Old 4 Weeks Ago   #161
Emile de Leon
Registered User
 
Emile de Leon is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,107
They should develop a sensor..that eliminates the blown highlight issues..as well as the empty low values..

In recording music files..they now have 32 bit float recording..that takes 2 "images" of the music...at the same time..
#1 is for the louder parts..

And #2..is for the softer notes..
..that are usually blown out or inaudible..and hard to deal with if not impossible in the final mix..

But now..everything is recoverable..with 32 bit float recording..
Everything..!

They need to make a sensor like this..
An example of this would be..to blow out the highlights 5 to 10 stops..and still be able to work with it in post...and/or in the same frame.. underexpose the shadows 5 to 10 times...and still recover them..
I would pay 8K for that.
  Reply With Quote

Old 4 Weeks Ago   #162
ptpdprinter
Registered User
 
ptpdprinter is offline
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post
They should develop a sensor..that eliminates the blown highlight issues..as well as the empty low values..

In recording music files..they now have 32 bit float recording..that takes 2 "images" of the music...at the same time..
#1 is for the louder parts..

And #2..is for the softer notes..
..that are usually blown out or inaudible..and hard to deal with if not impossible in the final mix..

But now..everything is recoverable..
They need to make a sensor like this..
Isn't this just HDR?
__________________
ambientlightcollection.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 4 Weeks Ago   #163
FrozenInTime
Registered User
 
FrozenInTime's Avatar
 
FrozenInTime is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Here and there
Posts: 1,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post
They should develop a sensor..that eliminates the blown highlight issues..as well as the empty low values..

In recording music files..they now have 32 bit float recording..that takes 2 "images" of the music...at the same time..
#1 is for the louder parts..

And #2..is for the softer notes..
..that are usually blown out or inaudible..and hard to deal with if not impossible in the final mix..

But now..everything is recoverable..
They need to make a sensor like this..
That could work - e.g. if every other pixel has a ND grey overlay:
For mid levels full resolution is achieved; where a non ND pixel over exposes, the adjacent highlight pixel is used ; similarly for shadow detail.
However there might be practical issues of linearity, bleed-over and tonal noise that would need or extensive calibration to mitigate.
Computational photography - integrating multiple short exposures, may be the modern solution.
__________________
It's the weird colour scheme that freaks me. Every time you try to operate one of these weird black controls, which are labeled in black on a black background, a small black light lights up black to let you know you've done it.
  Reply With Quote

Old 4 Weeks Ago   #164
Emile de Leon
Registered User
 
Emile de Leon is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,107
Quote:
Isn't this just HDR?
Dont know...
But 32 bit float..had just reached the consumer price range in 2019 at $650- for a 6 input/14 track unit..
Where it was only available in pro quality before..at a price..
If this was developed in the camera world..it would make a lot of expensive cams..instantly..obsolete..
  Reply With Quote

Old 4 Weeks Ago   #165
FrozenInTime
Registered User
 
FrozenInTime's Avatar
 
FrozenInTime is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Here and there
Posts: 1,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post
Dont know...
But 32 bit float..had just reached the consumer price range in 2019 at $650- for a 6 input/14 track unit..
Where it was only available in pro quality before..at a price..
If this was developed in the camera world..it would make a lot of expensive cams..instantly..obsolete..
Fujifilm tried something a while back - SuperCCD SR :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_CCD
__________________
It's the weird colour scheme that freaks me. Every time you try to operate one of these weird black controls, which are labeled in black on a black background, a small black light lights up black to let you know you've done it.
  Reply With Quote

Old 4 Weeks Ago   #166
jsrockit
Moderator
 
jsrockit's Avatar
 
jsrockit is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Santiago, Chile
Age: 46
Posts: 20,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post
If this was developed in the camera world..it would make a lot of expensive cams..instantly..obsolete..
I’m not so sure... many people strive for perfection while many embrace imperfection. The hyper-real look doesn’t do it for everyone.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #167
icebear
Registered User
 
icebear's Avatar
 
icebear is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: back in the woods
Posts: 3,019
Limitations of a tool or circumstances force the user to keep attention to get the most out of it. A can-do-everything tool allows the user to get sloppy.

Once you get the hang of it (not blowing those highlights) you are able to achieve great image files with shadow detail galore, what's not recorded in these shadows just isn't important ... a grey squirrel under a tree in a dark forest at night?

