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If corroded sensor never changed?
Old 01-06-2018   #1
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If corroded sensor never changed?

What will happen if corroded sensor never changed?

My purchased new in 2016 M-E showed first tiny something in early 2017.
Then, in the spring it grow to the "worm" like line. And by 2017 September (year after purchase) "worm" populated to few and similar size, shape.
I only see it on the sky images and f8 or less. Real life pictures at f8 and more doesn't seems to be affected. Sometimes and not often I have to clone in LR one or two "worms" (curved lines).

How bad corrosion could grow? Could it be something dangerous, like falling glass?
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Old 01-06-2018   #2
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Do I understand correctly It's a filter layer that corrodes not the cover glass?

I imaging it will just keep getting worse. These things usually do.
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Old 01-06-2018   #3
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Keep away from humidity and dry clean only(touchless).

Write a photoshop action to drag clone tool down the two lines.

Take pictures up side down as required

Sooner or later you will buy a new sensor. That is why I tell people not to buy used Leicas.
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Old 01-06-2018   #4
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I think it would eventually lead to this... This is what happened to my M9 eventually although frankly I never looked closely at my sensor but it did have some mysterious spots...
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Old 01-06-2018   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f16sunshine View Post
Do I understand correctly It's a filter layer that corrodes not the cover glass?

I imaging it will just keep getting worse. These things usually do.
I have no idea where it is exactly, special magnifier I have shows it on the surface.
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Old 01-06-2018   #6
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Originally Posted by 35photo View Post
I think it would eventually lead to this... This is what happened to my M9 eventually although frankly I never looked closely at my sensor but it did have some mysterious spots...
Thank you! Now I know it eventually will become unusable.
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Old 01-06-2018   #7
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Thank you! Now I know it eventually will become unusable.
Sure not a problem! Eventually the photos just faded to black... the one I posted the second image from when it first started happening...
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Old 01-07-2018   #8
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I don't think it's possible to make meaningful predictions.

It's a good sign the visible corrosion sites are growing slowly. If there's additional corrosion that's too small to see at f 8, then it doesn't matter because you can't see it.

So, I will speculate it could be several years before some of those small sites become significantly larger.

I agree with Ronald M's advice regarding humidity.

Since the culprit is a chemical reaction between the IR filter film and water vapor, the only issue is the rate of corrosion. Unfortunately, I also agree Ronald M's conclusion that sensor replacement is inevitable. I wonder if the best course of action is to replace the sensor now when there is an ample supply on hand.
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Old 01-07-2018   #9
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I live close to the water here in Florida. It can get very humid. How can I escape humidity?
I guess, my Leica digital camera(s) are always in danger of getting such damage nto the sensor. Right?
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Old 01-07-2018   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
I don't think it's possible to make meaningful predictions.

It's a good sign the visible corrosion sites are growing slowly. If there's additional corrosion that's too small to see at f 8, then it doesn't matter because you can't see it.

So, I will speculate it could be several years before some of those small sites become significantly larger.

I agree with Ronald M's advice regarding humidity.

Since the culprit is a chemical reaction between the IR filter film and water vapor, the only issue is the rate of corrosion. Unfortunately, I also agree Ronald M's conclusion that sensor replacement is inevitable. I wonder if the best course of action is to replace the sensor now when there is an ample supply on hand.
Yes.... don’t wait.
This could become a dead end instead of a turn around
Who knows when Leica will exhaust the sensor supply.
Could be soon could also be never. Why take a chance ?
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Old 01-07-2018   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
I live close to the water here in Florida. It can get very humid. How can I escape humidity?
I guess, my Leica digital camera(s) are always in danger of getting such damage nto the sensor. Right?
There are a number of Leica digital cameras. As far as I'm aware, only the M8-M9 series cameras have this corrosion problem.
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Old 01-07-2018   #12
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I wonder if the replacement sensor for the M9 is more resistant to corrosion.
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Old 01-07-2018   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
There are a number of Leica digital cameras. As far as I'm aware, only the M8-M9 series cameras have this corrosion problem.
In Fact, I think its only the M9-ME cameras. I haven't heard about corrosion in the M8. Somehow different?
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Old 01-07-2018   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
I wonder if the replacement sensor for the M9 is more resistant to corrosion.
I've read here (RFF) and elsewhere that the newest replacement sensor is supposed to be free of the qualities that made the original sensor prone to corrosion. However, I have only read this and don't know if its true. I do know that people looking to buy used M9s/MEs are now very picky about the date of the replaced sensor.....with the idea that the latest version is free of issues.

