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Old 10-17-2013   #41
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Definitely will happen but it takes time. Once Canon Nikon Fuji go into this realm, it's gonna be interesting. Look back the history, once entered the digital era, not a single company still alive other than Leica in 135mm

With that being said, Leica will be still alive but threatned..
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Old 10-17-2013   #42
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Originally Posted by judsonzhao View Post
Look back the history, once entered the digital era, not a single company still alive other than Leica in 135mm...
Nikon F6, Lomography, etc. but not much else.
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Old 10-17-2013   #43
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I think the google translation is somehow weak. The title is

Sony system cameras threaten the Leica niche.

I think what he wants to say is that Leica is not alone in the niche any more; i.e. that a digital non-SLR of a quality comparable to Leica is available now - and much cheaper.

That may be true (the author did not use the camera, it seems). I think however Leicas are bought for their handling, for their finder and manual focusing.

Therefore, whatever the share of collectors and other who buy because they are expensive and not despite it, there ARE good reasons for a Leica that nobody even tries to beat.

I changed to an M6 from analog Nikon SLRs (via D700). I love it for the handling. I could probably do as well with a Sony as with an M9 but I would not think of it for 1/125 of a second.
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Old 10-17-2013   #44
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Ah but Minolta (now part of Sony) certainly did.

Minolta built the "Sky" in 1957, but like Nikon, shelved it in favor of their SLR cameras. Minolta also built the CLE in 1981, which was certainly a true rangefinder.
You are right. I distinguish between Sony and Minolta. Minolta was a great manufacturer. And it is obvious, that Sony pushed into the market because of Minolta's KnowHow. I woulndt be surprised, if somithing like the a7 was one of Minoltas idea. My first digital camera was a Sony (F828) and I hated it. The viewfinder was ugly and camera was slow. A friend of mine had the EOS 20D at the same time. I sold the Sony and got a EOS 20D with a nice optical viewfinder.

Japaneee manufacturers don't use rangefinders, because they are too difficult to build. The only japanese manufacturer which builds rangefinders is Mamiya (Mamiya 7 II) and Cosina (Voigtländer Bessa III). Sony, Canon and somehow Nikon are mainly electronics corporations. Building a ramgefinder is
annoying for them, because every single camera needs to be checked and adjusted. A camera like the a7 is much easier to produce. Nobody cares, if the viewfinder LCD is 1/10 of a millimeter misaligned.
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Old 10-17-2013   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jschrader View Post
I think the google translation is somehow weak. The title is

Sony system cameras threaten the Leica niche.
It would have been more accurate to have captioned it

"New Type of Camera threatens the Leica Niche"

As I have posted elsewhere in other RFF theads these new Sonys are just the first of their type.

Nikon and Canon will be forced to market similar cameras to remain competitive. Likewise Fuji will have to move up to full frame in the FujiX system.

Its all just a matter of time,
and more competition and more choices!

Stephen
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Old 10-17-2013   #46
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Well I always thought Leica was about simplicity and shooting at a slower pace. The a7 doesn't fit the bill with that. It is what it is. But nothing will ever be a Leica killer. Who knows how the old Leica lenses will work on a Sony? I know I wasn't impressed with the NEX7 with Leica glass. I wouldn't buy the a7 specifically to use Leica lenses on it.
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Old 10-17-2013   #47
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Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Quite. And, at that point, enough people find that the Leica delivers enough "bang for the buck" to keep the company in business. "Bang for the buck" then pretty much ceases to be a rational argument, because everyone has a different view of "quality, user experience, IQ AND price"

Of course with the Leica you can add "prestige" to "quality, user experience, IQ AND price" but I don't think I'm deceiving myself when I say that I don't recall ever buying anything on the grounds of prestige. Except perhaps an engagement ring, once.

