water marks on negatives
Old 4 Weeks Ago   #1
bert26
Registered User
 
bert26 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 126
water marks on negatives

I recently got back into developing my own film and every roll so far has ended up with water marks and I'm not quite sure why.

I'm using HC-110 one shot with distilled water. I'm reusing the fix and stop which are mixed with tap water. My 10 minute rinse is with tap water and my final rinse is with distilled water and Photo-Flo 200. I live in Portland, OR so I thought the tap water here would be okay but maybe it's hard? Should I remake the fix and stop with distilled water? Is there a way to do the 10 minute rinse with distilled water? Just agitation instead of leaving the faucet running?

And lastly, could it be due to my distilled water/Photo-Flo dilution? I simply fill my Paterson tank (fits 2 rolls) just a bit above the top reel and then put the smallest amount of Photo-Flo that I can in the cap and dump it into the tank. Should I be anal about keeping it exactly at 1:200? I only have 50/100/250ml beakers that I use for measuring chemicals but I don't have anything tiny like a 5ml beaker. Guess I should buy one? Also, do you just let the tank sit there with the water/photo-flo or do you spin the reels around with the little black plastic stick whatever the hell it's called.

After the rinse I squeegee the negatives with my index/middle fingers and let them hang dry overnight in my closet.
  Reply With Quote

Old 4 Weeks Ago   #2
CharlesDAMorgan
Registered User
 
CharlesDAMorgan is offline
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Plymouth, UK
Posts: 1,349
The Ilford water saving method of rinsing is worth a try.

Also, ensure your photo flo is thoroughly rinsed off - I've moved to a soft water area and was still getting marks, which turned out to be the Photo Flo needing a lot more rinsing (I've also cut that by a third). I'm not so bothered about agitating the Flo, but the rinsing is really vigorous!

Do ensure the fix and stop are made with distilled.
__________________
De-gassing progress:

Leica M2, Nikon D700, Bronica RF645, Leica CL, Summicron 40mm, Rolleicord Va, Hasselblad 500 CM Zeiss Planar, Leica 50mm Summicron V3, Hasselblad PME51 metered prism, Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta 534/16 & Ensign 820 Special - all gone.
  Reply With Quote

Old 4 Weeks Ago   #3
Samuel D
Registered User
 
Samuel D is offline
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 53
You might be using too much Photo-Flo. If anything Iíd try a little less than the specified strength. That is, dilute it more. The accuracy of eyeballing it in the cap depends on your eyeball calibration. If youíre running into trouble, maybe thatís off.

Try hanging the film diagonally so that small quantities of remaining water donít run down the whole film but diagonally across one frame and onto the rebate, hopefully leaving their drying marks there rather than on the image.

A squeegee might work better too. Take great care to clean it before use under warm water.
  Reply With Quote

Old 4 Weeks Ago   #4
dickgillberg
Registered User
 
dickgillberg is offline
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 17
Thanks for the question, I also have this problem. Sorry if I hijack it. I live in a soft water region and I get watermarks. Don't use distilled water for my chemicals, but use photo flo just brief before I take my films out to dry. Should I rinse of all the photo flo throuhly many minutes? Why use it at all then?
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #5
Freakscene
Deregistered user
 
Freakscene's Avatar
 
Freakscene is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: In exile
Posts: 1,701
Don’t rinse the Photo-flo, there is no point using it if you do that.

Try Photo-flo at 1:400. If I use it at 1:200 as recommended I get marks. Higher dilution than 1:400 (including the homeopathic ‘one drop’ recommended by some) the water doesn’t sheet off properly and I get other problems.

The water in Rochester must be different to everywhere I have ever worked. I don’t doubt that Kodak’s recommendations work for them, but I do believe what I have observed. Repeatability is a general problem in all technical endeavours. Note here: https://rangefinderforum.com/forums/...ad.php?t=48684 that several members mention 1:400 or ‘half strength’.

Marty
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #6
retinax
Registered User
 
retinax is online now
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,091
Try it with the recommended dilution of photo-flo, that could solve it. Use a syringe to measure. Some also report good results with only a drop of the stuff. Others have good results with a rinse with distilled water only, but doesn't work for me. Do NOT rinse off the photo-flo, that's a misunderstanding of its purpose. I don't think the fix or anything have any impact, they are long washed off at the point of drying. You can reuse the photo-flo solution a few times if you are certain you have washed thoroughly before.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #7
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
 
Rob-F's Avatar
 
Rob-F is offline
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Show Me state
Age: 79
Posts: 6,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by bert26 View Post
After the rinse I squeegee the negatives with my index/middle fingers and let them hang dry overnight in my closet.
I do everything as you have described, except that I remove excess water using two ordinary kitchen sponges. I put one behind the film and one in front. I hold them against the film with the minimum pressure to prevent them from falling. This avoids scratching the film. They barely touch the film. One swipe down the whole length and that's it. I keep the sponges moist with Photo-flo solution, and store them in a ziplock bag between uses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
Donít rinse the Photo-flo, there is no point using it if you do that.Marty
That's for sure. I simply use the absolute minimum Photo-flo I can put into the cap. I aim for one drop, but usually get a bit more.

