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Old 10-20-2015   #81
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Not a camera for selfies :-)
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Old 10-20-2015   #82
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Leica's announcement this morning:
http://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-SL/Details

For those who like the simple Leica S control layout, this SL will be very familiar. The battery looks similar, as does the joy-stick.

I see no mention of auto-ISO or GPS, though that bump on the top left side looks like a GPS antenna.

The size is surprising. But the T-mount is quite large while the mount on the SL looks more M-size in proportion. But that must be deceptive and the body is bigger than it first appears in the photos. With a bigger body, the T mount is in proper scale...

And I was thinking the rear LCD looked awfully small, but if the body is bigger than it appears, that comes into scale as well.
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Old 10-20-2015   #83
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I thought I saw in the specs that video mode was APSc with a 1.5x crop factor?

Did I read that correctly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samouraï View Post
So I've read into this camera just a bit, and if the video mode offers a full-pixel, downsampled readout at full frame, then maybe the price could be justified, as this will be the only 4K full frame 10-bit video camera on the market (10 bit out, 8 bit internal).
So that's kind of interesting, aside from what is probably a really high quality still camera.
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Old 10-20-2015   #84
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As always, he provides real info unlike the pr release that the other one up here provided.
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Old 10-20-2015   #85
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but only focus peaking as manual focus aid? not even fujis digital split screen? wow, that is one of the big disappointments. back to your homes people, nothin to see here...
Read Ming Thein's review. Focus peaking and magnification with the best EVF made. He says it makes the Sony A7Rii's look like peering through a straw.

Plenty to see here people. Including this nugget:

"M lenses are now virtually native, as are R lenses; they’re easy to focus and image quality is better than from the M cameras. "
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Old 10-20-2015   #86
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hmm so Leica managed to do SLR size mirrorless, that looks like SLR
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Old 10-20-2015   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Read Ming Thein's review. Focus peaking and magnification with the best EVF made. He says it makes the Sony A7Rii's look like peering through a straw.

Plenty to see here people. Including this nugget:

"M lenses are now virtually native, as are R lenses; they’re easy to focus and image quality is better than from the M cameras. "
He said pretty much as much about the Q's EVF. In reality I find the color tearing from panning pretty noticeable. The EVF is indeed a lot larger than any other one out there - the size is consistent with the Leica S's OVF, but slightly smaller than what you get with the 645Z.

Either way, for the price of the body alone you can get an A7rII and 3-4 Sony-Zeiss primes. Or you can send it for a thin filter stack mod and get a 50mm Summilux ASPH for the price difference...
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Old 10-20-2015   #88
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Another review/preview with images and even video, for those that care:

http://leicarumors.com/2015/10/20/th...mbles-big.aspx
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Old 10-20-2015   #89
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This announcement made my evening earlier, it's utterly hilarious.

Pricing is ridiculous (you could pick up a couple of Pentax 645Ds instead of the body), specs that are, on paper at least a couple of years behind the top of the competition.

And it's not only hideous but looks comically massive too.

I wonder if a bunch of Q owners will ditch the Q for this? That's the only Leica product I'm lustful over.
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Old 10-20-2015   #90
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Larger than CaNikon
No on camera manual controls
No on lens aperture ring
No manual focusing aid beyond 'peaking'
$10,000 cam/lens combo

Give leica credit for celebrating the Fall-holiday season with the camera version of 'A Charlie Brown Halloween':

Sony: 'I got an A7'
Fuji: 'I got an XT1'
Leica: 'I got a rock!'
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Old 10-20-2015   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbelyell View Post
$10,000 cam/lens combo
Where are you getting that price? I see at B&H the body is roughly $7500 and the 24-90 zoom is roughly $5000? Are you talking about the 50mm lens? I've not seen a price for that yet.
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Old 10-20-2015   #92
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This seems to be a very capable camera that Panasonic has come up with. I don't have a problem with its looks, because it looks like a Leica SLR, but I'm just stunned by the monstrous size of the thing, and of its lenses.
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Old 10-20-2015   #93
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Oh, I can be so slow sometimes..... I get it. This new body is like an S with the new L mount; put them together and you get SL. Just coincidence that SL was the moniker of an earlier SLR from Leica?

I bet its a stellar performer (as mentioned by the reviews), but no manual controls and no aperture ring mean I can't use it like I want. Then there's the price. Yes, I know it sounds like whining, but no. Even if I had the funds, I would still have to do the cost-benefit analysis and consider all my options. I would like to use R lenses, and I would like full frame; there might be other ways to get there...for less $$ leaving me with the ability to purchase a backup camera, or more lenses, or maybe some lighting. Seriously. The pricing is tough, but I'm quite certain Leica will sell these.

