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CSC : Digital Compact System Cameras - This new category of digital Compact System Cameras with interchangeable lenses was mislabeled for a time as "Mirrorless Cameras" by those forgetting about "Mirrorless" Rangefinder cameras.  Such confusion is easily understandable, since interchangeable rangefinder cameras were only recently introduced in 1932.  hmm.    CSC or Compact System Camera is probably the best category description to date, although I am fond of the old RFF desigation of  CEVIL  indicating Compact Electronic Viewfidner Interchangeable Lens.   This forum is here at RFF because via adapters these cameras offer an inexpensive way to use rangefinder lenses on digital cameras -- in addition of just about every 35mm SLR lens you can think of.  All  offer the photo enthusiast an incredible array of adopted lenses which was not possible before these new digital formats.   This group continues to grow in popularity and new camera models! 

View Poll Results: Will you buy Nikon's upcoming EVIL camera?
Never! 128 43.10%
There's a small possibility I might. 114 38.38%
Probably. 38 12.79%
Absolutely without a doubt! 17 5.72%
Voters: 297. You may not vote on this poll

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Will you buy Nikon's upcoming EVIL camera?
Old 07-12-2010   #1
antiquark
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Will you buy Nikon's upcoming EVIL camera?

Mostly rumors at this point:
http://nikonrumors.com/2010/07/12/ni...era-again.aspx

A few "facts" about the camera:

- Will probably be released this year.
- The image circle will be 17mm, which is smaller than u4/3.
- Will have removable lenses.
- Not sure if there will be an electronic viewfinder.
- Might have a 50/1.4 equivalent lens to go with it.
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Old 07-12-2010   #2
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That small image circle sounds nasty, I won't ever be buying one (although this is probably more to do with having no money than anything else )
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Old 07-12-2010   #3
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That small image circle sounds nasty, I won't ever be buying one (although this is probably more to do with having no money than anything else )
I'm worried that the cost will be wayyyy out of proportion to it's capabilities. Like, in the $1000 range, for a camera that will basically be a glorified point-and-shoot. (Like the Olympus EP1 )
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Old 07-12-2010   #4
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Not unless it is FF (D700 or better sensor) and not much bigger than an FM2n. Sort of a modernized rangefinder. I guess the answer is no for now.

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Old 07-12-2010   #5
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For a moment I thought they were about to make a new film camera... A very small one...

It was good while it lasted...

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Old 07-12-2010   #6
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Hardly interesting, based on what clearly is scuttlebutt. Time for me to buy another brick of Portra.
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Old 07-12-2010   #7
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With a 17mm image circle, that EVIL camera had better be really, and I mean really really, compact. If not, it wouldn't stand much of a chance against the Sony-NEX, which is quite small for what it does already.

The other thing that Nikon needs to do something about, is the auto-focus performance. So far, the Coolpixes that I've used and the Live-view-AF on the Nikon DSLRs are not best in class.. to say the least. This rumored camera has to be much much better than that.

If both of the above, compactness and focus speed, are there, then maybe I'll be interested..
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Old 07-12-2010   #8
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Sony probably has better (best?) package, especially after more prosumer oriented NEX models has arrived. sensor size and adapter friendliness does it for me. too early to vote though, since all we have are rumors.

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Old 07-13-2010   #9
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Most probably not. 17 mm image circle allows you to cover cca 13 x 10 mm chip (if it would be around 4:3) - that gives you lens conversion factor relative to 35 mm film about 2.8 (!). This in return increases the DOF for the same focal length by about 3 stops.

This may be fine as improved P&S but will limit any selective focus work unless Nikon comes up with lenses faster than Noctilux ($$$). On top of that Nikon P&S cameras never persuaded me to buy one or to recommend it to somebody (based on reviews).

I am in the camp waiting for FX based RF a'la M9 for a more reasonable price (or at least reasonably sized FX DSLR). But I am not too optimistic that any camera producer would dare to approach the design/layout of a classical rangefinder - too practical and too little fancy I fear.

I remain with film for the time being - and I actually enjoy it
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Old 07-13-2010   #10
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17mm image circle is a disappointment for me

nope
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Old 07-13-2010   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matus View Post
On top of that Nikon P&S cameras never persuaded me to buy one or to recommend it to somebody (based on reviews).
Well, for example the Nikon 900 series was pretty brilliant line of digital compacts back in the day, exactly because they got rid of a lot of classical ideas what a camera should look like, instead emphasizing functionality and ergonomics.

Same here. We can already witness the rangefinder crowd howling because their Summicrons are now teles, but I guess that anyone who designs a camera with a sensor such as this does not have the adapter crowd as their target user base - which is after all a pretty small group of people, however vocal, and not very interesting commercially because they tend to buy less lenses. I guess the success of this will depend on two things: whether they can present a lens lineup that makes sense, and whether they can depart ergonomically from cameras that are either SLR mockups or optimized for chimping. If they want to position this as a video camera replacement, I guess they've at least given the ergonomics some thought.

