Silberra? New analog start-up.
Old 10-24-2017   #1
sepiareverb
genius and moron
 
sepiareverb's Avatar
 
sepiareverb is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St Johnsbury VT
Posts: 8,274
Silberra? New analog start-up.

This came to me out of the blue.


Silbera, a new line of films, papers and chemistry?

Their Indegogo Site

They are starting out with some films tweaked from Agfa Survellience recipes, three ISOs. Not seeing anything about the papers yet, but some chemistry is on their site.

Some more info here.
__________________
-Bob
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2017   #2
Larry Cloetta
Registered User
 
Larry Cloetta is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Jackson, WY
Age: 69
Posts: 1,450
17 developers and at least 13 different films that I see on cursory look. If doing vaporware, go big, or go home©.

I know I am perhaps being overly negative, but it seems at first glance to be a bit fanciful, in a world where Kodak can't even source 120 backing paper that works.
This afternoon I am starting an Indiegogo page myself. First project, Saturn Five rocket.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2017   #3
Ko.Fe.
Kostya Fedot
 
Ko.Fe.'s Avatar
 
Ko.Fe. is offline
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MiltON.ONtario
Posts: 7,185
Yes, I read about it on rangefinder.ru.
Something like one film is somehow available, more are in testing.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2017   #4
Oren Grad
Registered User
 
Oren Grad is offline
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiareverb View Post
They are starting out with some films tweaked from Agfa Survellience recipes...
And from the description in the interview...

ORTA, our orthochromatic film is being produced in partnership with a partner that specialises in producing slow, very high resolution films and material for the holographic industry. They have been around since 1930 and also still produce glass plates, technical copying film....

...the manufacturer for the planned ortho film must be Slavich.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2017   #5
michaelwj
----------------
 
michaelwj's Avatar
 
michaelwj is offline
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Brisbane AUS
Posts: 2,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
This afternoon I am starting an Indiegogo page myself. First project, Saturn Five rocket.
Wicked! I can't wait to see the prototype!
__________________
Cheers,
Michael
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-24-2017   #6
HHPhoto
Registered User
 
HHPhoto is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,694
Hi,

all the information on the site so far indicates that it is just another re-packaging business.
Using already existing Agfa (Belgium), Slavich and / or Tasma film stocks.
Do we really need the same films again and again in different boxes?
I don't think so.

Cheers, Jan
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-09-2017   #7
sepiareverb
genius and moron
 
sepiareverb's Avatar
 
sepiareverb is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St Johnsbury VT
Posts: 8,274
Well, seems like they have several Ortho films in beta, and the Pan films they say are:

Quote:
"derived from Agfa surveillance film."
From their Indegogo:

Quote:
"Now we have 3 versions of Silberra PAN films (ISO160, ISO100 and ISO50) plus limited edition of Silberra PAN200 and Silberra Ultima200 (ISO200), which are black&white negative panchromatic films based on modified Agfa emulsions. We're ready to offer those in 35mm format, and we're working hard to start the production of 120 type. This film is 100% ready except packaging."
The Ortho films are:

Quote:
"We have Silberra ORTA series, which is at beta-test phase now: black&white negative orthochromatic film based on totally new emulsions, and it will be available in 35mm format, 120 type and sheet films starting from 4"x5" and up to 8"x10". This film is 85% ready: we need to modify the coating machine to make it up to 100%."
They mention a different company other than Slavich as their partner for coating:

Quote:
"To tell the truth, that film manufacturing story started at February 2017. That was the month we visited Micron, one of the eldest labs here in Russia, with more than 80 years of experience in synthesis and coating of emulsions. They are not playing at mass market, but they do coat some holographic and copy films for various companies, and they have all the technology for coating orthochromatic, isochromatic and panchromatic films. Moreover, they have coating machine. Not the most sophisticated one, but still functioning. That’s why we decided to try engineering orthochromatic emulsion for still photography at Micron lab – when you have skilled professionals and coating machine, you have a good start.