Now that I've complained about the price and the lack of manual controls, I will (mostly) withhold judgement until I get a chance to learn more and hopefully handle one myself, in person. I will definitely check in withLeica SF or Seattle when I'm next in the area. And hey, maybe there is an SL-E in the future....I mean, they did eventually make an "economy" model of the S.
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Old 10-20-2015   #94
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The word Leica on the EVF bump, it just doesn't look right to me -- the spacing between the letters...

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Old 10-20-2015   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
Read Ming Thein's review. Focus peaking and magnification with the best EVF made. He says it makes the Sony A7Rii's look like peering through a straw.

Plenty to see here people. Including this nugget:

"M lenses are now virtually native, as are R lenses; they’re easy to focus and image quality is better than from the M cameras. "
I believe Sean Reid will show the M240 is better in the corners with some lenses.

Ming had the camera very little time, while Reid had it for months. But I agree Ming writes a very interesting preview.
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Old 10-20-2015   #96
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I'm interested.
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Old 10-20-2015   #97
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Originally Posted by 13Promet View Post
Either the guy handling it is a dwarf, or the camera is crazy large

I have to take back my yuck and say its more of a "ehh...hmm" since seeing it in proportion to a small person atleast...

The evf housing looks more reminiscent of the R series than in the flat image in the op.

Idk about that grip and large oled display...

The lenses are HUGE... A weird direction to go with a mirrorless indeed?
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Old 10-20-2015   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B-9 View Post
...
The lenses are HUGE... A weird direction to go with a mirrorless indeed?
It seems that most people here are equating "mirrorless" with "compact".

Leica is producing what is essentially a next-generation pro SLR replacement, not a compact systems camera, and seems to be going for broke to make the best performing optics possible. Just like with the R system, such lenses tend to be complex designs with meaty mounts in order to be strong enough to keep everything aligned properly while also standing up a good deal of abuse.

My 52 year old Summicron-R 50mm f/2 lens isn't huge, but is as big as a Nikkor 50/1.4 and weighs 20% more. After all this time, it's still in perfect alignment, works smooth as can be, and produces results as if I took it out of the box yesterday..

G
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Old 10-20-2015   #99
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I think Sony got it right, being a trendsetter for the design of mirror-less system cameras. Given the price of the new Leica (system) I am wondering which market they are targeting.
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Old 10-20-2015   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
It seems that most people here are equating "mirrorless" with "compact".

Leica is producing what is essentially a next-generation pro SLR replacement, not a compact systems camera, and seems to be going for broke to make the best performing optics possible. Just like with the R system, such lenses tend to be complex designs with meaty mounts in order to be strong enough to keep everything aligned properly while also standing up a good deal of abuse.

My 52 year old Summicron-R 50mm f/2 lens isn't huge, but is as big as a Nikkor 50/1.4 and weighs 20% more. After all this time, it's still in perfect alignment, works smooth as can be, and produces results as if I took it out of the box yesterday..

G
Well said Mr G

Leica has indeed has just redefined what a pro DSLR should be in 2015.

Like it or not gents this thing will be a hit.

I can see both Canon and Nikon rethinking their Pro camera designs. Neither of which have done anything exciting in decades. (flame suit on )
You have to give it to leica for a gutsy design and bold styling.

And I don't get the comparison to the Sony product. Clearly two different cameras aimed at different markets/buyers.
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Old 10-20-2015   #101
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Originally Posted by maddoc View Post
I think Sony got it right, being a trendsetter for the design of mirror-less system cameras. Given the price of the new Leica (system) I am wondering which market they are targeting.
... The Pro market which hasn't had anything innovative for a very long time.

Children will be sold to buy this camera... lol
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Old 10-20-2015   #102
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Originally Posted by YYV_146 View Post
The size is just insane. It has a larger footprint than some DSLRs. I can't even imagine putting a 35mm F2 ASPH or 24 Elmar on that thing.

If you're considering that size - and price range - already, why not just go for a S?

Leica, all you had to do was take the Q's lens off and replace it with a T mount to earn $4k of my money...instead, this.
When you put it that way, I'm genuinely amazed that Leica didn't do this.
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Old 10-20-2015   #103
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Leica has indeed has just redefined what a pro DSLR should be in 2015.
Are you sure about that? It needs an extra bit in there somewhere for that to be the case.

I doubt this'll come anywhere near penetrating the pro DSLR market, but we'll see.

As for exciting, when the D800 was announced with 36mp, that was pretty exciting. They (and/or Sony) leapfrogged the competition and did what was seemingly "impossible" - smashed the megapixel ceiling AND led the charge in expanding the DR and ISO capabilities of digital cameras. They didn't change the basic workings of the camera, because it's just about perfect...IMO.
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Old 10-20-2015   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
Leica is producing what is essentially a next-generation pro SLR replacement, not a compact systems camera, and seems to be going for broke to make the best performing optics possible. Just like with the R system, such lenses tend to be complex designs with meaty mounts in order to be strong enough to keep everything aligned properly while also standing up a good deal of abuse.

