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Old 10-26-2015   #241
Doug
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Doesn't assigning dedicated pixels to PDAF duty reduce resolution of the sensor?
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Old 10-26-2015   #242
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No. Fuji was the first company to implement phase detect on sensor. The number of pixels used for phase detect is miniscule compared to the total number of megapixels of the sensor. Sony has patented a system which uses two layers, top layer for RGB and bottom layer for phase detect. This means the entire area of the sensor can be a phase detect point...

On-sensor PDAF also needs no calibration, unlike DSLR PDAF.
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Old 10-26-2015   #243
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Originally Posted by splitimageview View Post
Sure, in specific situations CDAF can be quite accurate and speedy (especially with smaller m43 sensors with lenses of not much mass.) I have serious doubts about the tele zoom for the SL, especially if it is as massive as the 24-90. There is a reason other high-end mirrorless have phase detect sensors, it's not just a marketing gimmick.

With regards to battery life, I've gotten a couple of thousand shots with mirrorless before, when shooting high speed sequences, but it's not about shot count, it's about how long the sensor is powered. It's very easy to get only 300 out of the same battery when shooting at a more leisurely pace. DSLRs don't power the sensor all the time, so you should be getting quite a bit more life out of your Nikon batt. I know mine gets far more than that. I haven't bothered to buy a spare cell for it, even. ...
My E-M1 does have the PDAF sencells and does focus the large and heavyweight FourThirds zooms very effectively, lens most certainly not designed for CDAF. They focus faster with the E-M1 than they did with the last pro-grade Olympus DSLR, the E-5. What is fascinating, however, is that the E-PL7 without the PDAF Magic does darn near as well with the same lenses.

The new pro lenses in the Olympus line, however, are designed for CDAF, just as these new lenses for the SL are. They focus even faster than the old pro-grade lenses do. I expect that the real performance of the SL and its new lenses will be indistinguishable from any other well-designed, well-implemented top-end DSLR in practical terms. Remember, it's not whether you have PDAF or CDAF or XYCT that matters: it's how well you make the system work.

Same for the battery and power management. I've never gotten less than 700 exposures out of a charge with the E-M1, in three years and over 30,000 exposures trying. I'm not, as I said before, much of an exposure machine gunner. The camera takes care of shutting down power consumption when not needed effectively and yet is always ready when I need it to be. Good design, well implemented ... Efficiency. I suspect the same will be true of the SL.

What lens whomever chooses to carry, that's up to them. That big heavy lump of a Canon lens that I sold? The guy who bought it is a friend of mine. He's been using it every day on the succession of Canons he's owned ever since; loves it. Who am I to judge?

What I really recommend is to not let your preconceptions and biases get in the way. Try to see through them and judge the cameras, when they're out in the field being used, rather than judging it based on incomplete information and preconceptions that aren't very reflective of reality.

I can tell already that the SL will do what I want, limited and simple though it may be, even if it fails utterly at other stuff that isn't of major importance to me. And that's what's important and motivates my dishing out the money for it, substantial as it might be. I'll know whether it was worth it a bit later... :-)

G
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Old 10-26-2015   #244
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Of course, if it works for you, that's all that matters.

My point was, it is doubtful there are enough multiples of you for this to be a financial success to Leica. I hope it is, but it's definitely not for me, even if it were 1/4 the price...and this isn't based on preconceptions, but it is based on biases...or more precisely, preferences; i.e., nix on the unnecessary heft.

The S2 dropped precipitously from it's initial MSRP (at resale), it will be interesting to see what happens with the SL.
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Old 10-26-2015   #245
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Originally Posted by splitimageview View Post
Of course, if it works for you, that's all that matters.

My point was, it is doubtful there are enough multiples of you for this to be a financial success to Leica. I hope it is, but it's definitely not for me, even if it were 1/4 the price...and this isn't based on preconceptions, but it is based on biases...or more precisely, preferences; i.e., nix on the unnecessary heft.

The S2 dropped precipitously from it's initial MSRP (at resale), it will be interesting to see what happens with the SL.
Based on what three dealers told me today, there is a reasonable demand for it already. Got my preorders in .. Whomever gets one for me first, gets the gold.

