

R.
Hi Roger;

The head on a glass of beer is caused by bubbles forming around dust particles in the glass. I'm sure you've seen pub workers dunking a glass in water just before pulling the tap ? This is done to clear the dust so a full pint is poured (some or no head). It's also why glasses are stored upside down. To control the head, small amounts of dust are placed at the top portion of the glass (air bulb w/dust), where the head is wanted. Champagne is much more difficult to control. Many takes at a short flash duration are usually required.

The shape of the glass is critical for some beers to foam appropriately. I know more about beer foam than I need to. I'm not a food photographer or much of a beer drinker. As an assistant, I poured a fair amount of beer. One favorite AD drank a lot of beer, as glasses were replaced for fresh pours.

I don't know where these folks get their highly uninformed info on food photography? We both have practical experience in this field and, you must wonder, as i do, where this stuff comes from.

And, we all got some wonderful lunches, made from the food that was photographed.
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Old 08-05-2018   #122
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....One famous NYC food photographer was asked how he always got great food shots..
He replied, I never photograph ugly food.

True but selective; the young ladies I see on TV and the ones I see walking about in town come from two different planets. That doesn't mean they are not real but are they reality?

Anyway, if your ears burn in the next few weeks it will be because I'm comparing pictures on boxes and the food in the box... Oh! the trials of being fair and scientific.

BTW, I live in the UK; the Govt. is very fond of voluntary codes of conduct but not laws. We can't choke big business with red tape etc, etc...

Regards, David
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Old 08-05-2018   #123
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...... Anyway, if your ears burn in the next few weeks it will be because I'm comparing pictures on boxes and the food in the box. ......

I have been comparing advertising photos of various fast food sandwiches here in the US with what we actually get served ever since my sort of wife commented about our huge sandwiches. I had to ask why she thought so since being Cuban thus not allowed to enter the US she had never eaten one. Her idea came from the commercials she sees on bootleg TV down there. I am still waiting to be served a sub at Subway like the one above from their ad.
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Old 08-05-2018   #124
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The trouble with Subway is that, as corporate policy, they act like they don’t even know how to duplicate the sandwiches in the photos. No matter what sandwich you request, they ask you what you want to be placed inside the bread. If you tell them you have no idea, since you are paying for the privilege to not be the chef, and just ask them to “just make it like the picture”, they will stand there till hell freezes over until you tell them what ingredients you want in the sandwich. I don’t even know why they display photos of various sandwiches, since no patron has likely ever been able to duplicate one outside of blind luck.
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Old 08-05-2018   #125
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...I don't know where these folks get their highly uninformed info on food photography? ...

It's quite simple really. I look at the pictures on display and on the box and I look at the food.

But I am talking about a lot of different photographers and a lot of different foods. Not one studio; it would be nice if the photo's were all taken of food as it comes to the customer and not specially baked etc, etc. We'll have to start a poll...

Regards, David
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Old 08-05-2018   #126
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It's quite simple really. I look at the pictures on display and on the box and I look at the food.

But I am talking about a lot of different photographers and a lot of different foods. Not one studio; it would be nice if the photo's were all taken of food as it comes to the customer and not specially baked etc, etc. We'll have to start a poll...

Regards, David
None of the pizzas I order look anything like the pictures on the flyer - but they (usually) taste better!

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Old 08-05-2018   #127
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One famous NYC food photographer was asked how he always got great food shots..
He replied, I never photograph ugly food.
After a establishing rapport with each client that hired me, I would say, kidding, “if you don’t like the photographs I make today, you will in ten years!”
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Old 08-05-2018   #128
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None of the pizzas I order look anything like the pictures on the flyer - but they (usually) taste better!

John
Hi John;

I'm sure that's the case. But, if you want your pizza to look like the one pictured, begin with duplicating the lighting used. As a "photographer" I'm sure you're aware of a possible difference?