But since there is next to no data available and all we have is some rumours, I guess this whole discussion won't lead very far.

Quote:
But I am not too optimistic that any camera producer would dare to approach the design/layout of a classical rangefinder - too practical and too little fancy I fear.
From a camera manufacturer's point of view, it's rather the opposite: digital rangefinders are fancy cameras that cater to a boutique crowd, while people who want practical things like zooms and autofocus prefer DSLRs and EVILs.

Quote:
I remain with film for the time being - and I actually enjoy it
In 2010 that makes you pretty fancy, I guess, and also puts you firmly out of the market for any digital compact.
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Old 07-13-2010   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarski View Post
Sony probably has better (best?) package, especially after more prosumer oriented NEX models has arrived. sensor size and adapter friendliness does it for me. too early to vote though, since all we have are rumors.
But about buying it, some people voted "Absolutely without a doubt!"

I thought such blind faith was exclusively Leica faith...

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Old 07-13-2010   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rxmd View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matus
I remain with film for the time being - and I actually enjoy it
In 2010 that makes you pretty fancy, I guess, and also puts you firmly out of the market for any digital compact.
Fancy or not - I am not in the market for a compact digital camera (I mean here the 1/1.8" and smaller sensors).

I prefer to shoot film for my personal work. And for the occasional sessions renting the equipment can be done. I try to avid replacing my old DSLR (Minolta 7D) which I use mostly to "make pictures of something" rather than "photography" (if that can be understood) - apart from occasional "long lens" photography. Actually the only reason for me to buy a DSLR would be to have a chance to make some money with it - it would have to pay for itself.

Should a rangefinder/compact camera with large sensor appear that appeals to it could replace 35mm rangefinder I use now. I am hoping for the Foveon technology to be developed further (FX with true 12 Mpix) and get implemented in a decent body (e.g. Leica M10 ). But I am not in a hurry.

Digital rangefinder designed for "boutique crowd" will most probably not have the layout most of the RFF members would hope for - kook at the Sony NEX3 & 5 ...
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Old 07-13-2010   #14
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I don't need two small compact setups, so it would be a replacement. And with that in mind it doesn't sound appealing to me, or any better in order for me to give up the E-P2. While I won't vote never, I would vote Most likely not. I'm very happy with the E-P2 for the time being as a companion to my DSLRs.
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Old 07-13-2010   #15
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I heard it might even have an M compatible mount.
That would put the shark amongst the swimming herd of unholy cows.
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Old 07-13-2010   #16
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In answer to the original question, no I will not be buying it.
I've got three Nikon rangefinders, six Nikon SLR bodies and numerous lenses in both systems from 17 to 300 mm that take care of all my photographic needs, and a ton of very nice slide film that I love to shoot.
So, if it ain't broke...........
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Old 07-13-2010   #17
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I have a canon DSLR and a GF1, and there is definitely a difference in the quality of pics from them. If the nikon sensor is even smaller than that of GF1..no way. And, I enjoy shooting with my newly acquired film RF..yashica GSN .
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Old 07-14-2010   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igi View Post
17mm image circle is a disappointment for me

nope
+1 on that one. Not worth the trouble. I'll happily hold out for that FF EVIL camera that takes LTM lenses.
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Old 07-14-2010   #19
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No sense in a camera with interchangeable lenses and a small sensor. I already have a Canon S90 that i don't use because it can only make 'small sensor' pictures. I'm far more interested in the Samsung NX10 (or what comes next) and the Sony NEX, although Sony has a way to go before they understand interface design.
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Old 07-15-2010   #20
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No sale. EVILS - I've concluded, are for suckers regardless of manufacturer. - And I almost bought one. DSLRs are mature. They are as good as they're gonna get with around 10 years of development behind them and the most tech-generations. They also represent - due to intense competition , the best cost/performance ratio and competition has driven down the margins just like PCs. EVILS were invented for the manufacturer to remedy the issue of shrinking margins for camera manufacturers. They were not invented for the photographer. Let's take off the viewfinder, that can be an "accessory" and another revenue stream! We can cut the manufacturing cost of the pricey mirrors, and charge the same - or more, for the body! Hey - and a new lens mount = more $$$! - another revenue stream! And we can cut the cost of the sensor by making them smaller. Of course, we can add all kinds of (cough... useless) "features" that are lines of code in the firmware that cost nothing to manufacture... Additional revenue streams, higher margins on the camera body... Any benefits? None that I can see... They're probably as good as compact DSLRs from 2 generations ago. They're a bit smaller than compact DSLRS. Big deal. They are sexy lookin' though.
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Old 07-15-2010   #21
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No, unless the sensor is larger than m-4/3. I disagree with Nick on this one. I have really been enjoying a slew of odd glass on an OLy E-P2 -- and you know what? The image quality doesn't touch the M8 (at low ISOs) or the D3 (at high ISOs), but it is fun to use. And, while I think I answered someone's poll that I wasn't interested in movie-mode -- Y It's a hoot. I've got so many lenses that will work on this thing (Konica AR, Nikon-F, Nikon-S, Contax, Leica-R, Leica-M, C/V LTM and M), it is as close to a universal platform as I could wish for. . . EXCEPT miss that full frame thing. SO. If Nikon wants my money for a new concept camera, they'd have to split the difference between the EP-2 and the D3 on image quality and give me something that will make my wides wide. I'd go weak in the knees for something the size of a Nikon S2 with the D3's chip. Aooooah.