I read an interesting article about Beethoven's gradual loss of hearing. As he was not influenced by directly hearing other composers music, he made his own thing and the works turned out to be centuries enduring musical master pieces.

Keith Jarrett's famous Köln Concert, piano solo improvisation is the best selling album of this genre and the circumstances had been pretty bad. The concert piano scheduled to be on stage wasn't arranged due some misunderstanding of whatever poor communication and they had to get "some" available instrument on stage and somewhat get it in tune. The higher registers were still out of shape, so he had to play with a limited range and he made the best of it. Obviously the limitations helped to create a concert that made history.
__________________
Klaus
You have to see the light.
M9, MM & a bunch of glass, Q

my gallery:http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...d=6650&showall
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #168
JohnWolf
Registered User
 
JohnWolf is offline
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
I’m not so sure... many people strive for perfection while many embrace imperfection. The hyper-real look doesn’t do it for everyone.
Amen to that. I look at Jono's samples and think how nice they would be in Tri-X.

John
__________________
instagram
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #169
DwF
Registered User
 
DwF's Avatar
 
DwF is offline
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by icebear View Post
Limitations of a tool or circumstances force the user to keep attention to get the most out of it. A can-do-everything tool allows the user to get sloppy.

Once you get the hang of it (not blowing those highlights) you are able to achieve great image files with shadow detail galore, what's not recorded in these shadows just isn't important ... a grey squirrel under a tree in a dark forest at night?

I read an interesting article about Beethoven's gradual loss of hearing. As he was not influenced by directly hearing other composers music, he made his own thing and the works turned out to be centuries enduring musical master pieces.

Keith Jarrett's famous Köln Concert, piano solo improvisation is the best selling album of this genre and the circumstances had been pretty bad. The concert piano scheduled to be on stage wasn't arranged due some misunderstanding of whatever poor communication and they had to get "some" available instrument on stage and somewhat get it in tune. The higher registers were still out of shape, so he had to play with a limited range and he made the best of it. Obviously the limitations helped to create a concert that made history.
Keith dealt with that lots! I was at the Village Vanguard during that time to hear him with his trio (Eddie Gomez and Paul Motian on drums). Within a few bars of the first tune, he had the tuning hammer out. Before long he gave up; end of show. I found myself ahead of him on line toward the bathroom and someone said something to the affect of "sorry the Keyboard is out of of tune" he launched into a tirade at the use of the word keyboard, versus piano. His rant was directly applicable here in that he wasn't eager to buy-in to the technology of electronic keyboard when his love was for the piano. It stuck with me, so just thought I'd share. And while I'm at it, Köln was certainly inspired but one of the great studio recordings that preceded it was Facing You. I strongly recommend that recording

Back to the subject, I agree that limitations are always there with cameras on some level. That's not a bad thing, and also the notion that an image needs to look "just as we see" quality-wise can be technology wagging the dog. It's great that we have the ability to develop an aesthetic sensibility, and it only follows that as photographers, especially ones who care to develop their artistic vision, make choices that influence the look of images they create. Just because engineers and technicians and the market place offers new options at a dizzying rate, it does not necessarily follow that the offerings are applicable to our aesthetic vision.

Myself, I am perfectly happy to continue using my MM and feel very fortunate to have it. The challenge is always nailing the exposure (maintaining the highs). The better I do, the easier I find the processing to get what or close to what I think I saw tonally and texturally and ultimately what inspired me to make the exposure. I still find my interaction with this tool if at times frustrating, to be very rewarding.

David
__________________
DwF DwF’s Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #170
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 62
Posts: 10,409
Quote:
Originally Posted by DwF View Post
Myself, I am perfectly happy to continue using my MM and feel very fortunate to have it. The challenge is always nailing the exposure (maintaining the highs). The better I do, the easier I find the processing to get what or close to what I think I saw tonally and texturally and ultimately what inspired me to make the exposure. I still find my interaction with this tool if at times frustrating, to be very rewarding.

David
David,

I think a great image capture and clean file from a MM does just fine. In fact as you point out if you get optimum exposure the prints can have a HDR like effect of both sharpness, depth and wide tonality.

I found that Heliopan filters marked "Digital" have both IR and UV filters that reduce signals that I would call noise (non visual information). These filters marked "Digital" lower or eliminate clipping the highlights, and allow me to expose more to the right (added exposure) to capture more information. In effect they assist greatly in making these "Moby Dick" profile histograms that print so well without much post processing.