I can only speak from my personal experience, the food I've seen photographed was (by law) exactly what was sold to customers. But, as you would expect in a burger photo, a crushed or imperfect bun won't be used. Packages of buns are searched for ones that look good. This stuff is pretty common. In the case of beer and wine (I was around for a lot) the contents were exactly as sold. But, a case might be searched for a label that has no Surface Scrapes or a bottle that had the cork removed with little damage, if the cork is in the photo. Cutting the cork skirt properly, without damage is important. It might take several bottles to get a good cut. You may find this kind of thing "cheating", i don't know. But, in my experience, it's what happens.

In photographing chicken for a large, locally famous brand, a big batch of cut chicken parts were delivered. The client suggested that if we ran out of a specific part, to just go to a local grocer and buy a pack of whatever was needed.

In California, state and federal (FDA) laws are strict. No one that i know fudges on any of this stuff. No one wants to end up in court.

In the case of Domino's, the pies often went from the cine set (all film, they spend the $) to a still set, where the pies were photographed on 8 x10 for package delivery / Ad shots. Then they were eaten by any of the crew who still had an appetite for pizza. I don't buy much pizza, but, i don't think the stuff delivered differs greatly from what we photographed. The ingredient boxes in our refrigerators were the same as delivered to the Domino's stores.
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Old 08-05-2018   #129
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it would be nice if the photo's were all taken of food as it comes to the customer and not specially baked etc, etc.

Regards, David
Oh, but you can see a lot of "food as it comes" - check variuos FB photos, curtesy of the smartphone...
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Old 08-05-2018   #130
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I have been comparing advertising photos of various fast food sandwiches here in the US with what we actually get served ever since my sort of wife commented about our huge sandwiches. I had to ask why she thought so since being Cuban thus not allowed to enter the US she had never eaten one. Her idea came from the commercials she sees on bootleg TV down there. I am still waiting to be served a sub at Subway like the one above from their ad.
Bob, in your attached photo, I'm guessing that, all the ingredients were placed so that the photo would depict the contents? Eating a sandwich that was made that way would be difficult. It looks like the inner stuff would fall out. If the sandwich was photographed as delivered to a customer, the viewer would have little idea as to the contents?

I do eat Subway stuff. Never did any work for them (I'm not a food photographer). The quality varies a bit from franchise to franchise but, I've never had a bad experience. Everything was always fresh. The variances were do to employee behavior.. The person making the sandwich.
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Old 08-05-2018   #131
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True but selective; the young ladies I see on TV and the ones I see walking about in town come from two different planets. That doesn't mean they are not real but are they reality?

Anyway, if your ears burn in the next few weeks it will be because I'm comparing pictures on boxes and the food in the box... Oh! the trials of being fair and scientific.

BTW, I live in the UK; the Govt. is very fond of voluntary codes of conduct but not laws. We can't choke big business with red tape etc, etc...

Regards, David
David, I have no idea what goes on re food photos in the UK. I've had some experience with French products sold in the US. The French, in my experience, want their food represented accurately.

I can only suggest that, if you think the food you might purchase isn't as advertised, avoid it. I don't eat a lot of fast or packaged foods. I prefer simple home cooked stuff made with good ingredients. I learned this from working with many food stylists and chefs over the years.

And, i can only speak from what I've seen done in Northern California. It's really easy to buy high quality meat and produce locally. The only places better, that i know of, are in France and Italy.
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Old 08-05-2018   #132
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There is no turning back ... Life goes on
One either whines or rejoices

Does it really matter today what You shoot with

With such an abundance of photos everywhere
it makes me now relish even more a 'Good Photo' when I find one
Dear Helen,

No. There is a third option.

Ignore.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-05-2018   #133
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I don't know where you get your info, but I've never seen anything like the things you mention done for a photo. I worked as an assistant to Irving Penn's former studio manager, who shot a lot of food. I did things like sort corn flakes, looking for good ones .. No cracks or chips etc. But, nothing that was featured was phony. We used very expensive plastic ice cubes as, real ones melt and change quickly. But, no phony food.