Raid, I think you and I are pretty late to the sensor replacement game. We should be receiving new, bullet-proof sensors. But when? Its been months...
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Old 01-07-2018   #15
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Originally Posted by rfaspen View Post
In Fact, I think its only the M9-ME cameras.
Also the first Monochrom.
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Old 01-07-2018   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfaspen View Post
I've read here (RFF) and elsewhere that the newest replacement sensor is supposed to be free of the qualities that made the original sensor prone to corrosion. However, I have only read this and don't know if its true. I do know that people looking to buy used M9s/MEs are now very picky about the date of the replaced sensor.....with the idea that the latest version is free of issues.

Raid, I think you and I are pretty late to the sensor replacement game. We should be receiving new, bullet-proof sensors. But when? Its been months...
No, I am fine there. I mailed Leica my M9 before last August. They gave me a M240 loaner. It may have been a special case for me.
I checked today with a lens rental place. They ask for $350/week for the M240.
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Old 01-07-2018   #17
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Originally Posted by rfaspen View Post
In Fact, I think its only the M9-ME cameras. I haven't heard about corrosion in the M8. Somehow different?
My M8 is fine so far. It may be only the M9/ME, as you have said.
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Old 01-07-2018   #18
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Good point about the continued availability of replacement sensors...

I think I would get the sensor replaced sooner rather than later. I know the hesitation because its hard to send off a camera you like and use frequently.
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Old 01-07-2018   #19
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i ve changed my ME sensor 3 times since 2013

it can be bad... even shooting at wide open.. the 2nd time corrosion show many patch like fungus and spots with spiculated hands, all over the frame ...

unfortunately, I feel the 3 rd sensor .. is quite different with previous 2 .... the one that warranty not corroded

the color is a bit different and i get a lot of IR leak and a bit moire (which never happen ever with last 2 ccd sensor)

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Old 01-07-2018   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
I wonder if the replacement sensor for the M9 is more resistant to corrosion.
Raid,

I sure hope the replacement sensor is more resistant to corrosion!

It would be a pain to have to deal with the sensor issue again in the future.

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Old 01-08-2018   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
I wonder if the replacement sensor for the M9 is more resistant to corrosion.
receive mine (for the 3rd replacement) in Oct 2017, Leica store said.. this one is warrantied not to be corroded again since this one is different ...

the store people said this newest ccd sensor wont be corroded again like previous one... so next sensor replacement is not free ..since the new type wont be corroded

well.. it sure are different.. the color and ir leak different


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Old 01-08-2018   #22
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M8 has its own selection of issues, but luckily this corrosion thing isn't one of them
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Old 01-08-2018   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
I live close to the water here in Florida. It can get very humid. How can I escape humidity?
I guess, my Leica digital camera(s) are always in danger of getting such damage nto the sensor. Right?
These days my memory is often wrong. But, I thought you took advantage of the M9 sensor assembly replacement program.

At any rate, only the M9 first-generation sensor has an IR filter film that reacts with water vapor. All other Leica digital camera sensor assemblies either don't have an IR filter or their IR filter film is chemically inert to water vapor.
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M9 Sensor
Old 01-09-2018   #24
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M9 Sensor

Can someone direct me to a link showing that the most recent sensor replacement is a CCD sensor. I am under the impression that it is Cmos and as close as they could come to the CCD rendering.

The M8 CCD sensor has never been included in the recall and I've never heard of a M8 with sensor corrosion.

I need to pay closer attention to the issue as I own an M8 and wouldn't want to be caught off guard to facts I'm unaware of.
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Old 01-09-2018   #25
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No corrosion problem with the M8 models, as Jarski said. The M9-family replacement sensors are CCD as the original, but with a different IR reflective cover glass. Some claim to see a slight difference in color rendition though. Not CMOS, as that would require different electronics, as I understand it.
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Old 01-09-2018   #26
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If you see problems with it I would try to change it.

I have a M9 with original sensor and have not seen any problems (yet). If it will come it will come, I don't worry about it. It problems develope I'll look in to having it changed but I might also look for a camera upgrade. New sensors will probably not be around forever but I see no point to worry about it.
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Old 01-10-2018   #27
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wonder what is price of otherwise decent M9/ME, with original sensor? (assuming both buyer and seller are aware of the corrosion issue). risky purchase so should reflect in the price.
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Old 01-10-2018   #28
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Used is around 2.5K$, new or old in order sensor. NiB M-E were still popping out in 2017 for 3K$.
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Old 01-10-2018   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raid View Post
I wonder if the replacement sensor for the M9 is more resistant to corrosion.
The replacement M9 sensor uses an IR filter film material that does not react with water vapor.
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Old 01-10-2018   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfaspen View Post
In Fact, I think its only the M9-ME cameras. I haven't heard about corrosion in the M8. Somehow different?
Well, the M8 doesn't have an IR filter film layer in the sensor assembly cover glass(or anywhere at all actually).
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Old 01-10-2018   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TR3B View Post
Can someone direct me to a link showing that the most recent sensor replacement is a CCD sensor. I am under the impression that it is Cmos and as close as they could come to the CCD rendering.