Also know that a Heliopan 2X yellow filter allows one to shoot like a large format shooter making a negative for contact printing. My logic is less aggressive post and not adding contrast say in LR minimizes digital artifacts and keeps the noise low.

The 10 band histogram supplied from the camera, along with the clipping indicators is a really great tool for nailing exposure. In the end this rather primitive and simple digital camera was some of the best money I ever spent, and it surely made me into a better photographer.

I also love the rendering. The M-246 is a superior camera in every way, but perhaps one: for me the MM and the vast midrange I get allows me to transcend formats easily. To me medium and large format the "voice" is in the midrange and it is less about contrast.

The CMOS sensors have a smoother rolloff in the highlights than the Monochrom's CCD sensor. In the shadows too the CMOS sensor captures more shadow detail than the Monochrom's CCD sensor; but where the MM excels is in the mids.

The MM is like a deadly Kung-Fu move. Not sure I need a M10M. BTW I print big 20x30 image size on 24x36.

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #171
giganova
Registered User
 
giganova is offline
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,527
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
The hyper-real look doesn’t do it for everyone.
You have to embrace that they are digital and not even think about film look when you get a digital camera. Even though I could afford a digital Leica, incl the M10 MM, I don't like the digital b&w look and will stick to film. Bit if I ever get sick of developing film, I'll probably get one for convenience, even though 40MP is way too much and slows down the workflow. As other have said, converting digital photos that have been captured in color to b&w is not the same as a true monochrome sensor.

The only digital b&w photographer I like and can relate to is Jacob Aue Sobol who uses an MM. He uses a technique (cranked-up contrast and high gamma) that doesn't look very digital, but I understand that his esthetics is not for everyone.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #172
Emile de Leon
Registered User
 
Emile de Leon is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,107
Trust me..
If they put 32 bit float in new cameras..
You will be buyin them asap..
As it will increase the tonality..with less time expended..

This will be a boon to sloppier workers too..lol..
But really..there is no excuse for sloppy work..but it will save the day just in case..

32 bit float..will decrease your time in front of the computer..
Make your images better..and less cumbersome to produce..
I'm about to buy my 1st 32 bit float recorder..
It makes all the other recorders I have..obsolete..
Yes..I'm a professional musician.

But I doubt they will do this with cameras..
As in...too much to lose..dollarwise..
Just keep it the same..and make the same bux..
No need to rock the boat..
Cripple cameras..sell just as well..as advanced ones..
No need to pump research money..into a declining market..
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #173
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
 
Calzone's Avatar
 
Calzone is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hell Gate, Madhattan
Age: 62
Posts: 10,409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post
Trust me..
If they put 32 bit float in new cameras..
You will be buyin them asap..
As it will increase the tonality..with less time expended..

This will be a boon to sloppier workers too..lol..
But really..there is no excuse for sloppy work..but it will save the day just in case..

32 bit float..will decrease your time in front of the computer..
Make your images better..and less cumbersome to produce..
I'm about to buy my 1st 32 bit float recorder..
It makes all the other recorders I have..obsolete..
Yes..I'm a professional musician.

But I doubt they will do this with cameras..
As in...too much to lose..dollarwise..
Just keep it the same..and make the same bux..
No need to rock the boat..
Cripple cameras..sell just as well..as advanced ones..
No need to pump research money..into a declining market..
Emile,

I already don't spent a lot of time doing post. Really only minor tweaking.

For increased tonality I print with 7 shades of black using Piezography.

This is old stuff that is turnkey (K7 Piezography and my MM is now an 8 year old camera).

Only 18 MP and I print 20x30 image size on 24x36 sheet.

Like I said above, "Like a deadly Kung-Fu move."

Cal
__________________
"Vintage Hipster"
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #174
Emile de Leon
Registered User
 
Emile de Leon is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,107
Quote:
I already don't spent a lot of time doing post.
Even less than that...lol...
Trust me..you would bail in a heart beat..
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #175
DwF
Registered User
 
DwF's Avatar
 
DwF is offline
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone View Post
David,

I think a great image capture and clean file from a MM does just fine. In fact as you point out if you get optimum exposure the prints can have a HDR like effect of both sharpness, depth and wide tonality.