The body's heft is just right for R lenses, IMO. I'm not a zoom lens guy and won't buy that lens. :-)

G
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Old 10-26-2015   #246
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I hope Leica doesn't lose their shirt on this..
Looks like a nice cam though...
I just cant see that many people investing in it..
And in 6 to 12 mos...there will be copies right in there w/Leica..
At 1/2 the cost..
I just don't see this working for them..
But who knows..
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Old 10-26-2015   #247
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Originally Posted by Emile de Leon View Post
I hope Leica doesn't lose their shirt on this..
Looks like a nice cam though...
I just cant see that many people investing in it..
And in 6 to 12 mos...there will be copies right in there w/Leica..
At 1/2 the cost..
I just don't see this working for them..
But who knows..
If they don't populate the lens stable quickly it may well be a strange case of an orphan body (in Digital times, we seem to be used to having orphan lenses).

Aside from a small population of online gear heads, not too many photographers are into using lenses that are non-native.

Unless I missed something since the original anouncement,..There are 3 lenses on the roadmap for this camera. Two are zooms.
Not very satisfying as a consumer feel good pill or comprehensive as a profeesional platform.

Maybe there are some optics. Leica would be wise to "leak" out some specs before too long.
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Old 10-26-2015   #248
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There is always initial demand for Leica gear, especially gear that works with lenses already in the field, and there is plenty of that...

I see low mileage S2s are now in the $5k range, from authorized dealers. If I were looking for something bigger than big, that's what I'd be looking at...with one of their AF Contax lens adapters. I sold one of those systems a couple of years ago to a local pro, it's an excellent handling medium format system especially for that price range...
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Old 10-26-2015   #249
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It will take a while for the SL lens line to fill out. I understand the 50 Summilux is a year away, no other lenses even mentioned yet.

I wonder if the "best" answer to this lack now is the S lens lineup. It has taken a while for these lenses to come on the market, but now they're here, and they supposedly will work with a smart adapter "as native" on the SL.

There are 24, 30, 35, 45, 70, 100, 120, 185, and 30-90 zoom available that could be very useful on the SL, with exquisite quality. Yes, they're large and heavy, but so are the SL lenses! So there's no big shortage of AF lenses at this point, especially if we include some Contax 645 and Hasselblad ones too.

I probably won't be an SL buyer, though I already have three lenses "for it", the 35, 70, and 100 S lenses... And a bunch of P67 lenses that can also adapt to the S-SL adapter.
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Old 10-26-2015   #250
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It will take a while for the SL lens line to fill out. I understand the 50 Summilux is a year away, no other lenses even mentioned yet.

I wonder if the "best" answer to this lack now is the S lens lineup. It has taken a while for these lenses to come on the market, but now they're here, and they supposedly will work with a smart adapter "as native" on the SL.

There are 24, 30, 35, 45, 70, 100, 120, 185, and 30-90 zoom available that could be very useful on the SL, with exquisite quality. Yes, they're large and heavy, but so are the SL lenses! So there's no big shortage of AF lenses at this point, especially if we include some Contax 645 and Hasselblad ones too.

I probably won't be an SL buyer, though I already have three lenses "for it", the 35, 70, and 100 S lenses... And a bunch of P67 lenses that can also adapt to the S-SL adapter.

Interesting. Having no real need for it, I did not know that there was a Contax 645 adapter for the S.
The 2f.8/140mm from that system was fantastic! If I remember it had a little bit of a long minumum Focus Distance. Otherwise gorgeous for portraits. Interesting times for photographers.
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Old 10-26-2015   #251
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From what I see on other forums, S camera users are pretty pleased with the Contax 645 lenses. I don't have any of those but I've found the Pentax67 lenses are pretty good on the S, some really excellent. But of course manual focus (with the AF aid in the viewfinder helping) and manual stop-down aperture with an Auto-Manual switch on the lenses like the M42 Takumars. A bit inconvenient, but they fill in on otherwise absent focal lengths.
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Old 10-26-2015   #252
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Based on what three dealers told me today, there is a reasonable demand for it already. Got my preorders in .. Whomever gets one for me first, gets the gold.
G
You are one of those guys who orders from multiple dealers, then cancels all but one order.