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Old 07-15-2010   #22
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No sale unless they have some miracle of small sensor design up their sleeves - literally all available evidence points to that size sensor not being able to measure up to what many of us want: low noise. That is in addition to the obvious: small camera, viewfinder, good controls, removable lenses.

So the unicorn of camera design remains a myth.
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Old 07-15-2010   #23
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If you compare the m4/3 against a DSLR and start taking off points for its disadvantages, it will obviously come up short. No question! But I don't believe that is the market the manufactures are targeting, it's not mean to replace a DSLR.

But if you are looking for something better than a P&S for times you want higher IQ, but can't, or are not willing, to lug a DSLR around every day. If you compare its advantages against a P&S, it really shines. Better IQ, higher usable ISO, decent image size, manual capabilities, ability to use HQ fast interchangeable lenses, removable EVF to keep it compact yet have the ability when needed, ext flash capable, long battery life, compact package, etc.

We as photographers have been asking for years for compact cameras that we can carry every day, and still get decent results from. The m4/3 cameras seem to actually get close, and are head and shoulders better than 98% of all P&S alternatives out there.

To me, the m4/3 is a P&S on steroids. Not a replacement for the DSLR, but his little brother he sends when he can't be there himself. Not equivalent to a DSLR, but better than the best offerings from the P&S crowd.

I'll allow the m4/3 to ride along with me daily for everyday stuff, ditch the P&S altogether, and call on its big brother when he is really needed.

With that said, this offering from Sony seems like a step backwards from that goal IMO.
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Old 07-15-2010   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CK Dexter Haven View Post
No sense in a camera with interchangeable lenses and a small sensor. I already have a Canon S90 that i don't use because it can only make 'small sensor' pictures. I'm far more interested in the Samsung NX10 (or what comes next) and the Sony NEX, although Sony has a way to go before they understand interface design.
Sony knows quite a bit about interface design. The A700/850/900 are about as good as it gets in this regard. Sony purposefully made the NEX interface more cell phone like in order to make it extremely easy to pick up and use. In fact, it was designed by Sony Ericsson. Although improvements could certainly be made, every advanced owner that I've talked to says the NEX interface is still quite usable.
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Old 07-15-2010   #25
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How do you know about the sensor size? I haven't found a statement about the size in my reading. Can you point me to the source? Thanks.
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Old 07-15-2010   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKR View Post
How do you know about the sensor size? I haven't found a statement about the size in my reading. Can you point me to the source? Thanks.
Try this link:
http://www.google.com/cse?cx=partner...17mm&sa=Search
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Old 07-15-2010   #27
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Quote:
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How do you know about the sensor size? I haven't found a statement about the size in my reading. Can you point me to the source? Thanks.
I don't think there is an official statement on it yet, it is just the rumour mill churning away.

EDIT: Although that link looks mighty interesting
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Old 07-15-2010   #28
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When the first post in the thread listed "facts", I musunderstood. They were "Rumored Facts". I think I'm getting the hang of this. I'm new here.

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Old 07-16-2010   #29
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How should I know whether I'd like Nikon's (eventually) upcoming camera enough to make a buying decision, when there's absolutely no valid data available? That's why I didn't vote.

It really all depends on which market Nikon will be targeting for its new product:
  1. Do they just aim for a more competent competitor to canon's S90 - with changeable lenses. This design might be interesting for those that are reasonably happy thith fingernail-sized sensors, but want more flexibility. This camera would not be an option for me.
  2. Are they planning to give the user an APS-C size sensor with the capability of less noise at higher ISO values plus somewhat better OOF area isolation together with exchangeable lenses and a more photographer-friendly user interface than Sony's offering? Then this camera might be an option for me as I'm looking for the same IQ my Nikon D300 provides, but in a more compact package.
  3. Would they plan on offering an FX sensor plus a sub-compact lens lineup that delivers the same IQ and OOF feature isolation of a full-format DSLR, and a UI that also caters for ambitious photographers, then I might even sell my analogue Hexar and its lenses to finance such a camera.
It all comes down to which market Nikon will be aiming at ...
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Old 07-16-2010   #30
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If Nikon planed to take advantage of the existing FX and DX lenses with a non mirror box camera, the depth of focus distance (between the sensor and rear element) would need a sensor that would give th eproper coverage. Other wise, a new crop of lenses will be commimg with the new camera.
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Old 07-18-2010   #31
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The image circle will be 17mm, which is smaller than u4/3.

