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Fuji Digital Medium Format Fasten your seat belts medium format fans, the status quo is in for a bumpy ride!

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Old 09-19-2016   #41
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Originally Posted by BLKRCAT View Post
What constitutes medium format these days? The sensor doens't even come close to 6x4.5. I whipped up this little diagram to illustrate.
What is medium format? Your own diagram points out we could not make up our minds with film.

I wish camera companies would not dangle these photographic carrots. I'm going to have to start buying lotto tickets again.
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Old 09-19-2016   #42
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Originally Posted by FrankS View Post
What is the need for a tilt/shift lens when that functionality can be handled by post processing software?
I sure hope this is sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by BLKRCAT View Post
I didnt want to play favourites, otherwise I'd have to include the fuji 6x8 people too!

I'm also a P67 user
More than just the Pentax uses the "Ideal format" 6x7 dimensions. There's the Bronica GS-1, Mamiya RB and RZ 67, Mamiya 7, Plaubel Makina, the 6x7 backs on the Century Graphic and Mamiya Press, and the Fuji 6x7 rangefinder as well.

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You win the internet. Everything is a crop of 8x10. Except 8x10 is just a crop of 11x14. Which is a crop of 12x20. Which is a crop of....
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Old 09-19-2016   #43
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Originally Posted by TXForester View Post
What is medium format? Your own diagram points out we could not make up our minds with film.

I wish camera companies would not dangle these photographic carrots. I'm going to have to start buying lotto tickets again.
MF film uses 120 film, with some sort of crop, so it is 6 x something.
The diagram could have shown it clearer if the 6 x 4.5 frame was rotated.
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Old 09-20-2016   #44
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I think this system will dominate medium format sales - essentially obsoleting the blad and Leica S systems.

Stephen
Hm, I am not fully convinced. But more for economic than technical reasons.
The camera looks good by data / tech sheet. No question.
But will it become an economic success?
I don't think so.
Because I well remember an interview with the Hasselblad CEO concerning the size of the global digital medium format market. He said that the whole global market is only about 5,000 sold units p.a.. And it is significantly declining, too. As the whole digital camera market.
That market size is extremely tiny. A niche in the niche in the niche market.

And now we have lots of (too much) competitors in the market: Hasselblad, Phase One, Leica, Pentax and now Fujifilm.
And we have increasing competition from FF / 35mm sensor cameras with 42-50 MP sensors, which cost much less.

Don't forget: The price of "less than 10,000$" is only for the camera with standard lens. To fully exploit / using this system you need more lenses. And then you will be in the 15,000 - 20,000 $ price range. You can buy a new car for that amount of money. Or significantly decrease your house debt.
Only a tiny fraction of photographers is so rich that they could afford that. And now 5 companies are fighting against each other in that market......extremely difficult for any of them to be profitable.

If you've looked at Fujifilm's financial data over the years you see that their X-system has not been very profitable.
Meanwhile Fujifilm is making more money again with their silver-halide products compared to their digital products.

Cheers, Jan

Last edited by HHPhoto : 09-20-2016 at 02:00. Reason: typo
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Old 09-20-2016   #45
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. And it is significantly declining, too. As the whole digital camera market.
That market size is extremely tiny. A niche in the niche in the niche market.

And now we have lots of (too much) competitors in the market: Hasselblad, Phase One, Leica, Pentax and now Fujifilm.
And we have increasing competition from FF / 35mm sensor cameras with 42-50 MP sensors, which cost much less.
It is obvious that the Fuji/Hasselblad cooperation has reached its end, which obsoletes and might eventually kill the H system. Indeed its death might happen much sooner than expected, Hasselblad themselves are already attacking it from both ends, teasing a possible digital V system revival in addition to the X1D, which does not sound as if they will make any effort to extend its life. With one of the merely two major players in the segment about to vanish, there is a niche open, which both Fuji and Hasselblad (must) scramble for - Fuji has a large MF division that it does not seem to be inclined to give up, and Hasselblad has already failed to diversify to smaller formats, for them it is all or nothing...

And what with FF slowly growing into the household format for amateurs upward of smartphone photography, the makers may have hopes that more professionals may soon feel the need to differentiate by operating cameras upward of FF.
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Old 09-20-2016   #46
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We are a truly horrible lot. Fuji has its crop sensor in the XT/XE series and we whine.
Why can't they make a FF sensor, we complain?
Then they bring out this bigger than FF sensor, and we whine.