First coatings of ORTA were real problematic: emulsion was going off the substrate, as ISO80 sensitivity gives new qualities to the emulsion (e.g. viscosity is completely different) so Micron had to find right adhesive and hardening component dilution to provide both nice emulsion quality and good adhesive properties. Now that problem is solved, and you can see some ORTA80 and ORTA50 shots on our IG account."
I would love a faster Ortho film.
__________________
-Bob
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-09-2017   #8
Larry Cloetta
Registered User
 
Larry Cloetta is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Jackson, WY
Age: 69
Posts: 1,450
They are pretty far off their goal. Thinking perhaps I should pony up some support, regardless of my initial (or continued, for that matter) skepticism. Instead of just talking about film, and keeping my hands in my pockets.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-09-2017   #9
aizan
Registered User
 
aizan's Avatar
 
aizan is offline
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Age: 37
Posts: 4,572
i'm surprised people aren't hyping the orthochromatic films, seeing how in vogue the 19th century aesthetic is these days. landscape photographers should be clamoring for the ORTA films. i think i'll be getting some right now...
__________________
Ugly Cameras
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-09-2017   #10
kumotaki
Registered User
 
kumotaki is offline
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 41
So. New emulsions, not the usual re-packaging. Good to hear.

Still, the market is full of low ISO b/w films. Doesn't mean that a new brand coming around isn't something cool, but I'd be way happier to hear about a new fast film. Neopan 1600 is dearly missed. Why not to aim at doing something that does not exist anymore? In the 100-200 ISO range, I already have my dev routine dialled in and my fridge full of film and chemicals. I don't really see myself starting all over again.

Is it that harder to produce a fast film? I asked elsewhere in the past and never got an answer.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-09-2017   #11
Freakscene
Deregistered user
 
Freakscene's Avatar
 
Freakscene is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: In exile
Posts: 1,596
Quote:
Originally Posted by kumotaki View Post
Is it that harder to produce a fast film? I asked elsewhere in the past and never got an answer.
Every aspect of emulsion design and formulation and film manufacturing gets logarithmically harder with each stop increase in speed. Buy Delta 3200, these small companies are extremely unlikely to ever produce a usable film with an ISO rating over 400.

Marty
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-09-2017   #12
aizan
Registered User
 
aizan's Avatar
 
aizan is offline
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Age: 37
Posts: 4,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by kumotaki View Post
but I'd be way happier to hear about a new fast film. Neopan 1600 is dearly missed. Why not to aim at doing something that does not exist anymore?
YES. fuji needs to bring back neopan 1600. delta 3200 is really good, but i still want that neopan flavor.

if you get bored of your slow speed films, the new orthochromatic films will spice things up.
__________________
Ugly Cameras
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-10-2017   #13
HHPhoto
Registered User
 
HHPhoto is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,694
Quote:
Originally Posted by kumotaki View Post
So. New emulsions, not the usual re-packaging. Good to hear.
No! You have to differentiate.
We indeed have again the usual re-packaging and partly the usual marketing lies for stupid, marketing brain-washed film-hipsters.

Their Pan film offerings are just re-packed Agfa (Belgium) Aviphot films. With misleading marketing blah-blah in their original indiegogo description, because they speak of "modified" emulsion, which is simply a lie. You cannot tweak an emulsion after coating.
And you can only buy the film at Agfa in the original condition.

Their second misleading marketing nonsense is here in the last sentence (quoted from their "Update 3"):
"Besides, by lucky coincidence, we found an option to get nice panchromatic which was derived from Agfa surveillance film. Engineering such an emulsion and manufacturing that film on our own was too much for us, it costs even more than weíre trying to raise at Indiegogo. But we found the company here in Russia which is buying lots of special film in bulk for their own needs and we managed to have subcontract with them (sorry, folks, NDA prevents more details here). Such a move provided us good film at very reasonable price. Thatís how Silberra PAN film was born. With all the inherited qualities of original surveillance film it gives you very nice tonal range and provides high resolution image, with lower contrast and wider dynamic range when compared to the ancestor. We fell in love with that stock and decided that we must make it available for mass market."

What a bull****!
These films are already available on the mass market for about a decade!!
By Maco/Rollei-Film.
Its exactly the same stuff as Rollei Retro 80S, RPX 25, Superpan 200, Retro 400S, Infrared.

So again, like is has been the case with JCH Street Pan, photographers are considered to be stupid and dishonest marketing is done.
Sorry, but that is counterproductive to the market.
We really don't need all this permanent re-packing of the same films, then often even offered at higher (even extremely high) prices.