...
CCD vs. CMOS has nothing too do with rendering. Creating electrical charge from photoelectrons and and converting that charge into DC voltage is not going to affect rendering.[1]

However, the sensor color-filter array and IR filter bandwidth characteristics, the sensor micro-lens optics and the camera read noise statistics (not noise levels) could impact rendering perception. That is, the information content for spatial array of DC voltage levels covered to binary values can be quite different.

Consider, with CCD or CMOS, all you have to do is use lenses with radically different optical designs to affect rendering aesthetics.

Anyway, the new M9 sensor assembly uses an old-fashioned CCD photo-diode array sensor bed. Obviously the new IR filter layer material is different. I don't think there's any data on it's bandwidth characteristics. One could speculate modification to the color-filter array materials could compensate for any rendering differences in the IR filter characteristics.

I think it's clear Leica spent significant resources trying to minimize rendering differences been the new and original M9 sensor assemblies.

1/ CCD and CMOS photos-diodes have frequency response differences. These differences occur just outside both ends (red and blue) of the the visible spectrum. These differences are typically much smaller than differences in CFA and IR filter charcateristics.
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Old 01-20-2018   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
Well, the M8 doesn't have an IR filter film layer in the sensor assembly cover glass(or anywhere at all actually).
I'm sorry to be a pedant but that is not true:

The M8’s very high image quality was achieved by – among other things - employing an especially thin IR blocking filter on the CCD sensor.
Increasing the filter thickness would have led to a deterioration of the image quality, especially in the frame corners.
http://en.leica-camera.com/layout/se...ns/(offset)/30
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Old 01-20-2018   #33
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If the sensor isn’t changed does it become the M9 Lomo edition?
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Old 01-20-2018   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisLivsey View Post
I'm sorry to be a pedant but that is not true:

The M8’s very high image quality was achieved by – among other things - employing an especially thin IR blocking filter on the CCD sensor.
Increasing the filter thickness would have led to a deterioration of the image quality, especially in the frame corners.
http://en.leica-camera.com/layout/se...ns/(offset)/30
I sincerely appreciate your correction.

We are left to speculate the M8's ineffective IR filter film is similar to other brands in terms of its chemical properties... namely it does not react with water vapor.
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Old 01-20-2018   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
We are left to speculate the M8's ineffective IR filter film is similar to other brands in terms of its chemical properties... namely it does not react with water vapor.
I think it was the adhesive used to cement the cover glass (or filter) that went bad on the M9, and not the glass itself.
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Old 01-20-2018   #36
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It is not clear whether or not all M-E's are affected. Mine, which I bought in 2015, does not show corrosion. I currently live in Asia which is super humid and very dusty and the sensor is a dust magnet. I can't have the camera checked and so I'll just keep on using the rocket blower and the visible dust swabs and hope for the best.
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Old 01-20-2018   #37
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Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
I sincerely appreciate your correction.
Thank you for the understanding response, it is not with pleasure I correct but for those coming later that may be led astray. As an M8 owner I agree it may as well not have any IR filter over the sensor
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Old 01-20-2018   #38
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It is not clear whether or not all M-E's are affected. Mine, which I bought in 2015, does not show corrosion. I currently live in Asia which is super humid and very dusty and the sensor is a dust magnet. I can't have the camera checked and so I'll just keep on using the rocket blower and the visible dust swabs and hope for the best.
If corrosion is here all you need is one clear sky shot with f16.
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Old 01-20-2018   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob-F View Post
I think it was the adhesive used to cement the cover glass (or filter) that went bad on the M9, and not the glass itself.
Leica said: The sensors are equipped with a specially coated IR filter cover glass to ensure optimum imaging performance. Should this coating layer be damaged, corrosion effects that alter the filter surface may begin to appear after several years.

It was not the adhesive, it was the coating layer.

The filter in question is:
http://www.schott.com/d/advanced_opt...ay-2016-en.pdf

This now shows "long term changes of the polished surface are possible"
I say now because this data sheet was revised post the issues discovered in the M9 series.
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Old 01-20-2018   #40
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If corrosion is here all you need is one clear sky shot with f16.
Not really, when you google 'corrosion leica m9 - m-e' you'll find a lot of shots with corrosion -including spots with a white halo and fungus type of abnormalities. In my case, it all seems to be crud.
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