...
I agree.

The GFX signal-to-noise ratio (and resulting analog dynamic range) will be superior to every 35 X 24 mm digital camera. The ability to produce rather large prints (even square prints) will be awesome (including square crops) due to the 5.3 micron pixel pitch.

I the size comparison charts are irrelevant because they conflate film and digital media or compare a format costing under $10K to one that costs at least 4 times more.
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Old 09-20-2016   #47
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I don't understand your kind of comment since these are just the FIRST six lenses of a new camera system. Many more will likely follow.
Stephen
Sorry Stephen, was written before my first coffee in the morning and probably a not appropriate reaction. So lets hope Fuji has success with their (APSC )MF cameras and don't forget the landscape photographers.

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Old 09-20-2016   #48
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Hm, I am not fully convinced. But more for economic than technical reasons.
The camera looks good by data / tech sheet. No question.
But will it become an economic success?
I don't think so.
Because I well remember an interview with the Hasselblad CEO concerning the size of the global digital medium format market. He said that the whole global market is only about 5,000 sold units p.a.. And it is significantly declining, too. As the whole digital camera market.
That market size is extremely tiny. A niche in the niche in the niche market.
He said this before anyone was even CLOSE to offering medium format digital for less than $10,000. In the 1980s how big do you think the market for 120 cameras was really? Hasselblads were pretty dang expensive and used by pretty much only the most dedicated or well heeled photographers. If Fuji can capture that market they'll be fine. They don't need a GFX in every home, but if they can get these things in the hands of high end wedding pros, that's a win by any margin. I think many studio people will stick with Phase or Hasselblad because of the rental market. To me the GFX looks like a field ready camera and I'm sure that's where we'll see it most. At launch they have every lens a wedding photographer would want to use, minus something in the 70-200 ~e range (which as a wedding shooter I could care less about b/c I almost never use zooms). Frankly I shoot everything with a 58 and the 35/1.4. The 63 and 45 would be fine, though I think they should come out with a 65/2 asap.
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Old 09-20-2016   #49
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Originally Posted by BLKRCAT View Post
What constitutes medium format these days? The sensor doens't even come close to 6x4.5. I whipped up this little diagram to illustrate.

I don't think sensors and film react the same way when it comes to enlarging though...
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Old 09-20-2016   #50
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He said this before anyone was even CLOSE to offering medium format digital for less than $10,000. In the 1980s how big do you think the market for 120 cameras was really? Hasselblads were pretty dang expensive and used by pretty much only the most dedicated or well heeled photographers. If Fuji can capture that market they'll be fine. They don't need a GFX in every home, but if they can get these things in the hands of high end wedding pros, that's a win by any margin. I think many studio people will stick with Phase or Hasselblad because of the rental market. To me the GFX looks like a field ready camera and I'm sure that's where we'll see it most. At launch they have every lens a wedding photographer would want to use, minus something in the 70-200 ~e range (which as a wedding shooter I could care less about b/c I almost never use zooms). Frankly I shoot everything with a 58 and the 35/1.4. The 63 and 45 would be fine, though I think they should come out with a 65/2 asap.
Agreed. I don't think this is a camera that needs to have a long zoom for the wedding market anyways for the type of shots this would be used for. I see a lot of wedding people grabbing one of these for their kits.
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Old 09-20-2016   #51
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The conflation occurred because the manufacturers and their advertising departments are marketing these cameras as "medium format" inviting the comparison to film for which they are being called out.
It's larger than 35mm though... and you'll be able to print larger from this sensor than you will be able to from a 645 negative.
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Old 09-20-2016   #52
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It's larger than 35mm though... and you'll be able to print larger from this sensor than you will be able to from a 645 negative.
Yeah it's pretty pointless to go on and on about what can be and cannot be called medium format. There is digital medium format, and film medium format, and for better or for worse there are different choices in each medium, with different realities. I'm fairly confident that up to a certain point the 44x33mp format will put out higher resolution images than those from a piece of 6x6 film, and certainly those made at ISO 400 and above. I'm not going to sit here and complain about a new, larger than 35mm system, just because I'm tied to a 120 film format. Guess what! I'm going to keep shooting 6x6 in my Rollei, and 6x7 in my Pentax. If I'm lucky, maybe someday I'll pick up a GFX and shoot 44x33. I'm going to call it medium format no matter what people in forums say it should be called.