I have never gotten a water mark. I've never gotten a scratch, either. I don't know just how soft our water is. I've been in St. Louis the past 50+ years, where the water is good enough to make Budweiser and Michelob, though. Before that, I lived in Las Vegas. I didn't get water marks there, either. So I think the combination of using minimum Photo-Flo plus wiping with sponges is good. Just keep the wiping to the very lightest pressure, Keep the sponges soft with the Photo-flo solution, and never use them for anything else.
__________________
May the light be with you.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #8
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,946
I use cap or half for 1L. I agitate. I remove it after by two fingers method.
I use same mix for months.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #9
presspass
filmshooter
 
presspass is offline
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,246
I had that problem for years until I came across an idea someone posted. I don't remember who posted it but it works. Put isopropyl alcohol in the final rinse. 100 ml 91 percent alcohol to 1 liter of distilled water, one drop of LFN, and agitate for a minute. No wiping needed, dries in about an hour, and absolutely no water marks.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #10
jmpgino
Registered User
 
jmpgino is offline
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ga U.S.A now, England before.
Posts: 369
Buy distilled water. Cheap at Walmart. I use it for developing and fixing. I then use tap water to wash the film. Then Photo Flo in distilled water, I give the tank a good shake and turning for a good minute before draining. Stopped using fingers and bought the rubber squeegeeing toy, make sure it has been soaked in water before use. I hang film on shower rail and put a small heater in the room, fan on high to move the air in the room.
Drying the film that way has solved my problems with streaks.
  Reply With Quote

Marks on dried film
Old 3 Weeks Ago   #11
randy stewart
Registered User
 
randy stewart is offline
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 120
Marks on dried film

If you are using distilled (or deionized) water, then you are not getting hard water deposits. Using too much Photoflo can leave marks and stall drying. I'll second prior remarks to increase your Photoflo dilution to 1:400 (half the Kodak recommended amount). No one can accurately eyball such dilutions, particularly given that you are probably setting up 300-500ml of working solution. Get a small unit hypodermic with needle removed to make an accurate dilution. If you mix Photoflo by eyeball, you will almost certainly use too much stock and risk spots.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #12
bert26
Registered User
 
bert26 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by randy stewart View Post
If you are using distilled (or deionized) water, then you are not getting hard water deposits. Using too much Photoflo can leave marks and stall drying. I'll second prior remarks to increase your Photoflo dilution to 1:400 (half the Kodak recommended amount). No one can accurately eyball such dilutions, particularly given that you are probably setting up 300-500ml of working solution. Get a small unit hypodermic with needle removed to make an accurate dilution. If you mix Photoflo by eyeball, you will almost certainly use too much stock and risk spots.
Right on. Just bought a 5ml fluid syringe. Thanks everyone for all of the help!
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #13
maddoc
... likes film.
 
maddoc's Avatar
 
maddoc is offline
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 名古屋
Age: 54
Posts: 7,326
No rinsing after the photoflo or any other wetting agent, don`t touch the surface of the film with anything after the photoflo. Dilute the photoflo solution more, use maybe 10 drops for your tank volume.


Finally, NEVER put any plastic reel into a wetting agent (photoflo) solution. The wetting agent builds up a very difficult to remove film onto the plastic of the reels which makes film loading more and more difficult over time. If using plastic reels than remove the film from the reel before soaking it in any wetting agent inside a separate plastic container. This was also the official recommendation from JOBO.
__________________
- Gabor

flickr
pBase
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #14
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
 
