eBay scammer - IIIF
Old 12-02-2016   #1
GarageBoy
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eBay scammer - IIIF

So I sell a IIIF on eBay, buyer pays, I mail it to China, he tells me, it got scratched in transit, and shows me pics of a well used Leica - I tell him, no way that happened, chrome doesn't wear like that, also, why are they pics of a IIIC -?
Awaiting his response- how else can I protect myself now? Already complained to eBay about him, but all they did was log it
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Old 12-02-2016   #2
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you can't protect yourself really. Buyer has most of the protection. Next time, don't sell and mail to China. Actually, only sell in your country to avoid issues.
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Old 12-02-2016   #3
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I am waiting for the Chinese to directly copy the IIIf and maybe this time produce a more decent copy than the Shanghai 58 model.
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Old 12-02-2016   #4
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You will have to appeal your case with Ebay showing pictures of both cameras and explaining how they are different models.
I assume Paypal is holding your money?
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Old 12-02-2016   #5
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Not holding my money yet. He tried to tell me he reported to eBay and they told him to start a claim, but he doesn't want to do that because it would lock up my PayPal and hes giving me a chance to make it right...
I'm just trying to take the defense

Postal records indicate it was delivered 12 hrs ago, and he claims he already contacted eBay and got an answer...

Not the first time its happened to me
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Old 12-02-2016   #6
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You cannot protect yourself. eBay will in some way screw you on this, they chance is slim you will like the final result.

Now you have learned a valuable lesson, sell in the country where you live, if you insist on selling cameras on eBay.

I personally would never sell any electronics or cameras on eBay, but I understand many of our members are not in big cities. There are however several forum connected sales venues -- like the one on the RFF, where you stand a much better chance of a clean sale.

The advantage of the RFF is that you, not eBay, choose your buyer. You can call the potential buyer on the phone, confirm identities etc, a choose who you want to sell to. The highest bidder is not always the best bidder. You can even not sell to anyone if you don't want to, without getting bad feedback. You are in control of your sale.

Do bad things happen on the RFF, of course, but far fewer than we ever hear about on eBay.

Just for the record, of course I am an RFF mod, but I have been buying and selling cameras on a personal level since the days of Shutterbug mag ads in the '80s, and I have always insisted on knowing my buyer, and seller. It works, and is worth the small price of an RFF ad, and I don't get a penny.
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Old 12-02-2016   #7
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It should be as simple as showing ebay it was a different camera model with a different serial number. Add this to the reasons I don't ship outside of the US.
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Old 12-02-2016   #8
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Yeah, but then what's stopping him from claiming I sent a different camera?
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Old 12-02-2016   #9
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Quote:
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Yeah, but then what's stopping him from claiming I sent a different camera?
nothing. and if you agree to accepting a return of your exact camera there is nothing you can do if he sends a brick back to you. ebay rarely sides with sellers in these circumstances. you're in for a long trip of ****ery at the hands of this buyer and ebay. I hope it works out for you but the reality is you are in a bad state with this. i have about 7,000 transactions on eBay and sometimes run into problems like this.

it'a all part of the problem and issues if you use ebay to sell stuff.
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Old 12-02-2016   #10
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\_(ツ)_/ Didn't think of that.
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Old 12-02-2016   #11
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Old 12-02-2016   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster View Post

The advantage of the RFF is that you, not eBay, choose your buyer. You can call the potential buyer on the phone, confirm identities etc, a choose who you want to sell to. The highest bidder is not always the best bidder. You can even not sell to anyone if you don't want to, without getting bad feedback. You are in control of your sale.

Do bad things happen on the RFF, of course, but far fewer than we ever hear about on eBay.
I've been taken twice by buying cameras off this site, so I would not claim it is any better than ebay.
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Old 12-02-2016   #13
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The siren song of getting more money by opening your eBay auction up to the world, for me has always been overpowered by the nightmare of dealing with situations just like this.
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Old 12-02-2016   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster View Post
The advantage of the RFF is that you, not eBay, choose your buyer. You can call the potential buyer on the phone, confirm identities etc, a choose who you want to sell to. The highest bidder is not always the best bidder. You can even not sell to anyone if you don't want to, without getting bad feedback. You are in control of your sale.