Although I'm very happy with the results from my EPL1, m4/3 is small enough for me. Even though I'm a Nikon DSLR user, and there's likely to be some cross compatibility (knowing Nikon), an even smaller sensor would have to really wow me - especially to take the hit financially.
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Old 07-18-2010   #32
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Actually I have realized that I could imagine a camera with such a semi-small chip. If Nikon would put on a f/2.8 zoom lens of some 25 - 75 mm equivalent lens (non exchangeable) and make all the package small, compact and nice to use - it would work nicely as high-end P&S. Just a companion to MF gear on vacation.

I would of course expect all bells & whistles, distortion corrected clean images of some 8 - 10 Mpix (not more!) where little to no work needs to be done for some nice vacation A4 prints.

I have come to this as I have recently checked the size of the m4/3 cameras and while the bodies are of acceptable size, the zoom lenses are NOT. Maybe it is just time for Voigtlaender to introduce manual zoom lenses for m4/3
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Old 07-18-2010   #33
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unless it supports the S-mount lens with and adapter and has at least a APS sensor size... no way!
Sry Nippon Kogaku... you could do much better than that!
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Old 07-18-2010   #34
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For me, P&S film cameras suffice but at some point I’ll buy into the digital camera thing.
The Sony nex5 has my attention, it meets my requirements; relatively inexpensive, compact, light weight with a killer 3:2 apsC sensor.
The only other configuration that would divert my attention would be a fixed lens, short af zoom lens mounted on a small compact body with either an apsC or multi-aspect m43 sensor.
If Nikon or for that fact, any other manufacture presents such a device, I’d be interested
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Old 07-18-2010   #35
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17mm... really!

C'mon Nikon, punch in a full-frame sensor in there, then we can talk.
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Old 07-18-2010   #36
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17mm... really!

C'mon Nikon, punch in a full-frame sensor in there, then we can talk.

I've read two separate announcements about this new camera. I got the idea, maybe incorrectly, that it would use the current inventory of Nikkors. Nothing has been said about the size of the camera other than with a missing mirror box, it's likely to be thinner. So, it could be a DX sensor. It's not likely to be FX, though that would be great. p.
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Old 07-18-2010   #37
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It looks like an evil version of the GF1
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Nobody Knows, Patents Suggest Smaller Sensor
Old 07-18-2010   #38
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Nobody Knows, Patents Suggest Smaller Sensor

Quote:
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I've read two separate announcements about this new camera. I got the idea, maybe incorrectly, that it would use the current inventory of Nikkors. Nothing has been said about the size of the camera other than with a missing mirror box, it's likely to be thinner. So, it could be a DX sensor. It's not likely to be FX, though that would be great. p.
I haven't been following this very closely, but IIRC there haven't been any official announcements from Nikon yet that even hinted at EVIL sensor size. We're still fairly deep in rumorland here.

Nikon has filed patents on a mirrorless camera body (or certain aspects of a mirrorless camera body?) and a suite of lenses. The lenses are very compact and only cover a 17mm-diagonal sensor, which is the reason for the assumption the EVIL camera will have a smaller sensor. Have any patents directly specified sensor dimensions?

We will know for sure when an official announcement is made. Until then, we're guessing and projecting based on filed patents, leaks and rumors.

I find m4/3 compact enough to have basically replaced my digital p&s cameras, and capable enough to replace 90% of my DSLR use. I don't think a smaller EVIL system from anyone would motivate me to buy unless the image quality equals or exceeds m4/3, could still use legacy glass, and has an EVF. I don't think Nikon can make it smaller overall without a smaller sensor, and it would be quite a trick to equal/exceed m4/3 quality with a smaller sensor. But I'm prepared to be thrilled.

I very much like the fact that mirrorless systems are taking root and flowering.....
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Old 07-19-2010   #39
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I think it won't even have a DX sensor, but a smaller one... And if it has a DX one, its price wouldn't be too conservative... But the small size would be attractive if DX lenses can be used...

Cheers,

Juan
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Old 07-19-2010   #40
PKR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan Valdenebro View Post
I think it won't even have a DX sensor, but a smaller one... And if it has a DX one, its price wouldn't be too conservative... But the small size would be attractive if DX lenses can be used...

Cheers,

Juan
Hi Juan;

I think there is a second camera coming in addition to the EVIL. it may have a bigger sensor, though it may not be as large as a DX. Nikon wants to compete with the G11. i think they have something coming. p.
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