Rob-F's Avatar
 
Rob-F is offline
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Show Me state
Age: 79
Posts: 6,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by randy stewart View Post
Get a small unit hypodermic with needle removed to make an accurate dilution. If you mix Photoflo by eyeball, you will almost certainly use too much stock and risk spots.
I do just eyeball the photo-flo, never having thought of using a syringe. But I use a syringe for transferring ink into my fountain pens. I leave the needle in place, it's much easier. I think I'll start using one for Photo-flo. Or should I? After doing it by eye for the last 60+ years, maybe I should leave well enough alone . . .
__________________
May the light be with you.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #15
newsgrunt
Registered User
 
newsgrunt's Avatar
 
newsgrunt is offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob-F View Post
...But I use a syringe for transferring ink into my fountain pens..
I have syringes for this as well but still find converters so much more convenient. Lamy pens, fine and extra fine nibs.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #16
Ambro51
Collector/Photographer
 
Ambro51's Avatar
 
Ambro51 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 226
I take a big stainless steel bowl with room temp water, put in about three drops of dishwashing soap, swirl it around and then take the rinsed film out of the tank and off the reel. Dip in one end and then just let it bow down and a quick run through.
__________________
Happily Collecting and Shooting Cameras most folks never heard of.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #17
v0sh
Registered User
 
v0sh's Avatar
 
v0sh is offline
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 103
I use tap water for every step during development. When I'm done, I hang my film over the bathtub and spray it several times with distilled water. Giving it a good spray removes any remains of the tap water and I get no marks at all.
__________________
Cheers
Bastian

Instagram
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #18
bert26
Registered User
 
bert26 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by randy stewart View Post
If you are using distilled (or deionized) water, then you are not getting hard water deposits. Using too much Photoflo can leave marks and stall drying. I'll second prior remarks to increase your Photoflo dilution to 1:400 (half the Kodak recommended amount). No one can accurately eyball such dilutions, particularly given that you are probably setting up 300-500ml of working solution. Get a small unit hypodermic with needle removed to make an accurate dilution. If you mix Photoflo by eyeball, you will almost certainly use too much stock and risk spots.
Looking at this syringe, even 1ml looks like A LOT. And since 1:200 is 1.5ml photo-flo and 300ml water, I'll be using 3ml photo-flo to 600ml water since I'm doing two rolls at once. Just confused because I've been told a bottle of photo-flo should last a lifetime. I use Photo-Flo one shot and 3ml of this stuff is a ton. Umm. Can someone tell me like what the ratio should be for a Paterson tank with 2 rolls? ml to ml? 1.5 to 300/3 to 600 cannot be right.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #19
bert26
Registered User
 
bert26 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 126
Oh and this is the one I bought, seems legit..

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #20
giganova
Registered User
 
giganova is offline
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,527
I never used distilled water, I never used PhotoFlo and never had water marks on my negatives, ever. I put one drop of liquid soap into the tank, move the rolls of film up & down a few times to make sure that the water tension of the water is low everywhere (that's all there is to PhotoFlo or liquid soap: decrease the water tension). Then I use a large kitchen sponge where I cut a slit in it and slide the negatives through that slit. Voila, perfect negatives.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #21
giganova
Registered User
 
giganova is offline
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,527
Quote:
Originally Posted by bert26 View Post
After the rinse I squeegee the negatives with my index/middle fingers
That's asking for trouble: Your skin is harder than wet emulsion and can easily scratch your film. I suggest to cut a slit into a kitchen sponge, pre-wet the sponge (so it gets soft) and slide the sponge down the negatives through the slit.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #22
bert26
Registered User
 
bert26 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 126
Maybe I'll give that a try. What about a Paterson squeegee? Or what about just not squeegeeing at all? I took a darkroom course in college years ago and I remember the instructor telling us to hang the rolls immediately after the wetting agent process..

Also, I've been hanging in my closet but perhaps I should be doing that in my bathroom instead?
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #23
TenEleven
Registered User
 
TenEleven's Avatar
 
TenEleven is offline
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 83
Don't squeegee unless you want scratches, yes it's usually fine with a new sponge until a tiny bit of debris gets caught in the squeegee and the one picture you really wanted is ruined.

Photoflo, then hang as others have repeatedly said. Then also avoid going into that room unnecessarily. Avoid opening and closing doors to that room unnecessarily to avoid stirring up dust

And yes hang the negatives in the bathroom. If you're concerned about dust you can quickly steam up the room with the shower then hang the negatives.
__________________
Manuel
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #24
Freakscene
Deregistered user
 
Freakscene's Avatar
 
Freakscene is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: In exile
Posts: 1,701
Quote:
Originally Posted by bert26 View Post
I've been told a bottle of photo-flo should last a lifetime.
You were told something that is incorrect.