Why am I not surprised?
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Old 10-27-2015   #253
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Another perspective on this camera, from Kirk Tuck
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Old 10-27-2015   #254
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I'll wait for the monochrome version .... thanks!
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Old 10-27-2015   #255
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You are one of those guys who orders from multiple dealers, then cancels all but one order.

Why am I not surprised?
I don't like to be insulted and accused of foul play.

Yes, I call my dealer friends, explain to them that I'm looking to get one as quickly as possible, place an order with them on the proviso that if another order comes in earlier I will cancel.

The dealers put in a stocking order. They don't know when or how many they'll get in. My position on their list is irrelevant, because they might or might not get what they order, and might or might not get any before or after another dealer.

So we're both playing the same game of roulette. They each don't know when they'll have stock or how much (their order is not derivative of my order), and I don't know specifically where on their queues I am or which can deliver first. They and I both agree to play the game, and all of them know I'm a good customer who will visit and buy again. If any are uncomfortable with doing this, because they are basing orders on the incoming requests, they tell me and I don't place a preorder unless they want me to.

It's a perfectly fair and equitable arrangement, committed to with full transparency on both sides of the transaction. So the next time you want to insult me, make sure you understand what you're talking about beforehand.

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Old 10-27-2015   #256
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Originally Posted by lynnb View Post
Another perspective on this camera, from Kirk Tuck
Kirk is right on the money. My comment on his blog:

Quote:
Absolutely right on the money, Kirk. I couldn't agree more.

I've been collecting and hoarding Leica R lenses while prices were low in anticipation of this camera. And although I can afford it, it's still a stretch that I've planned for, for some time to be sure. I am so looking forward to receiving it and going to work with it.

Thank you for the first and best, sanest articulation of my thoughts about the SL. I could not have said it any better or with your credibility.
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Old 10-27-2015   #257
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the best mirrorless focusing now is probably by panasonic with their DFD techonology (no PDAF!). maybe some of that has trickled into the leica SL
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Old 10-27-2015   #258
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Unfortunately Leica is very poor at informing dealers of allocations. Let me rephrase that: Leica does not inform dealers at all. Shipments will just appear without any advance notice.

This just encourages consumers to place orders with multiple dealers. Leica dealers have implored Leica USA for many years to create a system so customer orders can be properly allocated to eliminate this issue but their suggestions remain ignored...
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Old 10-27-2015   #259
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Unfortunately Leica is very poor at informing dealers of allocations. Let me rephrase that: Leica does not inform dealers at all. Shipments will just appear without any advance notice.

This just encourages consumers to place orders with multiple dealers. Leica dealers have implored Leica USA for many years to create a system so customer orders can be properly allocated to eliminate this issue but their suggestions remain ignored...
Correct. I maintain excellent relationships with my dealer friends and we play the purchase roulette game together. I've spent thousands of dollars with each of these dealers so they enjoy good business from me, and in return they do what they can to help me achieve my goals. My dealer friends and their sales personnel are good people and have been invaluable assistants to my photography.

If I could just place an order with a dealer and know that the dealer will receive it in an orderly and timely fashion, we wouldn't have to play these games. As it is, we do the best we can.

Meanwhile, I'm studying the instruction manual in detail. This is a fascinating camera with very subtle and useful design details. I'm really getting jazzed up thinking about what I can do with it; it's quite a piece of work. Obviously, I won't get the most out of the R lenses until the dedicated adapter is available next year, but this is not the kind of "use for 90 days and then recycle" equipment that others are putting out. Learning the camera and lenses properly will take most of the time between when I have it and when the R Adapter SL is available—and I have the time.

I suspect I'll be using this camera for quite a few years to come, just like my M-P. It's such a delight that there is still at least one camera manufacturer that designs and builds for the long haul.

