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The M240's Successor - what would you like to see ?
Old 03-01-2015   #1
CameraQuest
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The M240's Successor - what would you like to see ?

Eventually Leica will introduce the M240's successor.

A separate thread is guessing when.

What new features or improvements would you like to see in it ?

Personally I would like to see -

a state of the art EVF add on digital visoflex
tilting / folding LCD
higher ISO quality
much improved menu interface
camera ability to recognize and follow voice commands
menu optionally controlled by a smart phone app
CMOS DNG files that look CCD DNG files
virtually crashproof camera software
framelines that change size with the focus distance for accurate framing
ability to dial in frame line focal lengths for oddball focal lengths
broadcasting file pics to a linked laptop or tablet

software that electronically crashes any Nikon, Canon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus camera within 10 feet distance
when video microphone picks up the phrase "is that a film camera?"

-- separate thread
When do you predict the M240's successor will be introduced?
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...d.php?t=147687


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Old 03-01-2015   #2
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not an owner of Leica DRF's...
But. looking at the current specs....
  • A new 24mp sensor with higher ISO Capabilities... OR, really clean ISO 6400
  • Flash Sync at 1/250 (though 1/180 is good for most)
  • Maybe 1/8000 top speed.. (Better than 1/4000 for using fast lenses wide open)
The specs are pretty good already... in my eyes.
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Old 03-01-2015   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
camera ability to recognize and follow voice commands
To quote from Dr Who "chap with wings there, five rounds, rapid!"
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Old 03-01-2015   #4
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Price and reliability. I take pictures for fun and if I'm going to invest so much money, I want the camera to be reliable and hold its value. Joe
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Old 03-01-2015   #5
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A digital camera will not hold its value relative to lenses. Leicas are somewhat better, but as Leica produces more M bodies, the number of used and demo copies of current and past models has increased significantly compared to the early-mid M9 period. My feeling is the market can only absorb so many $5000+ cameras.

As for the M240 replacement:

Deeper buffer (as good or better than M-P)
Robust, reliable electronics - no lockups.
Electronic shutter, preferably global, with shutter speed options shorter than 1/4000. (If a global shutter, it will mean silent operation.)
Improved live view and EVF.
A solution to allow simultaneous flash and EVF use without having to buy ~$1000 worth of accessories.
No high-ISO banding.
No weird green shadows currently found in ISOs 200-1000 due to some sort of black point clipping.
Lighter build without sacrificing durability and 'robust feel.'

Down the road:

Use of phase detect pixels to act as a focus confirm option in conjunction with RF patch.
Integrated optical and electronic viewfinders.
Thinner camera.
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Old 03-01-2015   #6
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I'm so happy with the M240, there are only a couple of little thing that wold be nice "upgrades".

1) Slightly better ISO performance, more dynamic range. (Less megapixels)
2) Image stabilization.
3) A simple, user serviceable rangefinder.
4) Slightly lighter without feeling hollow, and maybe slightly thinner than M240.
5) I don't know. Pink leather? Gold plated?
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Old 03-01-2015   #7
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A camera the size and weight of the M6 that can handle the basics just as well ... albeit in digital ...
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Old 03-01-2015   #8
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a full stop improved iso performance would be nice (truly usable iso 6400)

live view that supports focus point/magnification scrolling

articulating LCD screen, nice to have, but well down the list compared to the above items

the ccd v cmos thing is 'way overblown - not hard in post to get the files of the M240 quite close to the M9's, when one wants to do so.

the M240 overall seems pretty complete to me, as is
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Old 03-01-2015   #9
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Hi,

Id love to see a cloth shutter, better iso and slimmer body like original ms.

But above all...a better sensor that can withstand WA lenses.
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Old 03-01-2015   #10
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But I would definitely not want to see a return of the 1/50th sync speed...
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Old 03-01-2015   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramosa View Post
A camera the size and weight of the M6 that can handle the basics just as well ... albeit in digital ...
+1 or even a bit smaller
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Old 03-01-2015   #12
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-lighter
-thinner
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Old 03-01-2015   #13
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Not a DRF user, but in order to get me to consider it, it would need;

1. Reliable electronics - this's should be a given these days
2. Good WA performance, without the need to use corner fix etc - one of the best qualities of the traditional RF is the compact wide angles, if like to use them digitally.
3. That's all.

Stephen, is that really your wishlist for an M? What would you want an articulated screen for? If you want all that, get a mirror less camera. Keep the M simple.
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Old 03-02-2015   #14
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Address the blackout of the EVF after each exposure. It's only a second or so but it feels like forever! I gather it's a buffer issue?