At the lab where I worked we used a 1L container of Photo-flo 2100 (1:2100 is the recommended dilution - I don't know if Kodak makes that anymore) every 6-12 months and the longest a 5L working batch of wetting agent was used for was 5 days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bert26 View Post
I use Photo-Flo one shot and 3ml of this stuff is a ton. Umm. Can someone tell me like what the ratio should be for a Paterson tank with 2 rolls? ml to ml? 1.5 to 300/3 to 600 cannot be right.
The tank is irrelevant. Kodak recommends 1:200, I and many others find this causes marks and that 1:400 is better. 1:200 is 3mL of Photo-flo in a 600mL tank. 1:400 is 1.5 mL of Photo-flo in a 600mL tank.

My method is to wash the film, then soak in filtered distilled water, place into 1:400 Photo-flo, remove and hang to dry.

The only reason to use it one shot is if you have problems keeping it clean. Kodak says to use it one shot for absolutely best results. But if you keep a lid on it to prevent dust etc getting in, it is good until - according to Kodak - it "begins to bead, streak or leave scum" on the film or to change the solution "once per week". Kodak also notes that "Formation of slime on tank walls, and/or evidence of biological growth in the tank" also as indications to change the solution.

You don't say where you are located geographically. At Freestyle, let's say for example, a 473mL bottle of Photo-flo 200 costs $US9. Even if you use it as Kodak recommends, and one shot, you can treat 315 rolls of film with that 473mL bottle. That is three cents a roll. In the context of shooting film, it's nothing.

Marty
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #25
giganova
Registered User
 
giganova is offline
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,527
These sponges are great, super soft and no hard edges. Just make a cut along the long side:

https://www.amazon.com/Chuangdi-Scru...07JCS7613?th=1

  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #26
bert26
Registered User
 
bert26 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
You were told something that is incorrect.

At the lab where I worked we used a 1L container of Photo-flo 2100 (1:2100 is the recommended dilution - I don't know if Kodak makes that anymore) every 6-12 months and the longest a 5L working batch of wetting agent was used for was 5 days.



The tank is irrelevant. Kodak recommends 1:200, I and many others find this causes marks and that 1:400 is better. 1:200 is 3mL of Photo-flo in a 600mL tank. 1:400 is 1.5 mL of Photo-flo in a 600mL tank.

My method is to wash the film, then soak in filtered distilled water, place into 1:400 Photo-flo, remove and hang to dry.

The only reason to use it one shot is if you have problems keeping it clean. Kodak says to use it one shot for absolutely best results. But if you keep a lid on it to prevent dust etc getting in, it is good until - according to Kodak - it "begins to bead, streak or leave scum" on the film or to change the solution "once per week". Kodak also notes that "Formation of slime on tank walls, and/or evidence of biological growth in the tank" also as indications to change the solution.

You don't say where you are located geographically. At Freestyle, let's say for example, a 473mL bottle of Photo-flo 200 costs $US9. Even if you use it as Kodak recommends, and one shot, you can treat 315 rolls of film with that 473mL bottle. That is three cents a roll. In the context of shooting film, it's nothing.

Marty
I know the cost of using it one shot is nothing, I wasn't complaining, I was just wondering how the hell someone could think a bottle would last a lifetime.

Did a 10 minute wash, followed with 1.5ml photo-flo to 600ml distilled water rinse for a minute, and then hung to dry without squeegeeing. Appears to be much worse than before. Guess I'll rewash with 1:400 again but try squeegeeing with a sponge.

Oh and I'm in Portland, OR so I'm assuming tap water is okay. But I don't use it with the developer or photo-flo.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #27
vitaly66
Registered User
 
vitaly66 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 79
1. Do not use photo-flo, period.

2. Do not squeegee ever, period.

3. Thoroughly mix 5 - 10ml of isopropyl alcohol to 1 litre distilled water in a separate container. Use this as your final rinse after wash. Do not reuse. Do not rinse again.

4. Hang film to dry in a drying tent. I made mine out of a sweater bag, about 4 feet long, designed with hooks to hang vertically on a bar in a closet, very cheap, zipper on the front, just remove the cardboard shelves, add some binder clips at the top, good to go. Don't actually hang the film in your clothes closet where it is filled with dust and particulates, I use the shower curtain bar in my bathroom.

5. Allow to dry at least 24 hours, resist the urge to peek or touch or unzip the bag.

6. Enjoy clean, dry, dust-free negatives.

Note: as you've already been using photo-flo, make sure you thoroughly wash all of your tanks and reels before your next use, scrubbing with a toothbrush or scotch-brite pad. Get rid of that photo-flo, every last trace. It is nasty.

Failure to follow these instructions exactly will void the warranty with which they are supplied.
__________________
Vitaly
incidence: a journal of light falling
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:59.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.