G
If you're comfortable with that size and price point, why not get a 645Z for a few hundred cheaper and enjoy the utmost image quality out of a digital camera as of October 2015?

I've shot with a 645D pretty extensively. The balance is superb with all but the largest Pentax glass. The camera is heavy but the massive grip and layout makes handling slightly less painful. There are world-class, $4,000 lenses for the system if you want those, and $400 spherical ones which are still tack sharp at F7.1-11, some of which will even do AF.

I'm usually a big fan of EVFs, but for anything this camera can do - the 645Z will likely do it better and at maybe 20% cheaper. Yes, it does 11 fps, but I can hardly imagine anyone shooting sports with contrast AF - it's just not reliable enough.


The 645z 45-85 combo is less than 300 grams, or 15% heavier than the SL and the "kit" zoom. The A7rII and the FE 24-70 is barely heavier than the 24-90 alone. The 24-90 is faster, but these days you can get a lot much punch for both less weight and money.

Edit: The S is a better comparison, but far more expensive ...I genuinely want an S. But I can't see myself paying $25,000 for one.
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Old 10-20-2015   #105
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When you put it that way, I'm genuinely amazed that Leica didn't do this.
I just sold my 15mm Distagon and woke up today thinking that if the ILC Q becomes reality, I would pre-order one right away. If not, the funds can go to an RX1II instead.

Looks like Sony will be selling one more RX1II...
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Old 10-20-2015   #106
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Originally Posted by sc_rufctr View Post
Leica has indeed has just redefined what a pro DSLR should be in 2015.
Maybe, but i doubt it.
The Pro boys with tens of thousands of dollars of cameras and lenses hanging around their necks at major events are not going to throw away their Canon/Nikon systems nor will their employers, just because Leica has reinvented the wheel.
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Old 10-20-2015   #107
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aint that the truth. yeah, they 'reinvented' large and unweildy equipment, 'reinvented' lack of on camera and on lens controls, and i guess 'reinvented' focus peaking as the sole mf aid. actually the only thing one can count on leica to 'reinvent' is pricepoint. in keeping with the Halloween season, i repeat the words of the great charlie brown: 'i got a rock!'. ARGHH! i really wanted this to BE something. it was like waiting for the latest stones album when i was a kid, waiting on line for hours, rushing home and the putting 'satanic majesties' on the turntable! double ARGHH!!
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Old 10-20-2015   #108
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Price? It compares with any pro system out there. (have you priced a 1Dx or D4s lately?)

Real world performance? We'll see but on paper it looks very good.

A new direction and it wouldn't be the first time the Pros have ditched their gear and moved over to another brand.
(think the Canon Nikon switch and back again)

Meanwhile Sony is still a contender. I bet they have some juicy gear in development.
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Old 10-20-2015   #109
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Will an EVF really ever replace an optical finder?

I struggle with that...
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Old 10-20-2015   #110
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Will an EVF really ever replace an optical finder?

I struggle with that...
I understand what you're saying but to younger photogs raised on smartphones and the internet it would be considered "normal".
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Old 10-20-2015   #111
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I thought Leica is going to pursue the Q line, perhaps with a 50mm model. But now they decide to take on Canon and Nikon. I wonder if this is the idea of Master Blackstone at the helm of the company.
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Old 10-20-2015   #112
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Im lost as to how this is at all groundbreaking...

Looks like another ugly piece of 2 day hype...

They definately could have done alot more with the styling alone... Ergonomics do not look good at all...

Come ye' naysayers join me in the flame
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Old 10-20-2015   #113
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Clone of Sony and even Fuji to me. And same ugliness. Was it done by Olympus first with OM-D?
But some people likes SLRs even without OVF...
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Old 10-20-2015   #114
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Im lost as to how this is at all groundbreaking...

Looks like another ugly piece of 2 day hype...

They definately could have done alot more with the styling alone... Ergonomics do not look good at all...

Come ye' naysayers join me in the flame
Can't join ya.

It's too early to tell for sure. I think Leica has hit on something some folks are actually wanting.

Just a couple weeks ago I started a thread begging Fuji to offer a pro mirrorless body for their X system lenses.
A full size body with a big butt battery and processor to deliver files without delay at any step of the workflow.
So far all the mirrorless offerings have been hampered by too small bodies with too small "sony guts".

This new camera looks like a great step in the right direction.
I Still hope Fuji follows with a simialr body for their smaller lenses and lighter weight image files.

