Color Tint in TRI-X by accident?
Old 01-09-2017   #1
Moogie77
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Color Tint in TRI-X by accident?

Dear forum friends,

I am seeking for help from you.

Just recently I got two of my pictures deleted from a B&W group on flickr as one of the moderators claimed them to be color tinted.

However I did not color tint anything. It was pure TRI-X developed in HC-110 and also in Lightroom I did not add any color or something...

Don't know how exactly this happened as I am still a beginner in film but I did not modify it in any way...

Just added a bit of contrast...

Also in Silverfast I selected TRI-X as scanned film and scanned with Plustek 8200i.

Anyway I like the results but also I am wondering what do you think? Do they really look color tinted or is just the special tri-x look?

As I am still kind of new to film I am absolutely clueless how to interpret this.

I hope maybe you have some comments which can help me to understand?

Thanks to all of you, Miguel

And here the two concerned images:

[IMG]Exhaust_Reflection_1 by Miguel Buschhauer, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]Simon_after_D3_7 by Miguel Buschhauer, on Flickr[/IMG]

Last edited by Moogie77 : 01-09-2017 at 07:29. Reason: corrected typing errors
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Old 01-09-2017   #2
mpaniagua
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ummm Same thing happens to me when I left the defaults setting on. Just reduce the saturation parameter to 0 and you will get more pure black and white. Yeah, I suppose it could count as Color Tint, done unaware but still tint. I
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Old 01-09-2017   #3
mpaniagua
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Here some "tint" from Kentmere 400, when I was new to Silverfast:



Kinda yellowish I suppose.
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Old 01-09-2017   #4
sevo
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All black and white films contain dyes - most notably sensitizers, anti-lightpiping and anti-halation dyes. Not all of them will wash out in the processing - negatives usually will have a blue, green or pink stain. If you colour print or scan them, that will show up in the final result...
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Old 01-09-2017   #5
Moogie77
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Hi mpaniagua and sevo,

Thanks for the hints. This makes sense. I take care of it for my next scans.

Thanks and best regards, Miguel

Last edited by Moogie77 : 01-09-2017 at 07:43. Reason: added sevo
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Old 01-09-2017   #6
ChrisPlatt
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I'm not surprised - all my Tri-X comes out purple or pink!

Chris
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Old 01-09-2017   #7
p.giannakis
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I think it is more of a scanning issue than developing. If you scanned it as RGB jpg and you adjusted the levels you could end up with a colour hue. This happens if you adjusted any of the 'Red', 'Green' or 'Blue' channels on the image editing programme.
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Old 01-09-2017   #8
BLKRCAT
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As posted above. This is what happens when you scan RGB.
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Old 01-09-2017   #9
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You forum moderator is a miserable pedant, by the way.
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Old 01-09-2017   #10
mpaniagua
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p.giannakis View Post
I think it is more of a scanning issue than developing. If you scanned it as RGB jpg and you adjusted the levels you could end up with a colour hue. This happens if you adjusted any of the 'Red', 'Green' or 'Blue' channels on the image editing programme.
Agree. Scanning issue. Would go further and say its a scanning software issue. Anyway, sometimes I get pleasant result from this, especially on Ilford Delta 100 .


Regards.

Marcelo
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Old 01-09-2017   #11
Steve M.
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If it ain't purple, it ain't Tri-X.

Washing the film longer will usually resolve this, but some batches of film are more "colorful" than others. If you're scanning, simply convert to grey scale when you save (or scan at that setting to begin with, which I what I think should be done w/ any B&W film).
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Old 01-09-2017   #12
mpaniagua
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M. View Post
If it ain't purple, it ain't Tri-X.

Washing the film longer will usually resolve this, but some batches of film are more "colorful" than others. If you're scanning, simply convert to grey scale when you save (or scan at that setting to begin with, which I what I think should be done w/ any B&W film).
Agree. If your scanning software has a hue saturation setting, lower its value. It may help.

Regards.

Marcelo
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Old 01-09-2017   #13
Scapevision
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I don't understand your confusion. Is black and white supposed to be represented as anything else but shades of grey? If using Lr click on the "Black and White" or V for shortcut.
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Old 01-09-2017   #14
Timmyjoe
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Yeah, I've found that if I scan in RGB, doesn't matter how B&W the negative is, the scanner will pick up some color cast. Simple solution is to scan in greyscale, or just convert your image to B&W in post processing after scanning.
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Old 01-09-2017   #15
mpaniagua
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scapevision View Post
I don't understand your confusion. Is black and white supposed to be represented as anything else but shades of grey? If using Lr click on the "Black and White" or V for shortcut.
Thanks for the info scapevision. His issue seems to be with the SilverFast scanning though.


Regards.

Marcelo
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Old 01-09-2017   #16
BLKRCAT
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If scanning in silver fast you can scan as a bw negative. When I was scanning with silver fast I did make a point to desaturate the image afterwards to make sure I ended up with a perfectly black and white image with no tint.
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Old 01-09-2017   #17
kb244
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Whenever I see physical color in Kodak film, particularly towards blue or purple, it says to me it needs to stay in the Fixer a little longer.