Cheers,

R.
And with Leica you can also add concern about the quality of the electronics, whether they get on with certain SD cards, massive dust issues and huge depreciation
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Old 10-17-2013   #48
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Originally Posted by ajramirez View Post
If Leica's future is so doomed then how come I cannot find a M (240) to buy anywhere?
They're out there. My wait time was about two weeks.
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Old 10-17-2013   #49
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A lot of truth there, even Leica has a hard time getting them right, and they don't stay right, or even survive shipping. It is a very complicated and delicate mechanism.
Yes, I had the same experience with my Mamiya 7 II. But thanks to their service the problem was solved within one week. I think Leica will offer the same service. Of course, this is not the ideal case.
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Old 10-17-2013   #50
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Originally Posted by GaryLH View Post

I really doubt we will c an RF based digital camera from a Japanese camera maker in the near future. I personally think that Fuji would have done it given their past history when they released the xp1.
Because from a technical point, the rangefinder isn't anylonger important for digital photography. Film has to protected from exposure. A sensor can be exposed at any time to record an image for the electronically viewfinder.
So a modern camera doesn't need a rangefinder - but I need it because I'm neither modern nor digitally
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http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137308
Old 10-17-2013   #51
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http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137308

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Originally Posted by rbelyell View Post
i want to invite you as my guest to the next series of high stakes horse races in my area. with your ability to predict the future, we will both clean up! ):
The main topic was "threat to Leica..".
I in no way predicted the future.

Sony doesn't support older* equipment.

From personal experience, something that was a bit over,
a year old, was marked as obsolete and not repairable.
Reason it was 5 years older in Japan.
Sony will no doubt be successful.

No matter how successful, it is NOT a Leica.
Sorry.
Horse races, like the Stock Exchange, Beauty Pageants and
Sport competitions are all rigged/fixed.

I don't watch sports or gamble..
TY for the invite.

Are you a Leica user? I am. They are not perfect.
They are special.
That specialty is not a list of specifications, but a feel.
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Old 10-17-2013   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmonaut View Post
Well I always thought Leica was about simplicity and shooting at a slower pace..
I get the simplicity point but I disagree w/ slower pace. To me slower pace is more of a mind set not really a function of the camera itself. Granted some cameras force a slower pace like a 4x5... But I have seen people snapping pictures left and right w/ a Leica at a fairly good clip...

Gary
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Old 10-17-2013   #53
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And with Leica you can also add concern about the quality of the electronics, whether they get on with certain SD cards, massive dust issues and huge depreciation
Dear David,

Well, you can, anyway. I just take pictures with mine. Which is what I bought 'em for.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 10-18-2013   #54
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I am always amused that new rangefinder users feel "Leica was about simplicity and shooting at a slower pace."
Well, I am a fairly new rangefinder user, and for me rangefinder cameras are very much about speed.
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Old 10-18-2013   #55
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Another very interesting post at FM

Quote:
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Quote:
snapsy wrote:
Zeiss working on lenses for the A7(r):

Q: Will the ZM lenses be available for E mount (autofocus I suppose) or do you plan to develop new lenses specially suited to digital photography for it?

A: We are currently working on manual focus lenses for these new full-frame CSCs. They will have an interface to provide EXIF data to the camera. They are expected to be in stores by the end of 2014. However, we cannot provide any additional infos right now.

Source:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater
That's pretty wild that they are working on manual focus lenses.
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Old 10-18-2013   #56
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There is/was a market for Leica, that makes/made pricing irrelevant. But, that scheme is based on Leica's legacy and its history. A great many people buy Leicas because they're buying into legitimacy — those people are aware of the heritage of the film cameras. But, those people are getting older every day, and two things accompany that age: eyesight fails, and AF becomes more and more attractive; and younger and younger buyers dominate the marketplace. Fewer 20 year olds in the next generation will revere the Leica marque than did 10 years ago. The kids don't care about HC-B, and at some point, it'll be only the kids — and their kids — who are buying cameras. Heck, the kids today don't even remember what cell phones were like before the iPhone.

Leica is no longer competing in the same arena as when they offered the M6-MP, where they could claim "mechanical perfection" and "hand-built" and all that. It's now all about the sensor, and Leica isn't likely to ever be at the leading edge of sensor design/implementation.

At some point, the sensor is more important than the lens. Further, at some point, consumers will figure out that their images don't benefit from the theoretical 2% advantage of a Leica lens, and will balk at paying the additional $4,000 to walk around with the theory.
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Old 10-18-2013   #57
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When you quit trying to focus them, and set them at 10 feet and f8, they speed up a lot.
+1. Been waiting for someone to say that.