Cheers, Jan
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-10-2017   #14
sepiareverb
genius and moron
 
sepiareverb's Avatar
 
sepiareverb is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St Johnsbury VT
Posts: 8,274
If that is the case, and it may be so, or may not be, (as JCH has apparently recoated an old emulsion whether one chooses to believe that or not) if it helps them to produce the Ortho films then I’m in. Their aim is to produce new films.
__________________
-Bob
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-10-2017   #15
kumotaki
Registered User
 
kumotaki is offline
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 41
Ok. New emulsion? Re-packaging? I didn't really take the time to look at it in detail and I don't really care. I have everything I need in the 100-200 ISO range, which amounts to Silvermax and nothing else. I am certainly not bored by it.

Yes, Delta 3200 is still around, but this is one ultra high speed film left, which is not much. I am not sure why I always get the "just use Delta 3200" answer whenever I say that Neopan is missed, but that's what we all do anyway since there is no choice. Still, Neopan could be souped in a greater variety of developers with better results than Delta, IMHO. Sad that something in this vein cannot be easily reproduced.

Now, I also don't really understand the ortho hype, but I admit that I never really had a taste for it. What will the new option offer that Rollei Ortho doesn't?

Anyway, the Silberra packaging looks great in a retro-cool sort of way. Maybe this will bring more hipters to shoot film. This is a good thing, is it not?
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-10-2017   #16
Pioneer
Registered User
 
Pioneer's Avatar
 
Pioneer is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Age: 65
Posts: 3,109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freakscene View Post
Every aspect of emulsion design and formulation and film manufacturing gets logarithmically harder with each stop increase in speed. Buy Delta 3200, these small companies are extremely unlikely to ever produce a usable film with an ISO rating over 400.

Marty
Excellent point Marty. I am getting a bit low on my Delta Pro 3200 so I need to get another order together. Thanks for the reminder.
__________________
You gotta love a fast lens;

It is almost as good as a fast horse!
Dan
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-10-2017   #17
DanskDynamit
Registered User
 
DanskDynamit's Avatar
 
DanskDynamit is offline
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by HHPhoto View Post
No! You have to differentiate.
We indeed have again the usual re-packaging and partly the usual marketing lies for stupid, marketing brain-washed film-hipsters.

Their Pan film offerings are just re-packed Agfa (Belgium) Aviphot films. With misleading marketing blah-blah in their original indiegogo description, because they speak of "modified" emulsion, which is simply a lie. You cannot tweak an emulsion after coating.
And you can only buy the film at Agfa in the original condition.

Their second misleading marketing nonsense is here in the last sentence (quoted from their "Update 3"):
"Besides, by lucky coincidence, we found an option to get nice panchromatic which was derived from Agfa surveillance film. Engineering such an emulsion and manufacturing that film on our own was too much for us, it costs even more than weíre trying to raise at Indiegogo. But we found the company here in Russia which is buying lots of special film in bulk for their own needs and we managed to have subcontract with them (sorry, folks, NDA prevents more details here). Such a move provided us good film at very reasonable price. Thatís how Silberra PAN film was born. With all the inherited qualities of original surveillance film it gives you very nice tonal range and provides high resolution image, with lower contrast and wider dynamic range when compared to the ancestor. We fell in love with that stock and decided that we must make it available for mass market."

What a bull****!
These films are already available on the mass market for about a decade!!
By Maco/Rollei-Film.
Its exactly the same stuff as Rollei Retro 80S, RPX 25, Superpan 200, Retro 400S, Infrared.

So again, like is has been the case with JCH Street Pan, photographers are considered to be stupid and dishonest marketing is done.
Sorry, but that is counterproductive to the market.
We really don't need all this permanent re-packing of the same films, then often even offered at higher (even extremely high) prices.

Cheers, Jan
word.

10 characters.
__________________
DanskDynamit
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-10-2017   #18
aizan
Registered User
 
aizan's Avatar
 
aizan is offline
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Age: 37
Posts: 4,572
has anyone created a database and a diagram showing all of the relabeled films there are on the market? i think people would find that very interesting, and it would help people understand how the distribution and marketing of film works. i bet people would get upset less often, too.