There are strict laws (FDA) preventing this kind of thing. And frankly, good fresh food subjects photograph best.

One famous NYC food photographer was asked how he always got great food shots..
He replied, I never photograph ugly food.
Food is an exception, though. After we'd spent hours trying to find a pill that wouldn't look like the surface of the moon when photographed and reproduced in a poster, the client commissioned a plaster pill a foot across.

The wastage in food photography is impressive. For my book Mexican Cookery we bought 10 kg (22 lb) of beef. Well, it wasn't exactly wasted. At least 90% was eaten. And I've already told the story of the Tequila Sunrises.

Salt works with beer. Sure, it's undrinkable afterwards, but then, Coors is undrinkable beforehand.

But as you say, you need to have done it in order to begin to understand it.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 08-05-2018   #134
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David, I have no idea what goes on re food photos in the UK. I've had some experience with French products sold in the US. The French, in my experience, want their food represented accurately.

I can only suggest that, if you think the food you might purchase isn't as advertised, avoid it. I don't eat a lot of fast or packaged foods. I prefer simple home cooked stuff made with good ingredients. I learned this from working with many food stylists and chefs over the years.

And, i can only speak from what I've seen done in Northern California. It's really easy to buy high quality meat and produce locally. The only places better, that i know of, are in France and Italy.

Hi,


My mental yardstick for a lot of food is based on experience in France when visiting friends and relatives or even at festivals (not often though). Others bring home cheap and nasty wine I bring home cheese and regional specialities in tins. And I stock up again when they visit us. We also have several chefs in the family and friends circle & a vineyard owner and my expectations are probably the same as yours; plus I hear the occasional (entertaining) rant from them about food quality in the UK...

In the UK I think so called austerity has meant that standards have dropped to keep prices stable and things that would have been rejected not so long ago get sold. I can think of several shops where I could shut my eyes when picking something and be pleased but these days I look carefully and sometimes give up. And a lot of the better quality and dearer stuff has disappeared from the shops.

Shopping these days involves a lot of different shops and a good deal more driving to get things that were once available locally.


Regards, David
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Old 08-05-2018   #135
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Wenders is right, and I want him to be right. Phone photography is 0.001 photography, the rest is Casual Image Taking or what ever. Photography is not just clicking a button or a screen, there should be a far more involved creative process.
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Old 08-05-2018   #136
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Wenders is right, and I want him to be right. Phone photography is 0.001 photography, the rest is Casual Image Taking or what ever. Photography is not just clicking a button or a screen, there should be a far more involved creative process.
I'm afraid we're in the minority on this topic Teddy. The photo world has changed. It has been dumbed down like many other things.

The local photo art students claim my photo archives belong to them as well as me. I'm thinking of inviting the group of the most radical over to the studio, to watch me set fire to a bunch of old chromes and negatives.

pkr
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Old 08-05-2018   #137
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The way I see it, the phone camera is the modern equivalent of the old Kodak Brownie camera. It's the latest snapshot camera, used much the same way as the old Kodaks of yore. This casual approach to photography, primarily for personal documentation, has always paralleled serious photography.


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Old 08-06-2018   #138
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Wenders is right, and I want him to be right. Phone photography is 0.001 photography, the rest is Casual Image Taking or what ever. Photography is not just clicking a button or a screen, there should be a far more involved creative process.
Actually you are wrong a snapshot is just as much photography as a Photograph made in a Studio Setting with dozens of assistants. In fact since the vast majority of photographs are snapshots, they are actually what is considered photography today. A small minority thinks otherwise but even Museum curators have discovered the snapshot as an art form.
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Old 08-06-2018   #139
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Photography is photography in the same way that driving a car is driving a car; either going on holiday, going to work or doing some shopping.

I mostly use my camera as a notebook and that's more real than some artificial set-up that only exists in a studio.

It's like I said about girls on TV in post 122 (scroll up a bit).