I found that Heliopan filters marked "Digital" have both IR and UV filters that reduce signals that I would call noise (non visual information). These filters marked "Digital" lower or eliminate clipping the highlights, and allow me to expose more to the right (added exposure) to capture more information. In effect they assist greatly in making these "Moby Dick" profile histograms that print so well without much post processing.

Also know that a Heliopan 2X yellow filter allows one to shoot like a large format shooter making a negative for contact printing. My logic is less aggressive post and not adding contrast say in LR minimizes digital artifacts and keeps the noise low.

The 10 band histogram supplied from the camera, along with the clipping indicators is a really great tool for nailing exposure. In the end this rather primitive and simple digital camera was some of the best money I ever spent, and it surely made me into a better photographer.

I also love the rendering. The M-246 is a superior camera in every way, but perhaps one: for me the MM and the vast midrange I get allows me to transcend formats easily. To me medium and large format the "voice" is in the midrange and it is less about contrast.

The CMOS sensors have a smoother rolloff in the highlights than the Monochrom's CCD sensor. In the shadows too the CMOS sensor captures more shadow detail than the Monochrom's CCD sensor; but where the MM excels is in the mids.

The MM is like a deadly Kung-Fu move. Not sure I need a M10M. BTW I print big 20x30 image size on 24x36.

Cal
Thanks for that Cal.also use the Heliopan "digital" filter.

Your analysis is more detailed than mine. Nor have I made or seen live side-by-side prints from 246 files to make adequate comparison. I have only had prints made from my own processed MM files. Your point about the mid-range makes sense. As per your your comment about the shadow areas, and saying the MM exceeds in the mids, where there transitions are smooth, there is also an edgy quality in lows and highs in some images that strikes me as unique to the Monochrom CCD. And it's a quality that I like
__________________
DwF DwF’s Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #176
icebear
Registered User
 
icebear's Avatar
 
icebear is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: back in the woods
Posts: 3,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by DwF View Post
Keith dealt with that lots! I was at the Village Vanguard during that time to hear him with his trio (Eddie Gomez and Paul Motian on drums). Within a few bars of the first tune, he had the tuning hammer out. Before long he gave up; end of show. I found myself ahead of him on line toward the bathroom and someone said something to the affect of "sorry the Keyboard is out of of tune" he launched into a tirade at he use of the word keyboard, versus piano. His rant was directly applicable here in that he wasn't eager to buy-in to the technology of electronic keyboard when his love was for the piano. It stuck with me, so just thought I'd share. And while I'm at it, Köln was certainly inspired but one of the great studio recordings that preceded it was Facing You. I strongly recommend that recording
...
David
Wow to see this trio in such an intimate setting of the Vanguard must have been a unique experience. And I take it that he didn't have to complain about people taking photos ... strict no photo policy anyway. I have only seen Keith in larger venues (Carnegie Hall & NJPAC, trio & solo). I've seen Ravi Coltrane at the Vanguard. Before the concert he was having some outside food and a beer at one of the tables at the side wall to the right. There was a photo of John Coltrane just above him. I'm not sure if he even noticed... I would have loved to take a picture of that but also didn't want to ruin the moment for him.
__________________
Klaus
You have to see the light.
M9, MM & a bunch of glass, Q

my gallery:http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...d=6650&showall
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #177
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: CA
Posts: 8,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by giganova View Post
You have to embrace that they are digital and not even think about film look when you get a digital camera. Even though I could afford a digital Leica, incl the M10 MM, I don't like the digital b&w look and will stick to film. Bit if I ever get sick of developing film, I'll probably get one for convenience, even though 40MP is way too much and slows down the workflow. As other have said, converting digital photos that have been captured in color to b&w is not the same as a true monochrome sensor.

The only digital b&w photographer I like and can relate to is Jacob Aue Sobol who uses an MM. He uses a technique (cranked-up contrast and high gamma) that doesn't look very digital, but I understand that his esthetics is not for everyone.
A really nice monochrome camera is the Oly PenF w/ its B&W modes.
It is slightly cheaper than the Leica.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #178
DwF
Registered User
 
DwF's Avatar
 
DwF is offline
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by icebear View Post
Wow to see this trio in such an intimate setting of the Vanguard must have been a unique experience. And I take it that he didn't have to complain about people taking photos ... strict no photo policy anyway. I have only seen Keith in larger venues (Carnegie Hall & NJPAC, trio & solo). I've seen Ravi Coltrane at the Vanguard. Before the concert he was having some outside food and a beer at one of the tables at the side wall to the right. There was a photo of John Coltrane just above him. I'm not sure if he even noticed... I would have loved to take a picture of that but also didn't want to ruin the moment for him.
Klaus,

I only saw him that one time that I recall in a small intimate venue but saw him in larger ones (Alice Tully and Carnegie). I did see Bill Evans at least a couple times back in the seventies at the Vanguard and was a few feet from the keyboard at least one of the times....wonderful Back in those days, the clubs (Sweet Basil, comes to mind, and The Five Spot reopened and I saw both Ornette there but he played only his violin that night and Cecil Taylor there which brought in a who's-who crowd!