If ANYTHING 44x33 is very appropriately called medium format because, aside from some extremely specialized options that come with some pretty huge logistical problems, there is no large format digital. By default then, the current 100mp backs are our digital large format, and 44x33, being between 35mm and 645 FF, is a 'medium' format. Deal with it.
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Old 09-20-2016   #53
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What is the need for a tilt/shift lens when that functionality can be handled by post processing software?
Exactly!!!

And, I agree that this is likely to be a dominant player in Medium Format.
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Old 09-20-2016   #54
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He said this before anyone was even CLOSE to offering medium format digital for less than $10,000.
No, that is not correct.

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Originally Posted by SaveKodak View Post
In the 1980s how big do you think the market for 120 cameras was really?
We don't need to think about, the data is there. In the 80ies and 90ies the medium format market was in the 60,000 - 100,000 units p.a. range.
So it was much much bigger than the current digital medium format market is.

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Old 09-20-2016   #55
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No, that is not correct.



We don't need to think about, the data is there. In the 80ies and 90ies the medium format market was in the 60,000 - 100,000 units p.a. range.
So it was much much bigger than the current digital medium format market is.

Cheers, Jan
Yes, that is correct.

You really think that there is no difference between the potential market for the Fuji GFX and a Hasselblad H6D-100 or Phase One XF? Cause I can think of more than a few big practical, economical, and logistical differences that will open up the marketplace to a much larger audience. You must understand that past performance is no guarantee of future performance. Just because the market is small for medium format NOW, doesn't mean it ALWAYS MUST BE SO. There was once a time when the market for 35mm FF digital was small. Nikon even used to say they would never make a FF camera. Then they made the D3.
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Old 09-20-2016   #56
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Exactly!!!
Did I miss here something, since when is tilt possible afterwards in post processing? I'm not taking about this boring miniature look, I'm talking about increasing the depth of field. And even in first case, selective focus via camera settings look always better than in post. No comparison.

And shift, yes, its possible to some extend in post, but I can show you many examples where its not really working.

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Old 09-20-2016   #57
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Did I miss here something, since when is tilt possible afterwards in post processing? I'm not taking about this boring miniature look, I'm talking about increasing the depth of field.
Well, focus stacking can do wonders - and has indeed replaced many former applications of tilt in studio photography. But it is hardly universally applicable, as it takes lots of time and a very static subject and camera.
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Old 09-20-2016   #58
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Did I miss here something, since when is tilt possible afterwards in post processing? I'm not taking about this boring miniature look, I'm talking about increasing the depth of field. And even in first case, selective focus via camera settings look always better than in post. No comparison.

And shift, yes, its possible to some extend in post, but I can show you many examples where its not really working.

Yogi
Chill man. The camera was announced yesterday. A T/S option will come either in the form of an adapter (a la Hasselblad) or a specific lens or set of lenses. Also you will easily be able to adapt the Canon TSE primes.
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Old 09-20-2016   #59
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Well, focus stacking can do wonders - and has indeed replaced many former applications of tilt in studio photography. But it is hardly universally applicable, as it takes lots of time and a very static subject and camera.
Sure, focus stacking can help sometimes, but as you said, you're running into problems in the moment where you have moving subjects in the photo, besides, I prefer to get my result in 1 shot and not 5 or 10 with all the post processing work afterwards. Sadly, (automatic) focus stacking is not implemented in the high pixel count cameras, as far as I know you can get it only for Canon with the ML-software. Maybe we get lucky and Fuji thought about this, simply set the shortest and longest distance via AF and the rest is done by the camera based on your aperture settings, can't be so difficult to program. And btw, give me also a free configurable ratio setting please. I'm used to compose my photos during the shooting and not afterwards via crop.