Regards, David
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Old 08-06-2018   #140
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Wenders is right, and I want him to be right. Phone photography is 0.001 photography, the rest is Casual Image Taking or what ever. Photography is not just clicking a button or a screen, there should be a far more involved creative process.
Personally I fully agree with you.
Of course, being in a free world when the majority thinks and acts differently they can do it.

Again, it's not the tool, we have seen many good works made with Holga (David Burnett here) , Diana (IOWA by Nancy Rexroth) and smartphones.

It's the way the tool is used. Times snapshots had a cost to see them you need at least to develop the film and print them. Therefore a minimum of thinking before taking the shot was normal, is it worthwhile to take this? Maybe it's not art but good for the family album.

Now apart the cost of the smartphone apparently there are no cost involved, you can share without a computer...and this bring a proliferation of images.

I feel ambivalent with this democratization of photography, of course it's good everyone can take a photo, make a snap for its family album, record a moment of a journey or of a party. This is the good side. And most of these photos have a meaning. At least for the ones involved, friends and relatives.

What gives me difficulties is to see people just pushing the button, publishing on a social and proclaiming to be a photographer. And this happens not only among smartphone users...

Anyway Helen and Roger are correct, we cannot stop the trend but we can learn to live with it. And trying to make better photo to differentiate.

Just my thinking...

robert
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Old 08-06-2018   #141
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A small minority thinks otherwise but even Museum curators have discovered the snapshot as an art form.
Snapshots are not art form themselves, they become art form when a curator goes through them and assemble them in a body of work, which represent the way photography is conceived by a majority od people.

A few years ago some of these exposition were present in Arles. I enjoyed (not so much) the exposition but ani single snaps was just a snap !

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Old 08-06-2018   #142
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It's the way the tool is used. Therefore a minimum of thinking before taking the shot was normal, is it worthwhile to take this? Maybe it's not art but good for the family album.
From what I remember, most of people using Instamatic cameras or 110 cameras or Polaroid cameras when I was a kid didn't really have that "minimum of thinking". At family or business parties when everyone had got a bit drunk the Polaroid cameras or their Kodak siblings fired like thunder.

Of course we cannot see those pictures any longer now so we have that feeling they weren't that numerous, but they were. The proliferation of images existed before the social networks and the smartphones.

As for family albums : there were family albums and family albums... from something really good to something plain ugly.

On the other hand, how many great photos haven't been taken - and how many beautiful things have been lost in the nirvana forever - because people felt reluctant to "waste film" ane never pressed the shutter button ?

On the third hand , people who tell about the proliferation of images now seem to make images proliferate too :

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/for...hreadid=165813

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Old 08-06-2018   #143
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It’s nice to have different points of view and to be able to express them :-)

Family albums are always interesting, when I go through my father’s in law album, the photos taken with a basic 127 camera tell a story, the family story which makes them interesting.

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Old 08-06-2018   #144
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From Mike Johnson at TOP, this morning..

"I assume most people around here are visual, and like visual representations of information. I know I do. You might be interested in a recent infographic at NYT—it creates a bucket for Apple's trillion-dollar net worth and then drops in various combinations of various companies until it's full. It's very interesting to see visually the relative sizes of all sorts of companies, well-known and little-known. I searched in vain for camera companies, although that doesn't mean they're not in there. Maybe they weren't big enough to be useful. I am definitely not schooled in business or qualified to write about it, but as near as I can tell, I believe the total global digital camera market revenue is about US$20 billion, or roughly 1/50th the size of Apple.
That 50X behemoth is squatting pretty heavily on the camera industry. As one analysis puts it, mildly, "The global digital camera market is negatively influenced by the availability of superior camera functions on smartphones." (And then adds, rather startlingly: "apart from this, minimal customer engagement by the camera manufacturers and complex specifications have diminished the growth prospects of the market." But that's another discussion for another post.) I've always been curious about what's going to kill TOP, and it appears it might be something simple: I can't sell iPhones. If that's it, well, that's the way the cookie crumbles."