David
__________________
DwF DwF’s Gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #179
ranger9
Registered User
 
ranger9 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 53
I realize we're talking apples and oranges, but I concur that the Pen F is a nice way to shoot b&w. I like to use the curves controls to punch up the highlights, push down the blacks, and boost the midtown curve a bit. The results aren't as are-bure as Sobol's but they're pretty punchy. Example shoot: https://www.jlwphoto.net/American-Mi...h-Frank-Chaves

Incidentally, that Sobol portfolio linked above is kinda NSFW, in case anyone is planning to go have a look...
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #180
willie_901
Registered User
 
willie_901's Avatar
 
willie_901 is offline
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,357
Thanks for the clarification.

I have sent you a PM that discusses shows how exposure range and dynamic range are more similar than different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
You have misunderstood me. Please note that I said exposure range, not dynamic range. They are different. Dynamic range is what the sensor gives you and you have explained above, exposure range is what you get out of the camera.

This is a good summary: https://theonlinephotographer.typepa...ge-part-i.html

An ND filter would provide the sensor with a way to obtain information in brighter areas of the photo (however many stops the filter was), where it currently is pure white or “clipped” as it is commonly called. This would allow the camera to get additional highlight information and more importantly provide gentler tonal transition in the highlights of the images. The DR of the sensor would, of course, stay the same. Some microscope cameras work this way and save having to bracket and stack the images.

Marty
__________________
Basically, I mean, ah—well, let’s say that for me anyway when a photograph is interesting, it’s interesting because of the kind of photographic problem it states—which has to do with the . . . contest between content and form.
Garry Winogrand
williamchuttonjr.com
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #181
Emile de Leon
Registered User
 
Emile de Leon is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,107
The new Monochrome w/50mm APO..
A pretty compelling argument for it below..
If you got the dough..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU4rjFXfupU
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #182
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,946
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post
They should develop a sensor..that eliminates the blown highlight issues...
I doubt it is sensor, just bad TTL metering.
My M-E is not so good for TTL metering. Olympus E-PL1 I have is way better for it.
Here is one for X.
Quote:
With the X, I had trouble with some too easily blown highlights in high-contrast scenarios,
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/43...on-the-leica-x
Monochromes seems to be the same.
Basically $$$$ digital Leica remains as manual exposure camera. They could pull it with wide latitude film, but on digital this luck of technology is visible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post
The new Monochrome w/50mm APO..
A pretty compelling argument for it below..
If you got the dough..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU4rjFXfupU
Is this new Leica fans look? To me as old school bw gelatin silver prints dude is is next to awful on tonality images in this video. And I already mentioned awful ISO 16000 banding in this video in another thread. @ 8:45 if I'm not mistaken.
Worse video to promote M10M, IMO.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #183
Emile de Leon
Registered User
 
Emile de Leon is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,107
Quote:
Worse video to promote M10M
I aint buyin it anytime soon..lol..
As..I can get way better tonality out of contact prints with LF 5x7 and up..
But that M10 with the 50 APO..not too shabby..for digital..
If thats your game..
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #184
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,946
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post
I aint buyin it anytime soon..lol..
As..I can get way better tonality out of contact prints with LF 5x7 and up..
But that M10 with the 50 APO..not too shabby..for digital..
If thats your game..
Lets not lie to ourselves...

Here is way better digital BW. From M8, M9 and from very few Monochrome users. Not to mention bw conversions from another digital cameras. My 40$ Lumix gives better and SOOC. IMO.