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Old 09-20-2016   #60
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Chill man. The camera was announced yesterday. A T/S option will come either in the form of an adapter (a la Hasselblad) or a specific lens or set of lenses. Also you will easily be able to adapt the Canon TSE primes.
I'm chilled :-) It's just that I don't understand why they don't use the opportunities in the first place, neither per hardware (lenses) nor per software. But as I said, I hope that Fuji is a little bit more innovative in the long term than Pentax for example. Alone in my narrow circle of LF photographing friends they could sell 4-5 cameras directly if they would offer 1 or 2 T/S Lenses for their 645D/Z.

Adapter is ok, but it normally multiplies your focal length (1.5 with Hasselblad for example), no useful way if you want to shoot wide angle.

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Old 09-20-2016   #61
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Yes, that is correct.
No, it is not. For years we've had digital medium format options in a similar price range. It's nothing completely new. Did that lead to an increasing market? No, the market declined in the last years.

With the new Fuji (and also the new mirrorless Hasselblad) you have to invest and build up a completely new system as a photographer. Not only the camera body, but also new lenses and accessoires are needed.
And that is extremely expensive. As already explained, then you end up with costs in the 15,000 - 20,000 $ range for your system.
Only very rich photographers can afford that.
And 99,99% of the enthusiast market simply can't afford it.
Or will not afford it, because the difference to their 42-50 MP 35mm camera is just not worth the huge price difference.
And as said above: With 5 competing companies, and pressure from "below" from Canon, Nikon and Sony, it is very unlikely that anyone in the digital medium format market can make attractive profits.
Look at the financial reports of the manufacturers: Lots of them are already making losses or only minimal profits.

Cheers, Jan
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Old 09-20-2016   #62
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Only very rich photographers can afford that.
Don't think you have to be rich per definition, many people buy a car for this amount, others household stuff or whatever and and some just cameras instead. Simply setting the right priority. But even if I had so much money to spend, somehow I can't imagine to feel comfortable when taking photos out on the street with gear of 20K around my neck. The Hassi X1D is really tempting for some projects I have in my mind, but it would be simply to dangerous to walk around with this kit these days with all the social tensions in the world. No problem with my old F3 or now M2, still waiting for the day where some pickpockets give me some money to buy food or film :-)

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Old 09-20-2016   #63
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No, it is not. For years we've had digital medium format options in a similar price range. It's nothing completely new. Did that lead to an increasing market? No, the market declined in the last years.

With the new Fuji (and also the new mirrorless Hasselblad) you have to invest and build up a completely new system as a photographer. Not only the camera body, but also new lenses and accessoires are needed.
And that is extremely expensive. As already explained, then you end up with costs in the 15,000 - 20,000 $ range for your system.
Only very rich photographers can afford that.
And 99,99% of the enthusiast market simply can't afford it.
Or will not afford it, because the difference to their 42-50 MP 35mm camera is just not worth the huge price difference.
And as said above: With 5 competing companies, and pressure from "below" from Canon, Nikon and Sony, it is very unlikely that anyone in the digital medium format market can make attractive profits.
Look at the financial reports of the manufacturers: Lots of them are already making losses or only minimal profits.

Cheers, Jan
I don't know Jan

I think the numbers will be there if Fuji wants them and.

If Leica can make money it with the digital M system and it's seemingly similar cost of entry to the GFX50s,... Fuji could make money with this GFX system.
It's not just about pros anymore.
There are many more enthusiasts that will be attracted to this system as compared to a large and clunky Hassy or Phase marketed to pros.
Once sample images begin to surface, many enthusiasts will not be able to resist.
There are many people who can afford this camera and will want to do so.
Time will tell.
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Old 09-20-2016   #64
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No, it is not. For years we've had digital medium format options in a similar price range. It's nothing completely new. Did that lead to an increasing market? No, the market declined in the last years.

With the new Fuji (and also the new mirrorless Hasselblad) you have to invest and build up a completely new system as a photographer. Not only the camera body, but also new lenses and accessoires are needed.
And that is extremely expensive. As already explained, then you end up with costs in the 15,000 - 20,000 $ range for your system.
Only very rich photographers can afford that.
And 99,99% of the enthusiast market simply can't afford it.
Or will not afford it, because the difference to their 42-50 MP 35mm camera is just not worth the huge price difference.
And as said above: With 5 competing companies, and pressure from "below" from Canon, Nikon and Sony, it is very unlikely that anyone in the digital medium format market can make attractive profits.
Look at the financial reports of the manufacturers: Lots of them are already making losses or only minimal profits.