Do bad things happen on the RFF, of course, but far fewer than we ever hear about on eBay.
I've had very good results buying and selling thru RFF. Far better than I have had with the big auction site. But I still limit sales to my own country, except in very rare occasions where I have had an ongoing relationship thru this forum with an individual in another country.
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Old 12-02-2016   #15
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Can I ask if the sale was through the "global shipping program"?
And also, why not give us the name of the scoundrel so that we can avoid selling to him? or a hint of the name?
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Old 12-02-2016   #16
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I lived through one of those scams myself. I sold a black Contax G2 on ebay to Hong Kong. Just 1 day after my shipment date the buyer complained to ebay that he didn't get the camera. Then, when he got it he claimed that G2 is full of scratches, therefore he wanted a partial refund. I said that as a matter of principle I don't issue any partial refunds. I asked him to ship the camera back to me, and I return his money. Fortunately, that was the end of it. It's a good idea to take pictures of the camera and packing.
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Old 12-02-2016   #17
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eBay can be a pain for sellers but I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about what will happen. The system revolves around people jumping thru the hoops they demand; so if the OP puts his case clearly, and demands the seller PROVES that is the camera that arrived, then he has a good chance.

And no, buyers can't simply return a brick. All you would need to do if suspicious is record yourself opening the package on your phone. eBay does automatically refund when a purchase, returned tracked, is marked as delivered - in that case, the OP simply needs to file an Appeal.

Good luck op. You are unlucky enough to have encountered a crook, so make sure you scrupulously follow every eBay step. Would be interested to see others' thoughts, but I think at this point it would be worth calling eBay CS, tell them what you think is going on, ie levelling with them, and seeing how they will protect you.
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Old 12-02-2016   #18
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Zhouxi2010

I undercharged him for shipping too
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Old 12-02-2016   #19
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I've been lucky in that i haven't run into this yet. But my next auctions will go up with no international shipping options whatsoever.
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Old 12-02-2016   #20
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This won't help the OP but there are two steps I always take when selling on Ebay, and I make both completely clear in the auction listing.

1. I always ship internationally through the Global Shipping Program. It is expensive for the buyer, and no doubt loses me some potential sales, but there is no question on whether an item is delivered while Ebay eats the cost if it isn't delivered.

2. I never agree to a partial refund. I only allow refunds if the item proves to be materially different to the description. (For example, on one occasion I was listing a number of different lenses and accidentally copy/pasted text stating the lens was haze free on a lens that was indeed hazy...immediate refund issued when the buyer questioned me.)

I recently sold a very nice Jupiter-3 to a Hong Kong based buyer. The buyer quickly complained that it was hazy, even included a photograph of the fogged lens (simple to do, chill the lens and take it out into warm, moist air). The buyer wanted a partial refund to cover the cost of a CLA on a lens that had been CLA'd 90 days earlier. I told the buyer that if he was unhappy he could return the lens for a full refund and never heard another word from him. Sometimes you get a win.
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Old 12-02-2016   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul T. View Post
eBay can be a pain for sellers but I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about what will happen. The system revolves around people jumping thru the hoops they demand; so if the OP puts his case clearly, and demands the seller PROVES that is the camera that arrived, then he has a good chance.

And no, buyers can't simply return a brick. All you would need to do if suspicious is record yourself opening the package on your phone. eBay does automatically refund when a purchase, returned tracked, is marked as delivered - in that case, the OP simply needs to file an Appeal.

Good luck op. You are unlucky enough to have encountered a crook, so make sure you scrupulously follow every eBay step. Would be interested to see others' thoughts, but I think at this point it would be worth calling eBay CS, tell them what you think is going on, ie levelling with them, and seeing how they will protect you.
No, actually, recording or providing any evidence does not work in the vast majority of circumstances. And they won't do much to protect him if anything regardless of what he does. For the record, I have had an actual brick returned instead of some gear I sold. Jumped through hoops with eBay and no resolution for me but being out the stuff I sold and the money I received and the shipping costs to and back incurred. Brace yourself for the worst OP.
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Old 12-02-2016   #22
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I'm surprised to learn what shipping under USPS with full sold price and insurance coverage means actually nothing.