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Old 08-06-2018   #145
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Thanks for that... I hadn't seen it.
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Old 08-06-2018   #146
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"If you tell them you have no idea, since you are paying for the privilege to not be the chef, and just ask them to “just make it like the picture”, they will stand there till hell freezes over until you tell them what ingredients you want in the sandwich".

Larry, some people have food allergies. They need to know exactly what is in food due to medical conditions.
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Old 08-06-2018   #147
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I honestly do not see where a photo needs to be carefully thought out and well crafted to qualify as being something we would call a photograph. If it looks like a duck, etc, regardless of what it was taken with or how it was taken.

I made the following image of my girlfriend June w/ a smart phone, and it was spur of the moment with natural light from a small window. Not posed at all. It's as good a portrait as I have ever taken regardless of the equipment.

The other shot below was taken w/ the same phone when I was fooling around with it and accidentally took a photograph, and that's what it was, a photograph, of my rumpled bed sheets, a pair of shorts (top left corner), and my leg (bottom right corner). I did nothing but change the hues in photoshop, and made several versions of the shot. Here's two. I love the image, as does everyone I have shown it to, and my plan is to turn it into a large painting and do a series of them in different hues and sizes.

The last link is of a large charcoal drawing I made of June from a photo that I took......on my smart phone. I like the phone, and it takes pretty nice photos. It's not about the tool, it's about the image.

Many years ago a realistic artist named Franz Kline was using a projector to throw up a little line drawing onto his canvas so he could make a painting from it, and accidentally projected just a teeny corner of his sketch. He was so intrigued by it that he gave up realism on the spot and became one of the legendary leaders of the American Abstract Expressionist movement. Inspiration comes in a flash and cannot be premeditated or planned out. Or, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Emerson.







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Old 08-06-2018   #148
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Two things, Darlings,

1. Bravo, Steve M. Bravo!
2. I wish Nikon would hire from Apple the person who designs the JPG engine for the iPhone.

Ciao!
S
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Old 08-07-2018   #149
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Now here's a funny thing; years ago (mid 90's) when APS appeared it made photography easier for lots of people who had not considered buying a camera because of the mystic etc round them.

Some of the APS cameras were brilliant; the Contax Tix, Rollei Nano etc but no one threw away their Leica and gave up photography in disgust; it didn't happen in the 80's either when the Olympus XA appeared. Nor in the 70's when the ................ (fill in as appropriate) appeared.

So why all the fuss now?

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Old 08-07-2018   #150
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"If you tell them you have no idea, since you are paying for the privilege to not be the chef, and just ask them to “just make it like the picture”, they will stand there till hell freezes over until you tell them what ingredients you want in the sandwich".

Larry, some people have food allergies. They need to know exactly what is in food due to medical conditions.
Subway does not act this way because of food allergies. Just ask an employee why. I have. People with known food allergies order accordingly, no matter where they eat.
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Old 08-07-2018   #151
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Thread now has more views than his last movie.
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Old 08-07-2018   #152
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Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Now here's a funny thing; years ago (mid 90's) when APS appeared it made photography easier for lots of people who had not considered buying a camera because of the mystic etc round them.

Some of the APS cameras were brilliant; the Contax Tix, Rollei Nano etc but no one threw away their Leica and gave up photography in disgust; it didn't happen in the 80's either when the Olympus XA appeared. Nor in the 70's when the ................ (fill in as appropriate) appeared.

So why all the fuss now?

Regards, David
David;

Again, I don't think this about the device, the camera phone, but the attitude / mind-set of the "new photographer", who often uses a camera phone to make photos.

I can remember reading, as I was sorting through years of work for archiving that, Ansel Adams said, he would be very happy if he made one good photo a month. That's twelve good ones in a year, for someone who photographed constantly. Richard Avedon said, if he made ten good photos in a year that he was happy with, that would be a good year. So, for those two notable photographers, that's about 500-600 good ones in a lifetime.