Gary
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Old 10-18-2013   #58
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When you quit trying to focus them, and set them at 10 feet and f8, they speed up a lot.
It's not just that. It has a lot to do with the intuitiveness of the focusing aid. And many lenses are very quick to focus. Some others really require prefocus for fast shooting. You pick the lens for the job.
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Old 10-18-2013   #59
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Get ahead of the curve. Sell that old outdated M9-MM-M240 body now on ebay at a bargain price before it plummets in value below the price of a new Sony A7... Then buy an A8r next year, and pocket a few grand for more Leica glass. Win/win.

Sardonic humor?
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Old 10-18-2013   #60
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Originally Posted by CK Dexter Haven View Post
. . . At some point, the sensor is more important than the lens. Further, at some point, consumers will figure out that their images don't benefit from the theoretical 2% advantage of a Leica lens, and will balk at paying the additional $4,000 to walk around with the theory.
Especially if your pictures are rotten, and all you care about is corner-to-corner sharpness.

At another point, what counts is whether the camera feels like an extension of your hand end eye. Maybe that's one of the factors keeping Leica in business, and the sensor and the lenses are secondary. .

Cheers,

R.
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Old 10-18-2013   #61
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Leica killer= long time Leica users jumping ship to Sony and cutting into Leica sales. It will never happen.

Quote:
To paraphrase Bill Clinton -- what do you mean by "killer?

The Nikon F put Leica into the emergency room.

I am always amused that new rangefinder users feel "Leica was about simplicity and shooting at a slower pace."

I used a rangefinder because it was faster to frame and shoot, especially with wide angle lenses than an SLR. There is nothing "slow" about a rangefinder. I have used motor drives on both Nikon and Leica rangefinders. Rangefinders are only "slow" if one is worried about film cost. Before there was digital I never thought about film cost, it cost what it cost.

Of course autofocus could make a rangefinder much faster, and it may be the lack of autofocus you are referring to?



The impact of the early M8 is sadly hard for Leica to shake? Time to let go -- since it appears the new models work as well as any product on the market.

But I admit the M8 certainly spooked many of my friends.
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Old 10-18-2013   #62
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I do not get the excitement by many people here.
It is just another (digital) camera. There will be each year a new camera on the market.
Calm down. Make photos.
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Old 10-18-2013   #63
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I don't think the A7/7r will have any effect on Leica whatsoever. I do think, however, that they WILL have an effect on all other systems. A compact, Full Frame ILC camera? This is a first, especially being in the Sony E-Mount, which is probably the most versatile mount around atm.

I'm looking fwd to it =o]
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Old 10-18-2013   #64
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Originally Posted by raid View Post
I do not get the excitement by many people here.
It is just another (digital) camera. There will be each year a new camera on the market.
Calm down. Make photos.
I think you already have an FF digital body for all those sweet lenses of yours. Most of us don't. Current options are not great in one way or the other.

For the first time in digtal history we have a FF option to Leica for RF glass.

Just another camera? Hardly. Open up the aperture, man. Right now you are at like, F/32.

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Old 10-18-2013   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
I do not get the excitement by many people here.
It is just another (digital) camera. There will be each year a new camera on the market.
Calm down. Make photos.

I don't think it can be described as just another digital camera Raid. The fact that it's an interchangable lens full frame compact sort of separates it from the rest IMO.

Others will now follow of course!
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Old 10-18-2013   #66
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I understand, Keith, but others will follow, and this camera will not be important anymore.
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Old 10-18-2013   #67
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Will it or won't it?
The sony a7series look promising and IF Leica lenses perform to a higher standard on these cameras as opposed to the m240 they will definitely have an impact on Leica sales.
But are they the proverbial dump on Leica's front lawn? I guess we'll find out soon.
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Old 10-18-2013   #68
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I doubt that the Sony 7/&r will harm Leica - but it will put pressure on the lens supply for M and other lenses which will have adapters for it. The fact is that you can get a 24mp, full frame M-lens compatible body for 1/5th of the price of a M240 will make it attractive. The EVIL viewfinder is a drawback - but for a saving of $5000 I think I can live with it. It would never become my primary camera - but it is small enough to stick in the bag with the film M's.
The 36 mp version scares me - my computer can handle the 24mp - but would probably crash and burn with the larger file size - and I don't really need it.
It will become a bit of a "game changer" - if it is successful (and I think it will be - price is too attractive for the fence sitters no to jump at) it will force companies like Olympos and Fuji to match the performance pretty soon. My experience with various Sony's was always their rather clumsy menu system. i don't want to spend days trying to figure out things. If I require more than an hour or two to get it to do what I want - I loose interest. Will be very interesting to see its performance in mono-chrome too.
The M240 buyers are set to get their Leica - however good the Sony is - but there will be more demand for high quality lenses for the Sony (36mp or even 24 mp will take no prisoners when it comes to image quality). The 36mp version is probably the only system currently available that will show what a 50 Summicron Asph can do! You can almost buy the 36mp version AND the 50f2 Asph for what a M240 costs today!!!!
I take my hat of to Sony for doing it - and keeping the price reasonable too.
Leica is no longer the "pro" camera of choice (except some few users) - it is more of a "bragging right" product - and thats OK if it benefits Leica and their R and D in the factory. Of course, a Noctilux or Nokton 50 f1.1 with the Sony's higher usable iso, focus peeking etc is attractive - particularly as the winter darkness is coming!
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Old 10-18-2013   #69
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I agree with Roger in that digital Leicas are not just bought because people either (a) misguidedly think they are best or (b) want a status symbol. As hard as this is to believe, some buy them because they are technically good enough, while delivering a user experience that (for some) strongly encourages the act of photography and the improves quality of the results.