Quote:
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...
1. I always ship internationally through the Global Shipping Program. It is expensive for the buyer, and no doubt loses me some potential sales, but there is no question on whether an item is delivered while Ebay eats the cost if it isn't delivered.
.
First, I have to pay for customs and duties which simply not exist and never collected and then I'm watching on ebay tracking how item is jumping between some weird shipping services which reminding me local deliveries done buy working for cash drivers on old, rusted vehicles.
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Old 12-02-2016   #23
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My experience mirrors much of above.

That's the reason I call them EvilBay and PainPal.

It does work out some times, but has yet to for me.

B2 (;->
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Old 12-02-2016   #24
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I'm curious how limiting sales to your own country eliminates this potential scenario?
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Old 12-02-2016   #25
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Fewer dodgy people in the US, I guess
Ive sold a Fountain Pen to someone in Hong Kong who tried the same scheme - I was younger at the time, and I went, screw it, here's $20 - on a $700 item and he accepted

Another tried to claim the pen I sold him was a fake and refused to send it back because it's illegal to mail fakes - I schooled him on why it couldn't be a fake and he left me alone - US buyer...
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Old 12-02-2016   #26
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I'm curious how limiting sales to your own country eliminates this potential scenario?
Well, it makes it much easier to go to court, adding to the risk of the scammer.

A Chinese scammer will merely lose one (quite disposable) eBay account, and run afoul of Paypal, but even there he'll be able to continue with a new account nominally run by some yokel, given the enormous income disparity in China.
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Old 12-02-2016   #27
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Fewer dodgy people in the US, I guess
From a European perspective, US buyers are almost as bad as Chinese ones - and from a US perspective, the same will go for European buyers. As I said, the point is that there is a extremely low risk when scamming overseas sellers over mid-price items as the cost of litigation will exceed the value even if you win. So there will always be people into these scams, anywhere...
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Old 12-02-2016   #28
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Kind of ridiculous to think that "only selling within your country" will be any better. I've shipped hundreds of things all over the world (cameras, lenses, prints, etc). The only problems I had were with people in the USA. No need to hate on the Chinese there fellas.
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Old 12-02-2016   #29
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I've been taken twice by buying cameras off this site, so I would not claim it is any better than ebay.
Can you elaborate, not on who, but what happened?

Did you personally contact the sellers to discuss what you were buying? Did you use Paypal?
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Old 12-02-2016   #30
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Buying and selling vintage goods by the owner, to a large market, was hardly possible before Ebay and Paypal, especially moderately priced items.
Before Ebay you either dealt with dealers, or went to flea markets & boot sales.
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Old 12-02-2016   #31
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Kind of ridiculous to think that "only selling within your country" will be any better. I've shipped hundreds of things all over the world (cameras, lenses, prints, etc). The only problems I had were with people in the USA. No need to hate on the Chinese there fellas.
I have done the same, many for sales or purchases which exceeded $10k each. But none of them were "blind" sales. I knew who the seller was, I talked to the seller on the phone, and they all had other sales I knew about.

I only lost money on one large sale due to the buyer dying, and the estate not recognizing a verbal contract. Unfortunate, but stuff happens.

I have however sold and bought hundreds of inexpensive items on eBay, with very few problems. I continue to think nothing of spending a few hundred dollars on eBay, since it all averages out. I collect a lot of stuff, and eBay is unparalleled in availability.

But I will not sell a $10,000 item to an unknown stranger. Just me.

Quote:
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Buying and selling vintage goods by the owner, to a large market, was hardly possible before Ebay and Paypal, especially moderately priced items.
Before Ebay you either dealt with dealers, or went to flea markets & boot sales.
True, but the quality, at least for cameras, was much better by far. Camera shows in the '70s and '80s were simply unbelieveable! And the obvious advantage was you could look at the camera you were about to buy.