G
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Old 10-27-2015   #260
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Kirk is right on the money. My comment on his blog:

G
I too follow Kirk's blog and enjoyed what he had to say about the forthcoming SL. These two snippets caught my attention:

"They obsess about camera features that real photographers will find unimportant while ignoring the one dominant attribute a true Leica should possess; absolute image quality. And that absolute image quality comes from the design and manufacturing precision of the lenses and the necessary tight tolerances of the camera and sensor integration with the lenses. That's it. No other magic beans. No vampire killing, secret silver bullets."

"A final note. Leica understands the shift in the market. I conjecture that they've given up the middle and bottom of the markets; written it off as deceased for serious camera makers. What other company is better positioned to go after the remaining high end photographers and photo enthusiast with unfettered budgets? The others have already screwed up their reputations by trying to embrace every step of the demographic ladder with some sort of product. They've damaged their brands in the eyes of the last, remaining consumers with money. They'll pay for that..."
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Old 10-27-2015   #261
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Sorry, this is a bit long...

I had a chance to spend a little time with the SL.

It is not as big as you think...it's bigger than an A7 and smaller then a S2. I found it to be comfortable to hold. Please note, I have really big hands. Focusing was very quick with the "kit" lens and the viewfinder was fantastic. It handled very nicely with a Summilux 35 and it was built like a tank.

However, I don't think specs (which are pretty good) or any of that is really what this camera is about.

Forgetting the brand and forgetting the price, having a full frame mirrorless camera that is optimized to use nearly all of Leica's legacy glass and newly developed glass developed just for this system is what makes this camera unique and relevant.

I think the real problem here is Leica's marketing. The whole "PRO" thing and really playing up the fact that it's mirrorless is sort of like putting a big "TURBO" or "RACING" sticker on your new Audi. Mirrorless is not a new technology and it’s not that exciting to hear “PRO”. Nikon and Canon do well with the pro market and they can support it.

I believe that this is a camera that would appeal to many artists, enthusiasts and yes, even some pros.

However, I think the photographer who will really be interested in the SL includes, but is not limited to...

Those who appreciate a full frame camera that can accept a collection of Leica glass.

Those who want something different than Canon or Nikon but with an equally durable and perhaps a more expensive feel.

Those who enjoy the Leica mystique but don't like rangefinders or manual focus.

Of course there are, and will be many others...

I understand that many (most) people don't "get" what Leica is all about. I can't blame them. On paper, Leica will generally loose a battle of “tech specs”. Not to say that the cameras aren’t great, I think they are. The fact is, the lenses are some of the best (cue Clarkson) “…In the world”. However, that being said, I think those who are Leica fans may be more sentimental / emotional with their camera purchases. They are looking for the experience. Whatever that may be. Using a rangefinder, seeing that “Leica glow”, whatever. And, truth be told, some may just want the "best". Sometimes, the best just = expensive.

I applaud Leica for taking some risks and for trying to do different things for their user base. I don’t blame them for trying to expand their reach with cameras like the T and X series. Ultimately, they don’t usually play well in the same sandbox as the other kids. They are just too pricey and don’t have the latest in technology.

In the end, I don’t think that this camera is intended to compete with Nikon, Canon, Sony or any other camera in any other market.

It is for those who are in the market for a…Leica.


Just my .02 which is worth .00
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Old 10-27-2015   #262
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Indeed. I just hope there are enough buyers, so they can fund other interesting products, like a Q2 with a 35mm.
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Old 10-27-2015   #263
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Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
They each don't know when they'll have stock or how much (their order is not derivative of my order), and I don't know specifically where on their queues I am or which can deliver first. They and I both agree to play the game, and all of them know I'm a good customer who will visit and buy again. If any are uncomfortable with doing this, because they are basing orders on the incoming requests, they tell me and I don't place a preorder unless they want me to.

It's a perfectly fair and equitable arrangement, committed to with full transparency on both sides of the transaction. So the next time you want to insult me, make sure you understand what you're talking about beforehand.

G
You have these great personal relationships but they won't tell you where in the queue you are? That seems strange.

Perhaps your tactics are what it takes to get one. I think as a dealer I would have more loyalty to a customer who was committed to buy from me and not making many orders.

I must give you credit for being up front about it, telling them you are ordering from others, honest though uncomfortable.