Cheers, Jan
There have been options in the $8000 price range that are useable in the same situations these systems will be? That is a straight up lie. Systems in that price range have been relegated to studio duty because anything above ISO 200 looks terrible for most purposes. And no, you won't have to invest $15,000 into a kit to get a system. You don't use MF like you would 35mm. You can get 1 or 2 lenses and be set. Or in the case of the Fuji you'll be able to adapt most of the old MF lenses anyways.

And let's be real, people manage to justify Leica SLs. This camera is much less expensive than that. The GFX will do just fine in sales.
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Old 09-20-2016   #65
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Don't think you have to be rich per definition, many people buy a car for this amount, others household stuff or whatever and and some just cameras instead. Simply setting the right priority. But even if I had so much money to spend, somehow I can't imagine to feel comfortable when taking photos out on the street with gear of 20K around my neck. The Hassi X1D is really tempting for some projects I have in my mind, but it would be simply to dangerous to walk around with this kit these days with all the social tensions in the world. No problem with my old F3 or now M2, still waiting for the day where some pickpockets give me some money to buy food or film :-)

Yogi
Yogi,

The money has to come from somewhere is true. I don't own a car because I live in NYC, but it seems every 4 years I buy a brand new digital Leica. Four years ago it was the Monochrom, and this year a SL. I still love and own my Monochrom BTW. Kinda like buying a new car to me.

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Old 09-20-2016   #66
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No, it is not. For years we've had digital medium format options in a similar price range. It's nothing completely new. Did that lead to an increasing market? No, the market declined in the last years.

With the new Fuji (and also the new mirrorless Hasselblad) you have to invest and build up a completely new system as a photographer. Not only the camera body, but also new lenses and accessoires are needed.
And that is extremely expensive. As already explained, then you end up with costs in the 15,000 - 20,000 $ range for your system.
Only very rich photographers can afford that.
And 99,99% of the enthusiast market simply can't afford it.
Or will not afford it, because the difference to their 42-50 MP 35mm camera is just not worth the huge price difference.
And as said above: With 5 competing companies, and pressure from "below" from Canon, Nikon and Sony, it is very unlikely that anyone in the digital medium format market can make attractive profits.
Look at the financial reports of the manufacturers: Lots of them are already making losses or only minimal profits.

Cheers, Jan
The only company up to this year that offered a fully field capable MFD option has been Pentax. Maybe you've never shot MFD but there were even severe limitations on taking the H5D-50c into the field and shooting without being near a computer. Fuji appears to be taking everything that is great about the 645z, and combining it with many of the features of a fully customizable DSLR system, apparently based on the XT2. No-one, including Hasselblad with the X1D, have done this. Even the Pentax, which I really like, has more limitations than this Fuji appears to have.
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Old 09-20-2016   #67
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Yogi,
I don't own a car because I live in NYC,
Cal
Same here, public transport is so cheap and fast, no need for a car, spend all my money in cameras, travel and vinyl. But still afraid to buy a camera >2 or 3k because of a.m. reasons. I envy all who are able to do so, anyway, probably a topic for a new thread.

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Old 09-20-2016   #68
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The only company up to this year that offered a fully field capable MFD option has been Pentax. Maybe you've never shot MFD but there were even severe limitations on taking the H5D-50c into the field and shooting without being near a computer. Fuji appears to be taking everything that is great about the 645z, and combining it with many of the features of a fully customizable DSLR system, apparently based on the XT2. No-one, including Hasselblad with the X1D, have done this. Even the Pentax, which I really like, has more limitations than this Fuji appears to have.
You're not going to change his mind, his favorite topic is the collapsing of the digital camera market.
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Old 09-20-2016   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaveKodak View Post
The only company up to this year that offered a fully field capable MFD option has been Pentax. Maybe you've never shot MFD but there were even severe limitations on taking the H5D-50c into the field and shooting without being near a computer. Fuji appears to be taking everything that is great about the 645z, and combining it with many of the features of a fully customizable DSLR system, apparently based on the XT2. No-one, including Hasselblad with the X1D, have done this. Even the Pentax, which I really like, has more limitations than this Fuji appears to have.
I've seen enough outdoor stuff with Phase one or Leica S. Don't understand what kind of outdoor capability is missing here.
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Old 09-20-2016   #70
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meh, I'll stick with PhaseOne. Not that I could buy one but it's danish
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Old 09-20-2016   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom.w.bn View Post
I've seen enough outdoor stuff with Phase one or Leica S. Don't understand what kind of outdoor capability is missing here.
He was speaking in the price range of sub-$10k.
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Old 09-20-2016   #72
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He was speaking in the price range of sub-$10k.
He mentioned the H5D. Not really sub 10K.
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Old 09-20-2016   #73
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Originally Posted by mod2001 View Post
Same here, public transport is so cheap and fast, no need for a car, spend all my money in cameras, travel and vinyl. But still afraid to buy a camera >2 or 3k because of a.m. reasons. I envy all who are able to do so, anyway, probably a topic for a new thread.

