Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Classic Film RangeFinders & Other Classics > FSU Former Soviet Union RF

FSU Former Soviet Union RF This forum is for the Former Soviet Union rangefinder cameras, especially the many and various Fed, Zorki, and Kiev.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

FSU lenses in M39 mount for SLR cameras
Old 12-31-2016   #1
Joao
Negativistic forever
 
Joao's Avatar
 
Joao is offline
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 38.40.807N 9.09.499' W
Posts: 761
FSU lenses in M39 mount for SLR cameras

Hello
I am trying to clarify a few points concening FSU lenses for SLR cameras in M39 mount.
I have four lenses in M39 mount
Industar 50 3,5/50, Tair 11 2,8/133, Helios 44 2/58 and Mir 1 2,8/37 (Grand Prix Brussels); there is also an Industar-22 3,5/50 but I dont have it.
These lenses can be used in the Kristal, in the Zenits S, 3 and 3M.

My doubts:
1) Can these lenses be used also in the early M39 versions of Zenit E and Zenit B ?
2) Are there other M39 lenses for the above mentioned SLR cameras ?
3) Are there other cameras (including non-FSU cameras) that can use these lenses ?

Thank you in advance for your input

Regards

Joao
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-31-2016   #2
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
 
davidnewtonguitars's Avatar
 
davidnewtonguitars is offline
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Beaumont, TX
Posts: 505
Hi Joao,
This site has the best guide to the FSU lenses and what they fit.
http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?358713866
__________________
Leica M2 /Leica Standard Ie /Retina IIa
5cm Summitar f2 /5cm Elmar 3.5 /5cm M Elmar 2.8
http://davidnewtonguitars.squarespace.com/
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-31-2016   #3
Thomas78
Registered User
 
Thomas78 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Dren, Germany
Age: 39
Posts: 785
All M42 SLR should be able to use M39 lenses with a simple adapter.
I have a Jupiter 9 on a Ricoh TLS 401





Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk Pro
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-31-2016   #4
johnf04
Registered User
 
johnf04 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Age: 67
Posts: 280
The M39 versions of the Zenit B and E will use these lenses. I once had a Helios M42 thread 58mm lens machined with an M39 thread, to fit a Zenit 3m, and it works fine.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-31-2016   #5
Steve M.
Registered User
 
Steve M. is offline
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,434
There is a big difference in rangefinder lenses and SLR lenses in the film to lens distances. A Zenit w/ a Leica rangefinder M39 lens will not get infinity. It will just be for macro. There are two different M39 lenses. One type is for the Zenits (same registration as the m42 lenses) and then there is the M39 Leica type for rangefinders. You can use SLR lenses on rangefinder cameras w/ an adapter (but they will be zone focus), but to mount a M39 Leica type lens on a SLR it would have to go inside the mirror box.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-31-2016   #6
johnf04
Registered User
 
johnf04 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Age: 67
Posts: 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M. View Post
There is a big difference in rangefinder lenses and SLR lenses in the film to lens distances. A Zenit w/ a Leica rangefinder m39 lens will not get infinity. It will just be for macro. There are two different M39 lenses. One type is for the Zenits (same registration as the m42 lenses) and then there is the M39 Leica type for rangefinders. You can use SLR lenses on rangefinder cameras w/ an adapter (but they will be zone focus), but to mount a M39 Leica type lens on a SLR it would have to go inside the mirror box.
Joao is asking about the register of 39mm mount lenses made for Russian slrs, and whether it is the same as M42 lenses. These are not rangefinder lenses.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-31-2016   #7
pschauss
Registered User
 
pschauss is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 562
Joao,

Some that I have:
- Helios 40 - 85mm/1.5 - This is, as you might expect, a very heavy lens. I have used it with an M42 adapter on my Prakticas.
- Jupiter 11 - presumably the same optics as the LTM version.
- MTO - This is a 500 mm/f8.0 mirror lens. The version that I have is an M39 mount, but it came with an M42 adapter which is how I have used it.

I have not used these lenses in several years but I remember that one of them, probably the Helios 40, did not quite focus to infinity on my Prakticas. Since I did not normally use this lens wide open for distance shots it did not make a noticeable difference in my prints.

The MTO lens actually focuses beyond infinity which, I understand, is because it is temperature sensitive.