It'll be interesting to see if the plan works or you just fall aways down everyone's list

As to the "insult": it was an observation, and still accurate, with a jibe attached. I have never used such a tactic, but perhaps you must to get one early on. It sounds like the system does not help much.

You are right, when it comes to obtaining a newly introduced and scarce Leica, I don't know what I'm talking about
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Old 10-27-2015   #264
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Dealers can have their individual wait lists but Leica does not divulge where in the queue dealers are.

It's irritating as hell.

I've spent a lot of time with customers only to lose orders to other dealers because another dealer got a camera first. I'm not sure that it ever evened out, it certainly didn't as far as orders that I booked personally.
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Old 11-07-2015   #265
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fondled an SL this week for a good half an hour,

i expected to hate it for the ridiculously big (but fantastic) kitlens and the inet talk, with even more ridiculously big hood... however..

my verdict:

I LOVE IT, if I had the funds I'd buy one at full retail and RIGHT NOW.

this one could definitiely replace ALL my digital cameras.. well besides pro nikon, and i'd buy 3 additional batteries with it, too..

+ viewfinder (I almost forgot it's electronic while using it, super-hi-res and lagfree, IMPRESSIVE, big and bright -> never thought I'd say this about any EVF ever.
+ very responsive
+ SILENT shutter (reminds me the fine shutter of the E-1)
+ AF is instant and completely inaudible
+ IQ seems great (hadn't brought my own sd card... so i haven't checked on monitor yet)
+ MF with 75 lux and 90 apo and 50 summicron worked like a charm, the viewfinder is so good, that focus peaking is great to have, but not necessary.
+ build quality gets 100% rating, bult like a tank, it's perfect.
+ body is outright small, i expected it worse (the kit lens isn't)
+ top display is great
+ size is so perfect to use R, M and Nikon lenses with the right adapters.

- kit lens is huge (performs unbelievable though, AF is instant like nikon AF-S lenses on pro bodys)
- price (I'll wait six months or so t buy one used

imo leica hit a homerun, If sony brings a body at this size, and build, I'd be all over it, too. the SL is the future. great work leica.
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Old 11-07-2015   #266
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thanks for the info. Exactly how big is the 24-90?
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Old 12-06-2015   #267
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It's funny how much the initial reaction to this camera reminds me of the reaction to the X Vario when that first came out. I was one of the cynics, right until I finally got my hands on one at the shop. Since then I couldn't stop thinking about one.

That's the thing about being cynical -- it's usually from people who have neither seen one, held one, nor have an interest or ability to fund one. So has any vehement naysayers actually touched one of these for themselves and wish to change their point opinion?

At least we now know it's definitely not a camera for midgets from DPReview. I hope the joke is on them now as much as they tried to make a cruel joke of the camera then.
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Old 12-06-2015   #268
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A few people were questioning the size and wondering why Leica would make a camera so big. Hmm. You think Leica made them so big just because? Or out of sheer spite, perhaps?

One thing I have learned about the new Leica: there is method to their apparent madness. I have learned to trust them to know what they are doing.

For instance, read what Dr Karbe's explanation about why the X Vario lens had to be that slow. If I could have the 28-90mm Vario Summicron from my old Digilux on an X Vario body, I'd really love that, who wouldn't? But the D2 Vario Summicron goes from f/2 to f/2.3, the filter size if 62mm, and that's on a tiny 1/2.3" sensor. The X platform has APS-C sensors, 10 times bigger than 1/2.3" -- so you think an X Vario Summicron can be even smaller than the Digilux 2? And retail at the same price? Please.
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Old 12-06-2015   #269
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+ viewfinder (I almost forgot it's electronic while using it, super-hi-res and lagfree, IMPRESSIVE, big and bright -> never thought I'd say this about any EVF ever.
How many EVFs do you know? A99 by chance? So far the best I´ve seen.
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Old 12-06-2015   #270
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Great link to Kirk Tuck's opinion above. Sounds right.
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Old 12-06-2015   #271
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the best mirrorless focusing now is probably by panasonic with their DFD techonology (no PDAF!). maybe some of that has trickled into the leica SL
No maybe about it, Leica and Panasonic have intensified their technical cooperation lately. Result: The Q and the SL.
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