The only great advantage of Monochrome I see is better resolving power. But tonality from its average user, including reviewers, which they are getting from it is far from economy Kentmere 400 film scans taken by Zorki.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #185
retinax
Registered User
 
retinax is online now
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,091
Yes well I looked at one of the linked reviews and also from some other stuff I've seen, apparently a lot of people seem to fail to understand that the huge dynamic ra -ok ok, exposure range- results in very flat files that need the contrast bumped up a lot. I'm also pretty certain that "tonality" can be anything the user wants, but some people need to get familiar with the curves tool.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #186
Huss
Registered User
 
Huss is offline
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: CA
Posts: 8,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by retinax View Post
Yes well I looked at one of the linked reviews and also from some other stuff I've seen, apparently a lot of people seem to fail to understand that the huge dynamic ra -ok ok, exposure range- results in very flat files that need the contrast bumped up a lot. I'm also pretty certain that "tonality" can be anything the user wants, but some people need to get familiar with the curves tool.
There's a reason Leica used to bundle SilverFX with the camera. Because of the intentionally flat files. W/ SilverFX, boom - pick your moody preset!

Silver Efex Pro and Adobe Photoshop Lightroom
After registration of the camera, a full version of the world's leading black-and-white image processing software, NIK Silver Efex Pro, is supplied as a free download along with a copy of Adobe Photoshop Lightroom. Silver Efex Pro incorporates a unique and powerful set of darkroom-inspired tools to maximize the quality of monochrome prints produced by the M Monochrom. Silver Efex Pro emulates over 20 different black and white film types to recreate the classic monochrome look of film. The emulation is based on detailed analysis of multiple rolls of each film type. This results in accurate reproductions of popular film from ISO 32 to ISO 3200.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #187
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,946
Bingo! I didn't knew it. SilverFX is not panacea for experienced user, but good amateur starting point.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #188
icebear
Registered User
 
icebear's Avatar
 
icebear is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: back in the woods
Posts: 3,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
....

Is this new Leica fans look? To me as old school bw gelatin silver prints dude is is next to awful on tonality images in this video. And I already mentioned awful ISO 16000 banding in this video in another thread. @ 8:45 if I'm not mistaken.
Worse video to promote M10M, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko.Fe. View Post
Lets not lie to ourselves...

Here is way better digital BW. From M8, M9 and from very few Monochrome users. Not to mention bw conversions from another digital cameras. My 40$ Lumix gives better and SOOC. IMO.

The only great advantage of Monochrome I see is better resolving power. But tonality from its average user, including reviewers, which they are getting from it is far from economy Kentmere 400 film scans taken by Zorki.
Trying to evaluate the image quality of a camera from files embedded into a you tube video??

Quote:
Originally Posted by retinax View Post
...I'm also pretty certain that "tonality" can be anything the user wants, but some people need to get familiar with the curves tool.
THIS ^^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
There's a reason Leica used to bundle SilverFX with the camera. Because of the intentionally flat files. W/ SilverFX, boom - pick your moody preset!
And THIS^^ as well. A film negative is also just a flat starting point. You have to choose the right developer, right parameters, right printing paper. If you print a low contrast negative on low gradiation paper, you'll get a flat looking print.

I tried SFX with my MM at the beginning and didn't like it at all. It just didn't give me any improvement and looked somehow artificial for me. On the other hand I never had the intention to fake a certain analog film grain look.
__________________
Klaus
You have to see the light.
M9, MM & a bunch of glass, Q

my gallery:http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffg...d=6650&showall
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #189
Larry Cloetta
Registered User
 
Larry Cloetta is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Jackson, WY
Age: 70
Posts: 1,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by retinax View Post
I'm also pretty certain that "tonality" can be anything the user wants, but some people need to get familiar with the curves tool.
True enough. It’s also true that what’s “good tonality” for someone can be “ungood tonality” for someone else since it’s not a hard scientific term the way it is often used and tossed around. More often than not in discussions “good tonality” only means “I like the way it looks, it fits my style”.
Curves are a valuable tool, but are only a way of manipulating local and overall contrast. The tonal results obtained via the curves tool can be significant, but curves cannot create new information that wasn't captured by the sensor or the negative + developer to begin with. It’s not possible to make absolutely every photo appear exactly how you want it to appear using any sensor or film stock. Sensor tech matters. If the data isn't here to begin with, from film or sensor, there is no post processing method that can ever tease it out. The “tonality” available is going to depend, to a certain extent on the sensor used, and, not to forget, the microcontrast and macrocontrast of the lens used.
Even with all that considered, the “tonality” of the end result file or print will come down to the skill of the person doing the processing, film or digital.