Thew new Sony does not threaten Leica as such, but may steal M240 sales with those fed up of waiting. The A7 series may also steal sales from those who want amazing quality in a small package and are not too bothered about rangefinders and the true manual focus feel. This latter point is still an area where Leica does lead the way and why Leica has not been quick to give up on the costly and finicky RF viewfinder. It is also where Fuji is potentially dangerous, but both Sony and Fuji have their pros and cons.

Were Sony or Fuji to produce a FF camera of this kind with an optical finder of the size and quality of the Leica, that was designed around compatibility with M lenses and the flange focal distance entailed (as well as their own lenses), I do think Leica would be in trouble. Were they to build it with a truly premium shell, keep the menus and buttons simple and price it at perhaps $3,000- $3,500, very few Leica fans would not look elsewhere, because the utility requirements would be met. But they haven't and the difference between my MM and the new Sony is still substantial.

That said, I am very interested in the Sony because I do not have a small FF interchangeable lens colour camera and cannot afford a M240 on top of the MM I already have. If I do get one, there would be a slender possibility I would then sell the MM, but have a strong feeling that the relationship between me, the camera and subjects would not feel the same without the optical finder and so would keep the Leica for the majority of my work.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Especially if your pictures are rotten, and all you care about is corner-to-corner sharpness.

At another point, what counts is whether the camera feels like an extension of your hand end eye. Maybe that's one of the factors keeping Leica in business, and the sensor and the lenses are secondary. .

Cheers,

R.
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Old 10-19-2013   #70
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Originally Posted by Tom A View Post
I doubt that the Sony 7/&r will harm Leica - but it will put pressure on the lens supply for M and other lenses which will have adapters for it. The fact is that you can get a 24mp, full frame M-lens compatible body for 1/5th of the price of a M240 will make it attractive. The EVIL viewfinder is a drawback - but for a saving of $5000 I think I can live with it. It would never become my primary camera - but it is small enough to stick in the bag with the film M's.

The 36 mp version scares me - my computer can handle the 24mp - but would probably crash and burn with the larger file size - and I don't really need it.

It will become a bit of a "game changer" - if it is successful (and I think it will be - price is too attractive for the fence sitters no to jump at) it will force companies like Olympos and Fuji to match the performance pretty soon. My experience with various Sony's was always their rather clumsy menu system. i don't want to spend days trying to figure out things. If I require more than an hour or two to get it to do what I want - I loose interest. Will be very interesting to see its performance in mono-chrome too.

The M240 buyers are set to get their Leica - however good the Sony is - but there will be more demand for high quality lenses for the Sony (36mp or even 24 mp will take no prisoners when it comes to image quality). The 36mp version is probably the only system currently available that will show what a 50 Summicron Asph can do! You can almost buy the 36mp version AND the 50f2 Asph for what a M240 costs today!!!!

I take my hat of to Sony for doing it - and keeping the price reasonable too.