one thing i really appreciate is how transparent they are about what they're doing.
__________________
Ugly Cameras
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-11-2017   #19
sepiareverb
genius and moron
 
sepiareverb's Avatar
 
sepiareverb is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St Johnsbury VT
Posts: 8,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by kumotaki View Post
... I have everything I need in the 100-200 ISO range, which amounts to Silvermax and nothing else. I am certainly not bored by it...
Some (not me) might consider this part of the problem...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumotaki View Post
Now, I also don't really understand the ortho hype, but I admit that I never really had a taste for it. What will the new option offer that Rollei Ortho doesn't?
Faster emulsions. Would certainly allow me to shoot on a wider variety of days, which I am quite looking forward to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumotaki View Post
Anyway, the Silberra packaging looks great in a retro-cool sort of way. Maybe this will bring more hipters to shoot film. This is a good thing, is it not?
Not if they are only shooting this film to bash Fuji...
__________________
-Bob
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-11-2017   #20
kumotaki
Registered User
 
kumotaki is offline
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiareverb View Post
Some (not me) might consider this part of the problem...
Not sure I get the innuendo, but anyway. At least it is not a problem with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiareverb View Post
Faster emulsions. Would certainly allow me to shoot on a wider variety of days, which I am quite looking forward to.
From 25 to 80, it is not really that faster... but yeah, that's a plus. On the matter, are ortho films inherently slow films? Is there a correlation between speed and color sensitivity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiareverb View Post
Not if they are only shooting this film to bash Fuji...
I am pretty sure Fuji won't mind.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-11-2017   #21
sepiareverb
genius and moron
 
sepiareverb's Avatar
 
sepiareverb is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St Johnsbury VT
Posts: 8,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by kumotaki View Post
... From 25 to 80, it is not really that faster... but yeah, that's a plus. On the matter, are ortho films inherently slow films?
Faster enough for northern VT. I could shoot ISO 80 all day all year, 25 gets tough during the winter here.

I donít know about speed with Ortho. I came to Ortho films when there was only 25 speed ones available in rolls. The Ilford Ortho is ISO 80, but only in sheets.
__________________
-Bob
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #22
Skiff
Registered User
 
Skiff is offline
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 960
Hm, do we really need just another repackaging of the Agfa Aviphot Pan films?
Certainly not. These films are on the worldwide market repacked by Maco Photo under their Rollei film brand.
Available for many years. At very fair prices.

Do we really need another Ortho film?
We already have Ilford Ortho and Rollei Ortho 25 (which is an emulsion made by FilmoTec in Germany).
The market for Ortho films is tiny, it is a niche in a niche in a niche.
Already two suppliers in a tiny market.
If now another one enters the market, that could be dangerous for the established two.
Is the Ortho film market big enough to feed another, a third manufacturer?
I don't think so. Too much manufacturers in a too small market are counterproductive.

And we also already have two orthopanchromatic films on the market: Fuj Acros 100 and Adox CMS 20 II.

Do we generally need another BW film manufacturer?
The BW film market is a small niche market.
But in this small market we already have
- Harman technology / Ilford Photo
- Kodak
- Fujifilm
- Foma
- Agfa (Belgium)
- Adox
- FilmoTec
- InovisCoat (is producing the Bergger Panchro)
- Film Ferrania
- Lucky
- Tasma
- Shanghai

Honestly, that are probably already too much players on the field. No real need for another one.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #23
aizan
Registered User
 
aizan's Avatar
 
aizan is offline
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Age: 37
Posts: 4,572
arguing for more options in fast film, arguing against more options in ortho films. nobody said humans were always logical.
__________________
Ugly Cameras
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #24
Pioneer
Registered User
 
Pioneer's Avatar
 
Pioneer is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Age: 65
Posts: 3,109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
Hm, do we really need just another repackaging of the Agfa Aviphot Pan films?
Certainly not. These films are on the worldwide market repacked by Maco Photo under their Rollei film brand.
Available for many years. At very fair prices.

Do we really need another Ortho film?
We already have Ilford Ortho and Rollei Ortho 25 (which is an emulsion made by FilmoTec in Germany).
The market for Ortho films is tiny, it is a niche in a niche in a niche.
Already two suppliers in a tiny market.
If now another one enters the market, that could be dangerous for the established two.
Is the Ortho film market big enough to feed another, a third manufacturer?
I don't think so. Too much manufacturers in a too small market are counterproductive.

And we also already have two orthopanchromatic films on the market: Fuj Acros 100 and Adox CMS 20 II.

Do we generally need another BW film manufacturer?
The BW film market is a small niche market.
But in this small market we already have
- Harman technology / Ilford Photo
- Kodak
- Fujifilm
- Foma
- Agfa (Belgium)
- Adox
- FilmoTec
- InovisCoat (is producing the Bergger Panchro)
- Film Ferrania
- Lucky
- Tasma
- Shanghai

Honestly, that are probably already too much players on the field. No real need for another one.
WARNING - Extreme Sarcasm Alert -

In a word...Yes!