With that in mind, it would be helpful, in threads like this, where terms like “good tonality” are tossed back and forth, if people could post examples of their own work, as it relates to the thread, so others will understand exactly what that person means when they are using the term.
__________________
Larry

“It is about time we take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.” Elliot Erwitt
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #190
retinax
Registered User
 
retinax is online now
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
True enough. It’s also true that what’s “good tonality” for someone can be “ungood tonality” for someone else since it’s not a hard scientific term the way it is often used and tossed around. More often than not in discussions “good tonality” only means “I like the way it looks, it fits my style”.
Curves are a valuable tool, but are only a way of manipulating local and overall contrast. The tonal results obtained via the curves tool can be significant, but curves cannot create new information that wasn't captured by the sensor or the negative + developer to begin with. It’s not possible to make absolutely every photo appear exactly how you want it to appear using any sensor or film stock. Sensor tech matters. If the data isn't here to begin with, from film or sensor, there is no post processing method that can ever tease it out. The “tonality” available is going to depend, to a certain extent on the sensor used, and, not to forget, the microcontrast and macrocontrast of the lens used.
Even with all that considered, the “tonality” of the end result file or print will come down to the skill of the person doing the processing, film or digital.

With that in mind, it would be helpful, in threads like this, where terms like “good tonality” are tossed back and forth, if people could post examples of their own work, as it relates to the thread, so others will understand exactly what that person means when they are using the term.

Sure, I didn't mean to say that the curves tool is the one and only ticket to "good tonality", but I was mainly responding to Ko.Fe. and his observation that most samples have bad tonality. I suspected that the main culprit is the flat look that a system with huge exposure range is bound to give in all but the most contrasty situations unless the contrast is worked on, and curves are the simplest and most flexible way to do that, is all. Of course there is more to "good tonality" (although it's very subjective), and the main thing IMHO is light. But without getting the contrast right for the viewing medium (although of course also a matter of taste), that all amounts to nothing.
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #191
Larry Cloetta
Registered User
 
Larry Cloetta is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Jackson, WY
Age: 70
Posts: 1,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by retinax View Post
Sure, I didn't mean to say that the curves tool is the one and only ticket to "good tonality", but I was mainly responding to Ko.Fe. and his observation that most samples have bad tonality. I suspected that the main culprit is the flat look that a system with huge exposure range is bound to give in all but the most contrasty situations unless the contrast is worked on, and curves are the simplest and most flexible way to do that, is all. Of course there is more to "good tonality" (although it's very subjective), and the main thing IMHO is light. But without getting the contrast right for the viewing medium (although of course also a matter of taste), that all amounts to nothing.
Exactly. I wasn’t thinking you thought otherwise, was just making some comments about the “good tonality” thing, in general. Sorry, that it might have appeared otherwise.
__________________
Larry

“It is about time we take photography seriously and treat it as a hobby.” Elliot Erwitt
  Reply With Quote

Old 3 Weeks Ago   #192
Freakscene
Deregistered user
 
Freakscene's Avatar
 
Freakscene is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: In exile
Posts: 1,701
Quote:
Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
Thanks for the clarification.
I have sent you a PM that discusses shows how exposure range and dynamic range are more similar than different.
As I said in my PM response, DR and ER are only similar for sensors and camera systems with conventional architecture. And in the absence of a better definition, exposure range is the range of light values the camera system can capture however it achieves that.

ETTR leads to problems because a lot of photographers don’t know how to judge how far to the right the histogram should go. I still see more digital photography work with ugly blown highlights because the photographer exposed too far to the right than with noise problems because the photographer exposed too far to the left.

When we use B&W film, there is a lot more information on the film than you put onto paper, or, more recently, you display in a scan. For TMY in Xtol, for example, there are 13-16 stops worth of light range range in the scenes we photograph, minimum, and at CI 0.58 there are 19.5, but there are only about 8 in a print or scan. The advantage of increasing the amount of information in files is that It gives you more choices about how to present the image. And, most importantly to me, it facilitates a gentler roll-off from high/light grey values to pure white, akin to burning some highlights in a darkroom print. There is already a huge amount of shadow information in raw files from these cameras to ‘dodge’’ the shadows.

Having a monochrome raw file is underrated. The in camera B&Ws from other cameras often look good, but because they are jpgs if you need to tweak something they fall apart as soon as you try to adjust anything.

Marty
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:50.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.