Thomas Hawk, a "new photographer" who defines himself as a great photographer, plans to "publish" one million of his best, before he's dead.

Notice any difference?

From Thomas Hawk's site:

"Henri Cartier-Bresson once said that your first 10,000 photos are your worst..."

Snip

"I would change Cartier-Bresson’s quote in the modern digital age to say that your first 100,000 photos are your worst. Maybe it really ought to be your first 1,000,000 photos are your worst."

Thomas Hawk

http://thomashawk.com/category/thomas-hawk

https://chrisguillebeau.com/the-ques...h-thomas-hawk/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thomashawk/

https://500px.com/thomashawk

pkr
.
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Old 08-07-2018   #153
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Originally Posted by DominikDUK View Post
A small minority thinks otherwise but even Museum curators have discovered the snapshot as an art form.
The small minority is that 0.001 percent. And 0.0001 percent of these artistic people get to make a curated piece of works. I have seen some great iPhone photographers that make my photography a shame - but these are exceptional people - I think anyway.
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Old 08-07-2018   #154
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Originally Posted by PKR View Post
I'm thinking of inviting the group of the most radical over to the studio, to watch me set fire to a bunch of old chromes and negatives.

pkr
Wow PKR, this is a radical move. But I have felt like this sometimes. It's part of that artistic character in a person. Seems like you are one of those. But like someone said on this thread - we must learn to live with it... This - democratisation of photography...
... What's that quote from that movie... "Do not go gentle into that good night; Old age should burn and rave at close of day. ..." "... Do not go gentle into that good night..."
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Old 08-07-2018   #155
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Originally Posted by robert blu View Post
...we cannot stop the trend but we can learn to live with it. And trying to make better photo to differentiate.

robert
I like this Robert, thanks for the heads up.
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Old 08-07-2018   #156
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Originally Posted by PKR View Post
David;

Again, I don't think this about the device, the camera phone, but the attitude / mind-set of the "new photographer", who often uses a camera phone to make photos...
Hi,

I don't think it either; I don't think the equipment used has much to do with it and I don't care how many million or billion photographers there are out there. I shall go on making my photos the way I always have and ignoring them.

But, I do think that all those 'phones will make a few people wonder if there's a better or easier way of doing it and they might just come over to a digital camera for the advantages or challenge.

As for the mindset, I think the eye for the picture is important and the rest is lack of it.

Regards, David
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Old 08-07-2018   #157
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Originally Posted by teddy View Post
Wow PKR, this is a radical move. But I have felt like this sometimes. It's part of that artistic character in a person. Seems like you are one of those. But like someone said on this thread - we must learn to live with it... This - democratisation of photography...
... What's that quote from that movie... "Do not go gentle into that good night; Old age should burn and rave at close of day. ..." "... Do not go gentle into that good night..."
The local photo kiddies view "democratization" as, their right to use any of my work as they please. A couple of years back, I was met with a group of photo students "demanding" access to larger files of my images, they lifted off the web. The lifted files weren't big enough to suit their needs.

"From my experience with photo students ripping my images for "class projects" ..
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/for...41#post2752341
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Old 08-09-2018   #158
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This Milky Way Photo Was Shot on a Phone

The Huawei P20 Pro smartphone boasts the highest-scoring smartphone camera ever evaluated by DxOMark, sitting head and shoulders above its competition with an overall score of 109. Here’s how good the on-board Leica triple-camera system is: you can shoot beautiful shots of the Milky Way in the starry night sky.
The Huawei P20 Pro smartphone boasts the highest-scoring smartphone camera ever evaluated by DxOMark, sitting head and shoulders above its competition with an overall score of 109. Here’s how good the on-board Leica triple-camera system is: you can shoot beautiful shots of the Milky Way in the starry night sky.

https://petapixel.com/2018/08/08/thi...ro-smartphone/
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