The Helios 40 and Jupiter 11 lenses are known as preset lenses. After metering, you preset the aperture with one ring and then turn a second ring on the barrel to actually stop the lens down to the aperture that you have selected. This allows you to focus with the lens wide open.
__________________
- Peter Schauss
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-01-2017   #8
Joao
Negativistic forever
 
Joao's Avatar
 
Joao is offline
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 38.40.807N 9.09.499' W
Posts: 761
Thank you all for your answers, which provided the information I was looking for. The information about theses lenses in the usual sources is very scattered and is not easy to put it together.
Excluding the use of adapters (and keeping out of the rangefinder's field) are there any non-FSU SLR cameras with M39 mount that accept these lenses ?? In other words, is this SLR M39 mount an exclusive of FSU SLR cameras ?

Thank you again

Joao
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-01-2017   #9
Dwig
Registered User
 
Dwig's Avatar
 
Dwig is offline
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Key West, FL, USA
Posts: 1,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M. View Post
There is a big difference in rangefinder lenses and SLR lenses in the film to lens distances. A Zenit w/ a Leica rangefinder M39 lens will not get infinity. It will just be for macro. There are two different M39 lenses. One type is for the Zenits (same registration as the m42 lenses) and then there is the M39 Leica type for rangefinders. You can use SLR lenses on rangefinder cameras w/ an adapter (but they will be zone focus), but to mount a M39 Leica type lens on a SLR it would have to go inside the mirror box.
The Leica RF lenses, and all properly made similar lenses, are NOT M39 thread mounts. They are properly termed LTM (Leica Thread Mount) and use a mix of specs. The diameter is metric at 39mm, but the thread is an inch based British standard at 26tpi. This differs from the 1mm pitch (25.4tpi) that the M39 SLR lenses use. There is also a slight difference in the thread's profile.

The M39 SLR lenses use the same register (flange to film distance) as the later M42 so a simple thread adapter works fine.
__________________
----------
Dwig
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-01-2017   #10
David Hughes
Registered User
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,063
Interestingly enough, the (?)Zorki instruction manual that I'm thinking of says the thread is M39 x 1mm and I vaguely remember reading that Zorki's registration is 28.8mm; that's the sort of thing said to suggest FED's are not but who knows? I just wish I could find the book/manual with it in but I've a heap of them and only 24hrs in the day...

EDIT; no sooner had I typed that when I wondered if there was a difference between pre-war and post-war lenses. Heaven only knows how we'll get the answer to that and this line will start an internet rumour that will be a fact once repeated a few times.

Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-01-2017   #11
Dwig
Registered User
 
Dwig's Avatar
 
Dwig is offline
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Key West, FL, USA
Posts: 1,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Interestingly enough, the (?)Zorki instruction manual that I'm thinking of says the thread is M39 x 1mm and I vaguely remember reading that Zorki's registration is 28.8mm; that's the sort of thing said to suggest FED's are not but who knows? I just wish I could find the book/manual with it in but I've a heap of them and only 24hrs in the day...

EDIT; no sooner had I typed that when I wondered if there was a difference between pre-war and post-war lenses. Heaven only knows how we'll get the answer to that and this line will start an internet rumour that will be a fact once repeated a few times.

Regards, David
There are numerous threads here and elsewhere discussing the occasional old FSU RF lens that doesn't fit true LTM mount bodies properly. While some of the issues may be thread profile differences (angles and amount of flat area at the top and bottom of the threads), some turn out to be pitch differences were the old FSU lenses are 1mm pitch instead of 26tpi.

I've seen a very few East German M42 lenses that failed to fit Japanese bodies due to thread profile differences. These had the 1mm pitch the Japanese bodies expected, but had less flat areas at the top of the male thread and would bind on the Japanese body. Slight filing of the top of the threads allowed them to fit the Japanese body without preventing them from still fitting their original mating East German body.
__________________
----------
Dwig
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-01-2017   #12
geoffox23
Registered User
 
geoffox23 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joao View Post
In other words, is this SLR M39 mount an exclusive of FSU SLR cameras ?

Joao
To the best of my knowledge - Yes

(And the flange focal distance is 45.2mm, whereas M42 is 45.5mm)

Cheers
Geoff
__________________
FED, Zorki., Drug, Leningrad, Kiev + abundant lenses.
Kodak Retina IIc
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-01-2017   #13
Joao
Negativistic forever
 
Joao's Avatar
 
Joao is offline
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 38.40.807N 9.09.499' W
Posts: 761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwig View Post
The M39 SLR lenses use the same register (flange to film distance) as the later M42 so a simple thread adapter works fine.
Geoff (Quote) "...(And the flange focal distance is 45.2mm, whereas M42 is 45.5mm)..."