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In the large cities with developed public transportation, at most a small motorbike makes sense. It is madness to drive in the center and a headache to park.

I recall seeing a profile of someone around BCN but lost track of it, I think it was yours and the best was seeing my university in the portfolio of photographs.

I Live in a coastal town further south and aside of getting to the train... No need for a car in BCN. Here, it is quite useful however. Cars are cool and very nice to run fantasies but practically a bunch of expenses, plus I don't quite like driving as other cars are quite aggressive.

Baack to the topic. It is Fuji day. Just received a pack of -sadly now historical- Fuji 160NS 220 which will be for the GW690 in a long trip.

The GFX is interesting. Called my attention that pixel pitch that claims to be bigger than an equivalent in FF, might even have decent high sensitivity.
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Old 09-20-2016   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom.w.bn View Post
He mentioned the H5D. Not really sub 10K.
It's the next closest new MF camera in price and saying that for the extra money you still don't get anything that's easier.
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Old 09-20-2016   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom.w.bn View Post
I've seen enough outdoor stuff with Phase one or Leica S. Don't understand what kind of outdoor capability is missing here.
It may be something you have to use a lot to understand but even if you are seeing commercial stuff that used the 50c lots of it was tethered on location which involved someone dragging a whole bunch of equipment and set up out. Were you just to go out with an H5D-50c you'd quickly realize that the screen sucks so say goodbye to checking focus (pretty important with 50mp), and the single point AF system is severely limiting. Not only that but the max shutter speed of the H5D is 1/800th of a second so natural light portraits with lenses like the 100/2.2 are a real challenge. Phase and Hassy cams (until the X1D which I haven't tried) just don't work like a big Nikon or Canon. They're really clunky to use. The exception is the Pentax which brought much of the innovation from the DSLRs. From what we've seen so far, the GFX looks like it has all the smart features of the X series, in a lightweight mirrorless body. You're going to be able to check focus, use multi point AF, it probably has 2 card slots and good battery life, etc etc. This kind of portability and functionality has not existed yet. You 'can' take an H5D out in the field. What I'm saying is that it sucks to do so. You would never want to attempt to shoot a wedding or event with one.
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Old 09-20-2016   #76
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In a way we got to congratulate Fuji Photo.

Yes it does not seem super innovative so far, but they are surely playing a game (so far at least), that makes Canon and Nikon look like fuddy-duddies in bringing in new and exciting digital photo products to market .
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Old 09-20-2016   #77
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The 1:1 option and form factor is the game changer here. I'm almost certainly in on this camera, with the 23 and 45 to start. Time to start figuring out what needs to go on the block.

It's like a big Ricoh GRD!!!
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Old 09-20-2016   #78
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Worth pointing out at this point that the phase one IQ1 which is the cut price 'no frills' 100mp slightly larger medium format sensor was just announced at a price of $32,990us just for the back.

This is why fujifilm went for the .70x crop sensor at 50mp.
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Old 09-20-2016   #79
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no leaf shutter, waaaa...
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Old 09-21-2016   #80
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Quote:
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no leaf shutter, waaaa...
I can think of exactly 1 scenario where Leaf shutters are very important to have. That is outdoors, trying to beat the sun, wide open. Feel free to outline another situation for me where a 2 stop improvement in shutter speed would be important enough to you to make you spend $25k on a Hasselblad.

And this is assuming that Fuji never makes CS lenses in the future.
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