I bought cameras which have never appeared (and will never appear) on eBay -- directly from other collectors.
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Old 12-02-2016   #32
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I was in a situation selling the lens (Jupiter-9) to the USA.
A month after I have shipped it the buyer contacted me and reported it had never arrived. I checked the tracking and it said the lens had left my country 27 days ago with no further updates. What could I do? I asked him to wait more. He refused and opened a case (I would do the same if I were him). He won. eBay refunded him for the lens from my PayPal account. I thought well, ok.. Bad luck, and moved on. In a week after that I received a payment from him directly to my PayPal and a letter, stating that the lens has finally arrived. I checked the tracking and it did show he got it the day before (have no idea why did it take so much time to deliver). I thought I should let eBay know and updated the tracking to the case I've lost.
Suddenly eBay sent me a letter, saying they have reconsidered and.. a refund. So I got 2 refunds - 1 from the seller directly to my PayPal and the second - from eBay. I wrote the buyer a letter and he answered that the eBay took his money away from him after my update to the case, so to end this all up at last, I asked him to take no further actions and simply sent him the money via PayPal. And that was the end at last..
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Old 12-02-2016   #33
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I have had the same thing happen. A shipment took a long time to arrive, so the buyer filed a claim and got his money back.

When the item finally arrived, he was honest and paid me for it.

These experiences make up for the scammer situations, which I have found to be pretty rare, but easy to handle. Sold thousands of items on ebay, and I ship to any country as long as it has reliable postal service.

Overall the positive experiences outweigh the negatives by about 99 to 1, over 15+ years, with items from $50 to $25k.

Note to USA ebay sellers, don't ship via priority mail flat rate small box, or flat rate envelope, these will not track to all international destinations (they will of course track to USA destinations.) The item will exit US customs and that will be the end of the online tracking updates, and buyers will be able to file claims and get their money back. Yes, some buyers know this and use it to their advantage. Use the regular priority mail instead but it will it cost more. For pricier items use express, not priority.
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Old 12-02-2016   #34
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Well, it makes it much easier to go to court, adding to the risk of the scammer.

A Chinese scammer will merely lose one (quite disposable) eBay account, and run afoul of Paypal, but even there he'll be able to continue with a new account nominally run by some yokel, given the enormous income disparity in China.
The cost of litigation is far too high for nearly all ebay sales regardless of domestic or international. If this is a serious concern for a seller, then it's best to sell via other means
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Old 12-02-2016   #35
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Overall the positive experiences outweigh the negatives by about 99 to 1, over 15+ years, with items from $50 to $25k.
Just to be clear have you bought and sold $25k items on ebay?

I admit at those levels, I have taken a plane, and my buyers have done the same. When I did ship, I used art shippers.
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Old 12-02-2016   #36
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Yes, I once sold a Phase One back for $25k. I don't recall the largest purchase, but probably in the $5k range.
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Old 12-02-2016   #37
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Quote:
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Well, it makes it much easier to go to court, adding to the risk of the scammer.

A Chinese scammer will merely lose one (quite disposable) eBay account, and run afoul of Paypal, but even there he'll be able to continue with a new account nominally run by some yokel, given the enormous income disparity in China.
It might be easier to go to court, but not really any cheaper.

As for you second paragraph, we can replace Chinese/China, with just about any people/country in the world.

There is an enormous income disparity in every country. To think that a prosperous 1st world country like Germany, USA, or Australia survives without a massive underclass of poverty stricken people is purely naive.

I think this has nothing to do with China, and everything to do with eBay is set up at the moment. For a while, it has been transitioning towards the "power seller" who does 10s of 1000s of sales selling low to medium priced goods. Not worth the effort to scam.
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Old 12-02-2016   #38
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Yes, I once sold a Phase One back for $25k. I don't recall the largest purchase, but probably in the $5k range.
I have friends who have done the same. In "the old days" of ebay, sellers were paid in cash before they shipped, and I was much less worried.

But a Phase One back is probably not a worry, it's those crazy buyers of $200 cameras. But honestly I really have enjoyed great success on eBay.

I was just trying to suggest in my original post that personal contact is probably better than the anonymity of ebay? But the reality is that many people are just not cut out for selling in general.
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Old 12-02-2016   #39
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If the pictures on your Ebay listing show the serial #, and he sends you back a camera with a different serial #, then it should be easy to prove to Ebay that he's trying to scam you.
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Old 12-02-2016   #40
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Can I ask if the sale was through the "global shipping program"?
And also, why not give us the name of the scoundrel so that we can avoid selling to him? or a hint of the name?
Yeah, but he'll be gone, kill that user id, and create another.
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