So the adapter compensates for the .3 mm difference; I guess that if I want to swap the lens mount ring from a M39 original body to an original M42 body I may theoretically expect some loss of sharpness.

Thank you again

Joao
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-01-2017   #14
peterm1
Registered User
 
peterm1's Avatar
 
peterm1 is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,179
Someone mentioned m42 lenses on LTM. I have an m42 to LTM adapter that I use quite a lot although it must be used it with zone focused wide angle lenses since there is no rangefinder coupling. I did find at some point that it was a tiny bit too thick (which prevented proper distance estimation) and carefully removed some of this thickness by rubbing the base of the adapter ring on a sheet of emery paper (where it bears against the base of the M42 lens). This was easy to do so long as care was taken. I found the amount to remove by using a list of camera flange (also sometimes called register) distances found on the internet then by comparing the M42 distance to the M39 distance. Finding the correct thickness of the adapter involved simple subtraction of one from the other. as mine was a tiny bit thicker than this it was a simple matter to correct it. It is now spot on.

I also use it sometimes to adapt an M42 lens to use on a micro 4/3 camera. I do this by stacking adapters - m42 to LTM adapter + LTM to Leica M adapter + Leica M to M4/3 adapter. I do this because although I have a direct M42 to M4/3 adapter its diameter is quite large so it looks odd when used with smaller bodied lenses like say the Pentax Takumar 35mm f3.5. So it is more of an aesthetic thing than anything else. And because I can :^)
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-01-2017   #15
geoffox23
Registered User
 
geoffox23 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joao View Post
Geoff (Quote) "...(And the flange focal distance is 45.2mm, whereas M42 is 45.5mm)..."

So the adapter compensates for the .3 mm difference; I guess that if I want to swap the lens mount ring from a M39 original body to an original M42 body I may theoretically expect some loss of sharpness.

Thank you again

Joao
No, the M39-M42 adapter is a simple ring that screws onto M39 thread.

I'm not sure about the second part of the question, you will have to experiment

But apart from adapter rings, some lenses were made with interchangable M39 and M42 mounts and were marked "A". eg Jupiter-37A and MIR-1A. The mount ring was held on by 3 screws, and swapping these rings allowed for the difference in focal distance.

Cheers
Geoff
__________________
FED, Zorki., Drug, Leningrad, Kiev + abundant lenses.
Kodak Retina IIc
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-01-2017   #16
Dwig
Registered User
 
Dwig's Avatar
 
Dwig is offline
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Key West, FL, USA
Posts: 1,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joao View Post
Geoff (Quote) "...(And the flange focal distance is 45.2mm, whereas M42 is 45.5mm)..."

So the adapter compensates for the .3 mm difference; I guess that if I want to swap the lens mount ring from a M39 original body to an original M42 body I may theoretically expect some loss of sharpness.

Thank you again

Joao
The adapters don't adjust for any register distance difference.

Many of the charts I've seen list the M39 at the same 45.5mm registers as the M42. If the lenses are actually built for 45.3 then they would fail to quite focus to infinity when adapted to M42. Sharpness would not be affected in any way at distances to which they could focus.

Such an error is extremely minor and likely of little or no consequence with 50mm and longer lenses and likely to fall with the sample to sample variance from body to body and lens to lens. The error would be effectively greater the wider the lens, but even a 35mm lens would probably focus close enough to infinity for DOF to cover at f/8 and smaller.
__________________
----------
Dwig
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-02-2017   #17
Joao
Negativistic forever
 
Joao's Avatar
 
Joao is offline
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 38.40.807N 9.09.499' W
Posts: 761
So, as far as I understand from the previous answers:

1)There might be a difference in the flange-film distance of M39 and M42 lenses
2)This difference (0.3 mm) has no practical importance

Things are clear to me now.

Thank you once more

Joao
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-02-2017   #18
David Hughes
Registered User
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,063
Hi,

Most M39 and M42 mounts on SLR's are on very elderly cameras and focussing would be done manually on screen. The minor difference in registration doesn't really matter since allowing for the DoF at - so called - infinity, it just doesn't have any effect. I'd guess that about 30 ft to infinity looks the same and is in reality.