Aside from that I find the camera perfect in it's current form.
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Old 03-02-2015   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramosa View Post
A camera the size and weight of the M6 that can handle the basics just as well ... albeit in digital ...
I was gonna say this. I'm not sure the 240 is the same size as the M8/M9 (but I reckon it is?) and it's just so big. It'd be nice if it was the size of a film M.
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Old 03-02-2015   #16
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Quote:
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I was gonna say this. I'm not sure the 240 is the same size as the M8/M9 (but I reckon it is?) and it's just so big. It'd be nice if it was the size of a film M.
It's the same basic profile but a bit fatter.

I agree - the shape and weight (700 grams) is really a pain in the hand.

Anyways, my laundry list:

1. EVF black out/quality/focus magnification off-center/refresh rates - a new and better EVF in general. The Leica T Visoflex finder is excellent. But maybe a bit more low profile if possible.

2. 1/8000s. Alternatively, a true iso 50 would do the job.

3. Ability to control brightness of LED framelines.

4. Something resembling a high speed continuous mode (6-7 fps)

5. Wifi/wireless tethering. I never thought I wanted wifi, until I owned a camera that had it.

6. Electronic front curtain/full sensor metering.

4 out of 6 and Leica can have my money for a new digital M. 3 out of 6 will prompt me to seriously consider one again...
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Old 03-02-2015   #17
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The current Leica M is already going beyond rangefinder still photography. The product road map probably maintains this direction. As the old design does not work very well in the new field, they need to consider changes. There is both a risk of losing too much of what makes the M work for many, and a risk of introducing a product that offers certain functionality but remains very compromised in using that functionality. Neither is a particularly desirable way, especially considering Leica's price point.

I would personally think of ways to improve customization and offer people choice within a single framework. Take the LCD screen for example. There is no technical reason the same body could not be available with either a fixed screen (for solid compactness) or an articulating screen (for more flexibility in video work etc.) to address customer preference. Both solutions absolutely have their place, and they are both compromises for some existing or potential users. (Even a no-screen version could easily be built, although it would hardly be as elegant as possible if the same basic frame were used.)

Customization is an expense and may create challenges in marketing and logistics. It is however an expense that many customers would be willing to cover. Even today Leica offers customization, but it is largely limited to cosmetics.
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Old 03-02-2015   #18
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M240p is complete for me
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Old 03-02-2015   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
Address the blackout of the EVF after each exposure. It's only a second or so but it feels like forever! I gather it's a buffer issue?

Aside from that I find the camera perfect in it's current form.
It feels so indeed. Reason I have set the review to "hold shutter release" which will replace the blackout with a frozen image. Much better and it will revert as soon as the camera is done.
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Old 03-02-2015   #20
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Perhaps its time for Leica to consider splitting the M platform.

For sure, they cannot stray too far from the existing M form factor for traditional models. (Though it would be nice if they could get the digital M's back into line with regard to size and reliability.)

A new "e-M" would eschew the optical range finder for a built-in EVF. (It would also be cheaper (by Leica standards) than traditional models due to the lower component count and easy assembly.)

The "electronic-M" does not have to be feature competitive with the Japanese MILC's. Its main functional requirement is a sensor that plays well with M lenses.

The e-M would expand the utility of the existing lens inventory and open up new markets for Leica. This model would be a "win-win" for both users and Leica.
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Old 03-02-2015   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tijmendal View Post
I was gonna say this. I'm not sure the 240 is the same size as the M8/M9 (but I reckon it is?) and it's just so big. It'd be nice if it was the size of a film M.
Pretty much the same until you put the M240 grip on it. Then the camera gains a small chunk of height against the M8/9.
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Old 03-02-2015   #22
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The more the photography market matures electronically, the least Leica becomes relevant. MP...Mechanical Precision...indeed this was the defining issue some 90 years ago. Today, large electronic concerns like Fuji, Samsung and Sony will take consumers to the next level.
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Old 03-02-2015   #23
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smaller body.. that's all I need..
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Old 03-02-2015   #24
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Quote:
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The more the photography market matures electronically, the least Leica becomes relevant. MP...Mechanical Precision...indeed this was the defining issue some 90 years ago. Today, large electronic concerns like Fuji, Samsung and Sony will take consumers to the next level.
At least to some level they wish to be on. I doubt many Leica M users have such a wish.
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Old 08-24-2016   #25
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As Photokina approaches, this thread gets more interesting.

The question is starting to become

"Will Leica make enough improvements to the M240 to convince most M240 family owners to switch to the newer cameras?"

Stephen
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Old 08-24-2016   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
As Photokina approaches, this thread gets more interesting.