However if it's only in scanning, I get that sometimes if I scan it as a color film, and the software attempts to white balance correct for it among other filters (naturally silver halide negs don't reflect back or shine thru the same way as color negatives). But I usually make sure I scan the negs as black and white then add whatever toning I want afterwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPlatt View Post
I'm not surprised - all my Tri-X comes out purple or pink!

Chris
If you can see it in person as a faint pink/purple, needs to stay in the fixer a little longer (it's by design).

Since Pink and Purple are the two common colors the negs stay with their designed fixers until it's completely fixed.
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Old 01-09-2017   #18
sevo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb244 View Post
If you can see it in person as a faint pink/purple, needs to stay in the fixer a little longer (it's by design).
Don't overfix it! T-Max doubtlessly needs longer fixing, but that will not remove the stain, it comes out very pink even after that. Kodak's own recommendation is to extend washing and in desperate cases to use hypo clearer. The same presumably goes for "new" Tri-X (which going by the change in stain seems to share the T-Max sensitizer).
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Old 01-09-2017   #19
p.giannakis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevo View Post
Don't overfix it!
I've never heard of overfixing a negative. I leave my developed films way past the recommended fixing time and never had any Issues. What happens during overfixing?
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Old 01-09-2017   #20
sevo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p.giannakis View Post
I've never heard of overfixing a negative. I leave my developed films way past the recommended fixing time and never had any Issues. What happens during overfixing?
Overfixing will always become evident in the thinnest part of a print or negative. It being a negative, it does the inverse of what overfixing a print does - it eats out the shadow detail. And I've seen it happen to film, when screwing up times and concentrations (mixing 1:4 and applying the 1:9 time).
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Old 01-09-2017   #21
p.giannakis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevo View Post
Overfixing will always become evident in the thinnest part of a print or negative. It being a negative, it does the inverse of what overfixing a print does - it eats out the shadow detail. And I've seen it happen to film, when screwing up times and concentrations (mixing 1:4 and applying the 1:9 time).
Thank you, that's something to be mindful of.
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Old 01-10-2017   #22
Moogie77
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Thanks again to everybody for your very experienced answers and the interesting discussion points.

Now I can focus next time on the adjustments in Silverfast and not only setup B&W negative as scanning source and select TRI-X as the scanned film in it. I always thought this would be enough and did not pay attention to any other settings as I believed it would be already sufficient.

Also wash longer or extend the fixing time a bit I can try to achieve maybe already a pure black and white negative without color traces. But I will be careful not to push this too far.

BTW as I am normally not a fan of changing the picture (in this case negative) I am curious what in this case the darkroom result would be? Would it also shows the color tint? Or is it in most cases just the scan (software) to also add the color tint to the pure black and white negative you leave the RGB setting or saturation up (or mostly a combination of both)?

I wish you all a good day.

Cheers, Miguel
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Old 01-10-2017   #23
Pherdinand
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darkroom printing would - normally - be done on black and white paper which of course does not support any colors
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Old 01-10-2017   #24
Moogie77
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Hehe, so much I am not knowing :-)

Thanks for the clarification.
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Old 01-13-2017   #25
sara
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In the lab when I scan b/w film especially XP2, there's always a tint of colour and it's not 100% b/w unless you totally convert it in Photoshop.
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Old 01-13-2017   #26
FujiLove
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It's very subtle, but I like them. I don't think you have anything to worry about. Convert to monotone or keep them as-is. I would keep them as they are personally as they have a unique feel.

I also like hand coloured B&W images such as the ones Roger Hicks posted recently on another thread.
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Old 01-16-2017   #27
LSI_Ketelhohn
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Hello,

for many B&W films it is normal to show a slight blueish or greenish tint. Many users even like to keep those.
To get true greyscale B&W images try selecting 16->8 Bit or 16 Bit output.
You can also desaturate images by using the Saturation slider in the Picture settings or even the ACR slider in the Selective CC dialog.


Kind regards,
Arne
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Old 01-16-2017   #28
kb244
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I wonder what impact if any the slight pink or purple tint would have on variable contrast paper.
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Old 01-17-2017   #29
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You forum moderator is a miserable pedant, by the way.
Seconded!!
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Old 01-17-2017   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb244 View Post
If you can see it in person as a faint pink/purple, needs to stay in the fixer a little longer (it's by design).

Since Pink and Purple are the two common colors the negs stay with their designed fixers until it's completely fixed.
Fixer removes the unexposed/undeveloped silver halide and the opacifier layer. It has little to do with the purple dye, which will come out with

- hypo-clear and extending the wash, or

- simply hanging your fixed (by the book) film in sunlight for about an hour.

It's an extremely unstable dye. In fact, it is highly soluble in alkaline solutions, which is why when you use Rodinal, it all seems to end up in your developer.

The problem with relying on fixer, especially acid fixer, to get this out is that what is removing the dye is the water, not the fixer dissolved in it. Your fixer saturates with the dye, and the fixer then becomes less and less effective at getting it out (which leads to longer and longer fixing times if color is how you gauge fixing). That, I suspect, is why people think that "freshly mixed fixer" is needed to get it out (which is an amazingly expensive and environmentally unfriendly way of addressing the problem). But your fixer is not becoming less effective at its core mission, which is to stabilize the image.

Among fixers, TF4 is the best.

Dante
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