What genius do all of you think you possess that makes you the final arbiter of who should or should not be selling film?

Maybe the next one out of the gate will do a better job at a better price. Maybe they won't. I have no idea until they try and truthfully, neither do you or anyone else.

I am absolutely flabbergasted at this attitude of not needing more films. There are tons of emulsions that have been discontinued in the last 20 years that I would love to see come back again.

I wish Silberra all the success in the world and I sincerely hope they are successful. Maybe they will come up with a good replacement for Efke 25. Once they pull that off there are a few other emulsions I would like to see them start coating.
__________________
You gotta love a fast lens;

It is almost as good as a fast horse!
Dan
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #25
sepiareverb
genius and moron
 
sepiareverb's Avatar
 
sepiareverb is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St Johnsbury VT
Posts: 8,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
WARNING - Extreme Sarcasm Alert -

In a word...Yes!

What genius do all of you think you possess that makes you the final arbiter of who should or should not be selling film?

Maybe the next one out of the gate will do a better job at a better price. Maybe they won't. I have no idea until they try and truthfully, neither do you or anyone else.

I am absolutely flabbergasted at this attitude of not needing more films. There are tons of emulsions that have been discontinued in the last 20 years that I would love to see come back again.

I wish Silberra all the success in the world and I sincerely hope they are successful. Maybe they will come up with a good replacement for Efke 25. Once they pull that off there are a few other emulsions I would like to see them start coating.
Thanks Dan. With the apparent lack of interest in film from Fuji and the seeming lack of ability from Kodak these smaller companies are likely the future, with Ilford and Filmotec as the big ones.

After reading all the mud slinging at Kodak over the backing paper problems I thought that an ambitious new player in the game would be better received.

*edit: I’m not bashing Fuji with this post. I really do find it hard to believe that they have much reason to continue to produce film if the bottom line is not big enough, and it seems to be not big enough for them. They are consolidating again into fewer offerings this year. Not just in package sizes, several emulsions are going away in certain sizes or entirely. Reality of the market seems to be that a big company without the capacity to work on a small scale is likely not going to be around for much longer.
__________________
-Bob
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #26
MikeMGB
Registered User
 
MikeMGB's Avatar
 
MikeMGB is offline
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 211
I backed this company on Indiegogo, as far as I am concerned the more manufacturers there are out there the better.
__________________
35mm, 120, 127, 620, 116, LTM, M, M42, TLR
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #27
sepiareverb
genius and moron
 
sepiareverb's Avatar
 
sepiareverb is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St Johnsbury VT
Posts: 8,274
Was thinking I might back them again.
__________________
-Bob
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #28
Lux Optima
Registered User
 
Lux Optima is offline
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 66
They are not only selling (or repacking) films, but paper and chemistry as well. Hope they will thrive. And you're right: The more competition the better.
__________________
Cheers, Stefan
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #29
lxmike
Barnack fan
 
lxmike's Avatar
 
lxmike is offline
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Co Durham NE England
Age: 53
Posts: 3,245
In my fifties now, in the 1970's on going into any camera shop, such as Bonsers, (Newcastle), you were met by at least one wall of film, happy days, for me the time to worry is when we have no film
__________________
Currently loaded: Leica IIIc. IIIg and Bronica ERTS.

Glass currently in regular use: Voigtlander 15mm 4.5 Helliar

Soon to arrive Leica MDa

myblog:lifefromawindow
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #30
brbo
Registered User
 
brbo's Avatar
 
brbo is offline
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,436
The question whether we can have YET ANOTHER film repackager has already been answered.

Agfa-Gevaert obviously thinks that is perfectly OK for them to sell their film to anyone who wants to market them under any name they want. So...

I really wonder about the motivation of some people here that think the users of film would be better off with tons of film rotting away in the warehouses. Besides, any film producer (that is deemed worthy of being called film producer) is free to do a better job at marketing their own stuff.
__________________

  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #31
sepiareverb
genius and moron
 
sepiareverb's Avatar
 
sepiareverb is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St Johnsbury VT
Posts: 8,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by brbo View Post
...