The question is starting to become

"Will Leica make enough improvements to the M240 to convince most M240 family owners to switch to the newer cameras?"

Stephen

Good point. I'm completely satisfied with my 240.

And this is actually a wall that all digital camera manufacturers are fast approaching in my opinion.
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Old 08-24-2016   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post
"Will Leica make enough improvements to the M240 to convince most M240 family owners to switch to the newer cameras?"
Or "Will Leica make a digital M compelling enough to attract new photographers?"

The typ 262 cameras are almost there, as essentially digital versions of an M7. However, a good digital M7 also needs:

- a means to focus fast lenses accurately and reliably
- a means to calibrate focus without a service trip
- a better viewfinder (I wear glasses!!!)
- integrated sensor cleaning (because you do not change it every 36 shots!)
- complete reliability, backed-up by sane service times
- thinner and lighter bodies (though 262 is pretty good now)

None of these detract from the classic M form, and none of these are new (in that they have all existed for ~10 years in other cameras). What they do is recognise that digital is inherently different to film if you want the absolute best results.

Solving the focus problem is probably the hardest. However, Fuji has shown what can be done with a hybrid VF in the XPro2 - surely Leica in a $6000 camera can build something similar which retains the traditional RF but which also integrates electronic focusing aids?

I would be very happy if Leica would focus on the best still camera for digital negatives (drop video, jpegs, in-camera white-balance, etc) - they have the SL for these things. Will be interesting to see what they actually do...
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Old 08-24-2016   #28
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If it was 5 or 6 mm thinner and they went back to naturally illuminated framelines, I wouldn't care what else they did.
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Old 08-25-2016   #29
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Cheaper. Better.
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Old 10-06-2016   #30
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Sure, I think the list is easy for me
  • Images look like Kodachrome or Plus-X
  • Size, shape and weight of the film MP
  • Film leica reliability (no corrosion surprises, freezes, etc...)
  • Iso invariant up to 1,048,576 with no weird image quality issues (banding, etc...)

If Leica can iteratively approach this list with each successive update, then I think they're in the right direction.
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Old 10-06-2016   #31
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Bring it down to M2 size!
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Old 10-06-2016   #32
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Given the fact and excellence of the Leica SL, the ideal successor to the M/M-P typ 240 for me already exists: the M-D typ 262. It's a situation with the M that, for me, less is more because if I truly want or need more, I want the SL anyway.

The M-D is my perfect digital M: just what I need and nothing, NOTHING more.... accurate rangefinder, accurate meter, clear and simple ISO, aperture, exposure time settings, a lovely feel in the hand, and an excellent sensor. Aperture priority AE for convenience, lots of battery life. Nothing else needed or wanted.

The M-D is there; from there I just go make photographs and forget all the techno-babble.

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Old 10-06-2016   #33
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M 262 features (no more) and better low light performance. Agree about the M-D.

If I want all the stuff I'l go backk to DSLRs. I like having a real choice.
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Old 10-06-2016   #34
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Quote:
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  • Iso invariant up to 1,048,576 with no weird image quality issues (banding, etc...)

There's a sign of the times, if I ever seen one! Nothing wrong with clean high ISO, of course, just staggering what's now considered normal. I was looking at some old TMZ negatives and boy, what grain bombs they were!
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Old 10-06-2016   #35
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really, dont need or want much more than what the 240 series is today

A few things that would be nice that leica already knows how to do;
Native ISO of 50 like the SL
High ISO capability like the 246
A little lighter and a little thinner, maybe like the Q
And of course more DR if possible.

I wouldnt turn down a few more megapixels, but they really arent needed. Though similarly, I might specifically shy away from a camera if it has too many megapixels. Also I really dont want fluffy features like articulating lcds or built in evfs or IBIS or whatever.

And as far as my one pipe dream, maybe a dual magnification viewfinder window, like on the fuji xpro1.
Would be sweet to be able to change between .58x and .85x with the flick of a switch for example.
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Old 10-12-2016   #36
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I wish the frame lines for only the lens being used would show. I'm not keen on the cluttered look.
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Old 10-12-2016   #37
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I use an M-P. All I could really ask for is that it be sped up with a newer processor.
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Old 11-19-2016   #38
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thinner
*lighter*
higher shutter speed
a bit better high ISO?

Tilting screen would be a big plus...
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Old 11-20-2016   #39
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thinner
Now I'm so familiar with my M240, I'm starting to think my M3 is "too thin"

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Old 11-20-2016   #40
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Off center magnification in live view would be nice and a bit more latitude in exposure when using ISO 1000 and above. But both things are not important enough to buy a new camera.
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