As for the M39 SLR's the only ones I know of were the early Zenits, which were made by adding a mirror box to a Zorki and shortening the lens barrel to allow for it. Look on ebay and you'll see lots of examples of the Industar-50 in two or three body variations and it's very easy to spot the short (SLR) and long (RF) rigid versions. Try ebay item 262788791564 to see some side by side.

Or go to:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lot-of-3-I...cAAOSw2xRYX8Hb

if you can't find it by the item number.

Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-02-2017   #19
Joao
Negativistic forever
 
Joao's Avatar
 
Joao is offline
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 38.40.807N 9.09.499' W
Posts: 761
David
Thank you for your reply.
As you can see from my initial post I have four M39 lenses for SLRs: Industar 50 3,5/50, Tair 11 2,8/133, Helios 44 2/58 and Mir 1 2,8/37 (Grand Prix Brussels). These cover my needs quite well. I was just trying to find out if there were other M39 lenses as the descriptions of lenses from that time are not always clear - some lenses were made in both versions. Some replies added a few more models I was no aware of.
Concernig M39 cameras I had a Zenit E M39 (sold) and I still have and use a Zenit 3M and a Kristal. Recently I purchased a Zenit C (or S) with a problematic shutter (I am currently trying to fix it).

I am still intrigued by the fact that the only SLR cameras using M39 mount were from the FSU. Why did they choose that option ???
Probably this question will remain unanswered...

Regards
Joao
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-02-2017   #20
johnf04
Registered User
 
johnf04 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Age: 67
Posts: 280
Joao - the reason for the M39 mount is probably related to David's post above. When the Zorki was modified, they kept the lens mount.
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-02-2017   #21
Joao
Negativistic forever
 
Joao's Avatar
 
Joao is offline
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 38.40.807N 9.09.499' W
Posts: 761
Changing the camera but keeping the lens mount... yes, it seems possible.

Regards

Joao
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-02-2017   #22
David Hughes
Registered User
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,063
Hi,

These might help:-









As you can see, they really were modifying a Zorki 1 to make a Zenit. Pretty much the same way that Oskar Barnack might have used ready made microscope parts to make the first version of his camera.

Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-02-2017   #23
geoffox23
Registered User
 
geoffox23 is offline
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joao View Post
Changing the camera but keeping the lens mount... yes, it seems possible.

Regards

Joao
If you need more proof, see http://www.g-st.ch/privat/kameras/zenit.html for the full Zenit story. (use Google Translate)

Cheers
Geoff
__________________
FED, Zorki., Drug, Leningrad, Kiev + abundant lenses.
Kodak Retina IIc
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-02-2017   #24
johnf04
Registered User
 
johnf04 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Age: 67
Posts: 280
A very interesting read, Geoff. Thank you.
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-03-2017   #25
David Hughes
Registered User
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,063
This is also interesting and also in German:-

http://www.g-st.ch/privat/kameras/pdf/zenitbuch.pdf

And I wish I'd read them before buying cameras to satisfy my curiosity about the Zenit looking so like the Zorki, years ago.

Regards, David
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-03-2017   #26
Joao
Negativistic forever
 
Joao's Avatar
 
Joao is offline
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 38.40.807N 9.09.499' W
Posts: 761
Smile

Thank you for the links (and David thank you for the pictures). I am definitely convinced . No more proof is needed !
KMZ made a gradual evolution from a RF to a SLR, keeping the size of the lens mount. Fine.
Their Ukrainian colleagues at Arsenal took a different option: from a line of Kiev RF cameras, they have developed some SLRs with completely new features, including the lens mount (Kiev 10 Abtomat, Kiev 15, etc.). They just kept the name.
Regards
Joao

Last edited by Joao : 01-03-2017 at 06:07. Reason: mistake
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-10-2017   #27
David Hughes
Registered User
 
David Hughes's Avatar
 
David Hughes is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,063
Hi,

Just realised that the blindingly obvious wasn't mentioned.

Looking at the Industar-50 it comes in three versions - all M39 - and they are collapsible or solid for the RF's (mainly Zorkis) and short for the Zenit 1 and some 3(M)s. The Zenit mount changed during the 3 or 3M production.

The 4th version is the Industar-50-2 and the extra figure "2" is because it is the short version in M42...

And not all of them were made by KMZ.

Regards, David

Last edited by David Hughes : 01-10-2017 at 03:02. Reason: Clarity
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:52.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.