Agfa-Gevaert obviously thinks that is perfectly OK for them to sell their film to anyone who wants to market them under any name they want. So...
And Fuji did it, Kodak did it, FOMA still does it.
__________________
-Bob
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #32
Skiff
Registered User
 
Skiff is offline
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 960
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer View Post
WARNING - Extreme Sarcasm Alert -

In a word...Yes!

What genius do all of you think you possess that makes you the final arbiter of who should or should not be selling film?

Maybe the next one out of the gate will do a better job at a better price. Maybe they won't. I have no idea until they try and truthfully, neither do you or anyone else.

I am absolutely flabbergasted at this attitude of not needing more films. There are tons of emulsions that have been discontinued in the last 20 years that I would love to see come back again.

I wish Silberra all the success in the world and I sincerely hope they are successful. Maybe they will come up with a good replacement for Efke 25. Once they pull that off there are a few other emulsions I would like to see them start coating.
Your sarcasm aside, your comment clearly demonstrates your lack of knowledge in economics, and your lack of knowledge of the current film market.
The situation in the BW film market is that we have lots of different manufacturers with huge over-capacities .
And an already very brutal competition which leads to too low margins and too low profitability in this industry.
In such a situation with huge over-capacities and too much players every new players will worsen this problematic situation.

The bitter truth is for example, that because of this murderous competition Ilford and Maco are trying to kick Adox out of the market by brutal, unethical methods: They are blackmailing important material suppliers and forced them to stop shipping to Adox (a friend of mine has lost his job because of that).

And one of the reasons why so much films had to be discontinued is that there have been too much films in a too small market.
Too brutal competition, too much cannibalization effects.
That is the bitter truth.

And neither the market for aerial-/surveillance films (the Agfa stuff), nor the Ortho film market is growing. The first is even declining.
So another supplier will even worsen the situation.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #33
Skiff
Registered User
 
Skiff is offline
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 960
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiareverb View Post
Thanks Dan. With the apparent lack of interest in film from Fuji and the seeming lack of ability from Kodak these smaller companies are likely the future, with Ilford and Filmotec as the big ones.
???
Filmotec is one of the smallest BW film manufacturers! Less than 20 people are working there.
They don't have an own coating machine! They only can do emulsions by themselves. Curently coating of their films is done by Ilford.
And Ilford knows and misuses its market power. They have forbidden Filmotec to cooperate with some other companies.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #34
Skiff
Registered User
 
Skiff is offline
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 960
Quote:
Originally Posted by aizan View Post
arguing for more options in fast film, arguing against more options in ortho films. nobody said humans were always logical.
I have never argued for more options in fast film.
Because I know why the demand for fast films above ISO 400 has declined so strongly:
Most photographers are using digital now when they need very high sensivities.
And even if your are an enthusiastic film user you today need very high speeds much less than 15-20 years ago. Because of the much better faster lenses, which gives you 1-2 stops more real speed and flexibility.
And because of the lenses with image stabilisation / vibration reduction technology, which give you an 2-5 stop speed advantage.
And beacause of the outstanding modern fill-in flash technology, which offers you very natural looking and perfect exposed shots with flash: If there is not enough light, just create the light. Problem solved.

In former times I used ISO 1600 and 3200 films. Today - in the same situations - I don't need these films anymore: Instead I am using ISO 400 films (and enjoy their better quality compared to the higher speed films) and my improved f1.4 lenses, and / or modern fill-in flash technology.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #35
Skiff
Registered User
 
Skiff is offline
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 960
Quote:
Originally Posted by brbo View Post
I really wonder about the motivation of some people here that think the users of film would be better off with tons of film rotting away in the warehouses. Besides, any film producer (that is deemed worthy of being called film producer) is free to do a better job at marketing their own stuff.
That's wrong:
No film is "rotting in a warehouse".
Agfa is selling its films to their aerial and surveillance customers. And to Maco / Rollei-Film.
And Silberra has clearly said, that they don't have bought the Agfa film at Agfa, but at a customer of Agfa.
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #36
brbo
Registered User
 
brbo's Avatar
 
brbo is offline
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
That's wrong:
No film is "rotting in a warehouse".
One has to wonder about your reading comprehension abilities. I never said such a thing.