It's a wild elfin bet. Lets see what happens.
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Old 10-20-2015   #115
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Maybe Fuji will hear your call in a Xpro II Andy?

Ide really like to see Fuji offer something new with a OVF!

I really liked the look of the XT-10, wish Leica would have opted for a more "nostalgiac" look and control layout. I guess the knobs and dials trend is losing momentum...
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Old 10-20-2015   #116
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If you're comfortable with that size and price point, why not get a 645Z for a few hundred cheaper and enjoy the utmost image quality out of a digital camera as of October 2015? ...
I owned and used Pentax 645 equipment for three or five years. I also currently own a complete set of Leica R lenses from 19 to 180 mm, and two Leicaflex SLs.

- When it comes to lens performance, the best of Pentax 645 lenses is quite good but doesn't hold a candle to what I get out of Leica R lenses. It was the size of the film compared to 35mm format that made a difference with Pentax 645 film gear. That difference collapses in the face of an excellent 24 Mpixel sensor vs an excellent 39 Mpixel sensor. The size of the sensor really contributes in largest measure to DoF control, which I'll give up a little bit of ... But I have faster R lenses that are more compact than 645 lenses.

- The size, weight, and proportions of the Leica SL are within a couple of millimeters and grams of the Leicaflex SL, which just happens to be, for me, one of the absolute best, most ergonomic cameras ever designed. It is to me a much more balanced and handy shape than any Pentax 645 has ever been, including the 645Z. All the Pentax 645s have been somewhat boxy and ungainly in the hand, and the lenses are large, heavy and expensive.

- Having had a good bit of experience with Pentax over the period from 2004 to 2010, I have to say I simply don't trust them for service and support. I've been dealing with Leica USA for almost forty years: They have always provided me with outstanding service and support.

Don't get me wrong, the 645Z is a fine camera and very reasonably priced for a medium format digital. But, for me, the Leica SL poses significant advantages and, since I only need a body, adapter, and a couple of batteries, will actually cost me less—only as much as my Leica M-P did, in fact. The Pentax would cost me twice that at least once I built a decent four to five lens system.

Of course, there's no way to measure "utmost image quality" in any absolute sense anyway, and the Leica SL hasn't shipped yet so doing comparisons isn't really possible at this time anyway. But I trust my R lenses through long familiarity, I trust Leica through long experience, and I can confidently say that I'm sure I'll be happier with an SL than. 645Z.

I'll be in the market for one in about two years. No need to rush or consider October 2015... :-)

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Old 10-20-2015   #117
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I owned and used Pentax 645 equipment for three or five years. I also currently own a complete set of Leica R lenses from 19 to 180 mm, and two Leicaflex SLs.

- When it comes to lens performance, the best of Pentax 645 lenses is quite good but doesn't hold a candle to what I get out of Leica R lenses. It was the size of the film compared to 35mm format that made a difference with Pentax 645 film gear. That difference collapses in the face of an excellent 24 Mpixel sensor vs an excellent 39 Mpixel sensor. The size of the sensor really contributes in largest measure to DoF control, which I'll give up a little bit of ... But I have faster R lenses that are more compact than 645 lenses.

-
Pentax film lenses, I agree. Have you tested any of the Pentax digital 645 lenses (designed for the 44*33 format)?

Those are amazing. Most hold their own against the Leica S lineup. And for the lowly price of $3-4k each.
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Old 10-20-2015   #118
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Pentax film lenses, I agree. Have you tested any of the Pentax digital 645 lenses (designed for the 44*33 format)?

Those are amazing. Most hold their own against the Leica S lineup. And for the lowly price of $3-4k each.
No, I haven't. However, how long have you been working around or with Pentax gear? I was promoting and selling Pentax gear in 1973 ... I seen a lot of great by reputation gear flow under the bridge through the years. I tried dozens of Pentax lenses over the years, both 35 and 645. Many were excellent, but where they always let me down compared to Nikon and Leica, and Olympus, was in their consistency.

I'm comfortable with what I have in lenses, and it won't cost me anything. :-)

G
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Old 10-20-2015   #119
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Price? It compares with any pro system out there. (have you priced a 1Dx or D4s lately?)
This has already been mentioned but you should go price those cameras right now yourself. They are $2-3,000 less. The price has fallen since release of course but they were still never quite that expensive and are also the top of the heap of a much larger system approach. Frankly a 24mp D750 (under $2,000) will likely match the Leica SL in pretty much every respect.
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Old 10-20-2015   #120
KM-25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrockit View Post
They do... but wow, that's a large mirrorless.

Out of control LOL!!

The SL + 24-90 is actually heavier than a D810 with the new 24-70 E lens.

This thing is ridiculous for a "mirrorless" camera....
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