Leica is no longer the "pro" camera of choice (except some few users) - it is more of a "bragging right" product - and thats OK if it benefits Leica and their R and D in the factory. Of course, a Noctilux or Nokton 50 f1.1 with the Sony's higher usable iso, focus peeking etc is attractive - particularly as the winter darkness is coming!
A perfectly sensible summary.
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Old 10-19-2013   #71
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I noticed this comment on LUF
""I put my Zeiss ZM 21mm ƒ/2.8 on the A7r we have here [Luke works at Imaging-Resource —Ed.]. I'm sad to report that color shifts were severe and covered most of the frame. There was also severe darkening of the image away from the center, way too much to simply call vignetting. I chose this lens carefully, based on the experience of other users, to avoid this problem with my early NEX cameras."
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Old 10-19-2013   #72
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Quoting jsrockit:
"The 36 mp version scares me - my computer can handle the 24mp - but would probably crash and burn with the larger file size - and I don't really need it."

This is one of the recurring concern is so hard to understand for me
I am currently working with a composite file made of four scanned photos, one 6x9 and 3 35 mm with a old CS4 on a 2008 PC (32 bit) and the file is about 1 Gb. No problem at all. For back-up I use a Samsung 1 Tera minuscule drive that takes energy from the USB connection.
Because I am very old I wish I could by a 100 Mpix 7r now, I am afraid hat when it will come it could be too late for me
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Old 10-19-2013   #73
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nah I reckon this is probably good news for leica, they will sell more lenses.
they may or may not lose some body sales (depending on how good the sony is with RF wides, I suspect it won't be as good as an M) but I dont think bodies is where the profit is anyway.
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Old 10-19-2013   #74
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To tell the trouth - I had been thinking about saving money for a Leica M240 to use it with my Canon FD and Voigtländer Bessamatic glas.
Now this plan is gone!
This new Sony makes my dream come trough to use this glas again with its normal view and keep the NEX-5 as a teleconverter.
Now I realy can have a digital analogue system which uses the glas I have insted of buying a Nikon or whatever DSLR and Film body and lenses.
It was good to keep all this stuff when the prices droped and everybody said get rid of it!
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Old 10-19-2013   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pistach View Post
Quoting jsrockit:
"The 36 mp version scares me - my computer can handle the 24mp - but would probably crash and burn with the larger file size - and I don't really need it."

This is one of the recurring concern is so hard to understand for me
I am currently working with a composite file made of four scanned photos, one 6x9 and 3 35 mm with a old CS4 on a 2008 PC (32 bit) and the file is about 1 Gb. No problem at all. For back-up I use a Samsung 1 Tera minuscule drive that takes energy from the USB connection.
Because I am very old I wish I could by a 100 Mpix 7r now, I am afraid hat when it will come it could be too late for me
Cheers
Paolo
Not sure why you linked my name to this quote, but I did not say it.
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Old 10-19-2013   #76
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Is it human nature, when prices are high, and we don't understand why anyone would "waste" money, that we see other's choices as frivolous?
I think what you described is one of what they call "cognitive biases." It is part of the things that influence our reasoning.
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Old 10-19-2013   #77
35mmdelux
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Let's wait and see how many photojournalists run with the Sony--
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Old 10-19-2013   #78
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This is better, that is better. Seems to me that if your photography is motivated by a better picture from one day to the next, you will never be happy with your photographs. As surely as the sun rises tomorrow, the cameras of tomorrow will be better than the cameras of today. What is the purpose of your photography? Posterity, memories, art, megapixels? Theads like this lead me to despair...
There is no question about it.. A never ending loop of nonsense..Most folks out there just like cameras cause..but they actually aren't really doing anything with them. Like investigating, creating, discovering... There are very few people truly doing something with a camera that makes me want to look at the images..
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Old 10-19-2013   #79
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Originally Posted by 35mmdelux View Post
Let's wait and see how many photojournalists run with the Sony--
considering the A7r + LAEA4 gives very very fast AF, and sigma is soon to release the 24-70 constant f/2 in alpha, this camera may see alot more use than the average 5D user imagines.

For some the urge to piss on any parade which happens to wander on to their street is just irresistible, and precludes rational consideration. Each digital M was trashed here by many early on. Now not so much. So there must be some pent up resentment.

"oh others will follow and we will all forget this thing"

This project was cancelled twice. You may have a long wait for the next short register FF with every adapter known to man ready to go.

The nile is a very very long river, and the current is slooooow.
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Old 10-19-2013   #80
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A big drawback to the Sony A7 or A7r is the very loud shutter. Reminds me of the Leica M8. I am astonished that a camera released in 2013 would have such a loud shutter.
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