You do understand that Agfa film is Agfa film, no matter how many hands it switches?
__________________

  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #37
Freakscene
Deregistered user
 
Freakscene's Avatar
 
Freakscene is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: In exile
Posts: 1,596
I have backed Silberra. A nice EI 200 film with really good tonality and flexibility in different developers would be great for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumotaki View Post
Yes, Delta 3200 is still around, but this is one ultra high speed film left, which is not much. I am not sure why I always get the "just use Delta 3200" answer whenever I say that Neopan is missed, but that's what we all do anyway since there is no choice.
Realism - Fuji won't manufacture it again, and these small companies, even if they had access to the formula, probably couldn't replicate it. You need Fuji's size and R&D capacity to manufacture these sorts of products. Everyone overlooks, forgets, or fails to understand that photographic film is one of the most evolved and technically challenging to manufacture consumer products ever put to market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kumotaki View Post
Still, Neopan could be souped in a greater variety of developers with better results than Delta, IMHO. Sad that something in this vein cannot be easily reproduced.
HP5+ in speed enhancing developers looks a lot like Neopan 1600. The native ISO of HP5+ in DD-X is about 640, about the same as Neopan 1600s native ISO, and HP5+ pushes to 3200 fine in DD-X, or TMax or TMax-RS. You can open the shadows a lot in dilute Xtol, it pushes reasonably well in stock or replenished Xtol, and it looks very broody and dark in Rodinal, although it loses a lot of speed, but so did Neopan 1600. The tonality is very similar. You can get it too, and that saves time spend fussing or complaining.


Neopan 1600 in TMax 1+4

Marty
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-12-2017   #38
Pioneer
Registered User
 
Pioneer's Avatar
 
Pioneer is offline
Join Date: Dec 2011
Age: 65
Posts: 3,109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiff View Post
Your sarcasm aside, your comment clearly demonstrates your lack of knowledge in economics, and your lack of knowledge of the current film market.
The situation in the BW film market is that we have lots of different manufacturers with huge over-capacities .
And an already very brutal competition which leads to too low margins and too low profitability in this industry.
In such a situation with huge over-capacities and too much players every new players will worsen this problematic situation.

The bitter truth is for example, that because of this murderous competition Ilford and Maco are trying to kick Adox out of the market by brutal, unethical methods: They are blackmailing important material suppliers and forced them to stop shipping to Adox (a friend of mine has lost his job because of that).

And one of the reasons why so much films had to be discontinued is that there have been too much films in a too small market.
Too brutal competition, too much cannibalization effects.
That is the bitter truth.

And neither the market for aerial-/surveillance films (the Agfa stuff), nor the Ortho film market is growing. The first is even declining.
So another supplier will even worsen the situation.
Thanks for your concern Skiff. Interestingly I did quite well in economics. Perhaps it was my professor who misled me.

Brutal competition is a fact of life in all business. I am sorry your friend has been adversely effected and I wish him/her luck. But the answer, though it seems tempting, is not to stop the entry of new players. I hope Adox is able to survive because they have a couple of films that I am very fond of and use regularly.

And just to clear up a few misconceptions...Efke 25 was discontinued for reasons other than lack of market. Likewise, several Kodak and Fuji films have discontinued because the market size wasn't large enough to make them happy. That is quite a bit different from there being no market at all.

Oft times smaller, leaner operations are able to make money where large companies with greatly oversized capacity cannot. I think Ilford is a pretty good example of this principle.

There are always different perspectives. Mine just happens to be different than yours.
__________________
You gotta love a fast lens;

It is almost as good as a fast horse!
Dan
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #39
sepiareverb
genius and moron
 
sepiareverb's Avatar
 
sepiareverb is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St Johnsbury VT
Posts: 8,274
Interesting take on the subject:

https://www.35mmc.com/08/11/2017/sto...aphy-industry/

https://www.diyphotography.net/crowd...io+Lighting%29
__________________
-Bob
  Reply With Quote

Old 11-15-2017   #40
Larry Cloetta
Registered User
 
Larry Cloetta is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Jackson, WY
Age: 69
Posts: 1,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiareverb View Post
I'd have to agree with the sentiments in the linked articles, though some people obviously don't. Nothing in the future is "inevitable", including the demise of the film community. Things are only inevitable in hindsight. Anything which fosters confidence feeds on itself; more people making film is not a bad thing. The bad thing for the film community is the promulgation of the notion that any attempt to make more film is a bad thing, based on the false premise that "economics " says so. There is no static "pie" which needs to be divided among the players, so that if there are more players, every player gets a smaller piece.
Anyway, this Polyanna signed on for some orthochromatic film.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:44.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.