M10 has destroyed the used M10 market
Old 11-25-2017   #1
Huss
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M10 has destroyed the used M10 market

There's still a waiting list at a lot of places for new M10s.
So why is it that almost new barely used M10s are not selling at $6000, $900 less than new?

It reflects the avg Leica customer - they want the latest NEW toy.
And great news for the rest of 'us' once they realize they can't tell any difference in their cat pics and have become bored, waiting for the M11 cuz THAT one will be the must have be all and end all..

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Old 11-25-2017   #2
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Leica is good company. It gives something else while next M is not ready yet. Like CL for now.
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Old 11-25-2017   #3
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avg Leica customer = avg Nikon customer = avg Canon customer = avg Sony customer = avg Fujifilm customer = ad infinitum.

Everyone prefers the new one, until the gap is large enough...the only difference between brands is the size of the gap.

(I don't know if used M10s are selling at $900 off, or not.)
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Old 11-25-2017   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splitimageview View Post
avg Leica customer = avg Nikon customer = avg Canon customer = avg Sony customer = avg Fujifilm customer = ad infinitum.

Everyone prefers the new one, until the gap is large enough...the only difference between brands is the size of the gap.

(I don't know if used M10s are selling at $900 off, or not.)
I agree, the gap is not large enough yet for an item that will depreciate rapidly anyway. $900 barely covers a service if it's out of alignment. In general, it needs to be closer to 20% for the masses to see value.
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Old 11-25-2017   #5
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A used M240 is a much better deal than a used M10. They are very similar in capabilities.
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Old 11-25-2017   #6
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Changing world - I believe Volvo and Porsche now offer subscription purchase for their cars ... and we know how Leica was keen to draw comparisons between the Leica M typ 240 and the Porsche 911.
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Old 11-26-2017   #7
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A used M240 is a much better deal than a used M10. They are very similar in capabilities.
Raid the M 10 is as different in low light to the M 262 as the M 262 is to the M-E. I have all three of those cameras.
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Old 11-26-2017   #8
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How different are M10 and M240 for low light, practically?
I hardly ever use ISO greater than 640, say.
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Old 11-26-2017   #9
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I live in that world both for my personal work and a lot of my pro work. Great to have the ability to shoot in low light or with really fast shutter speeds and small apertures for DoF. And that doesn't even address how immediate the M 10 is when shooting even at high ISO. No buffer lag.
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Old 11-26-2017   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
There's still a waiting list at a lot of places for new M10s.
So why is it that almost new barely used M10s are not selling at $6000, $900 less than new?
...
I would think that a mere 15% off for used is the reason. When you are spending close to $10,000 for a camera, a few hundred dollars more for a brand new one is not much of a stretch.
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Old 11-27-2017   #11
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Quote:
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How different are M10 and M240 for low light, practically?
I hardly ever use ISO greater than 640, say.
Based on empirical measurements of un-renderd raw data, the M10 is significantly better (~1 EV) than the M-240 in low light.[1] This difference also affects shadow region rendering when the dynamic range of a scene's light levels exceeds the sensor's maximum analog dynamic range.

I think a 1 EV difference is a practical advantage. Whether or not this is worth the price difference is another matter.

It turns out the M-246 monochrome's low light performance is about 1/2 stop better than the M10's and is only 1/3 stop below the Leica S.

Here's a comparison of the sensor noise levels vs. ISO.

It's interesting to note the M-246 monochrome's low-light advantage is only partially due to its noise level. It seems reasonable to assume monochrome's low-light performance is primarily due to an increase in signal level as there is no color-filter array.

[1] It is necessary to zoom the chart to see differences in data column for cameras with 24 x 36 mm sensors.
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Old 11-27-2017   #12
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I would think that a mere 15% off for used is the reason. When you are spending close to $10,000 for a camera, a few hundred dollars more for a brand new one is not much of a stretch.
People are paying over sticker for used Nikon D850s, because they are very scarce new.
The M10 is also very scarce new, but people are not paying 15% off for used ones.

I think that is explained by who uses these cameras, and shows that there is little interest in used M10s unless they are heavily discounted.
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Old 11-27-2017   #13
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Huss the M 10 is the finest 135 format digital camera I have shot with. I would imagine the masses that want all the bells and whistles and all the things folks like me don't want are not happy with the things that the M 10 doesn't have. And back in Feb they (M 10s) were getting more than sticker price. They have been out for what 11 months now? How long have the Nikons been out? Lets talk again in 9 moths or so.

Also I was just on eBay and almost every M 10 I saw listed had a buy it now of over 8K.
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Old 11-27-2017   #14
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Originally Posted by willie_901 View Post
Based on empirical measurements of un-renderd raw data, the M10 is significantly better (~1 EV) than the M-240 in low light.[1] This difference also affects shadow region rendering when the dynamic range of a scene's light levels exceeds the sensor's maximum analog dynamic range.

I think a 1 EV difference is a practical advantage. Whether or not this is worth the price difference is another matter.

It turns out the M-246 monochrome's low light performance is about 1/2 stop better than the M10's and is only 1/3 stop below the Leica S.

Here's a comparison of the sensor noise levels vs. ISO.

It's interesting to note the M-246 monochrome's low-light advantage is only partially due to its noise level. It seems reasonable to assume monochrome's low-light performance is primarily due to an increase in signal level as there is no color-filter array.

[1] It is necessary to zoom the chart to see differences in data column for cameras with 24 x 36 mm sensors.
It will be interesting to see how the M 10 MM will perform.
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Old 11-27-2017   #15
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The M10s I have seen for sale go for at least MSRP and over, both new and used. A number of people bought them with no intention of keeping them, and flippped them for a profit once they had them in hand. I handled one at the SF Leica store last February and was quite taken with it, though not so taken I dropped $10K with lens. I'm not expecting a glut of M10s on the used market any time soon.
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Old 11-27-2017   #16
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.... And that doesn't even address how immediate the M 10 is when shooting even at high ISO. No buffer lag.
No buffer lag?

One of two reasons I stopped using Leica for my club shooting was buffer lag (the other being restricted focal lengths for use in larger venues).

Though the M9/240 bodies are gone, might be smart of me to hold on to the lenses a bit longer for a try with an M10 at some point.
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Old 11-27-2017   #17
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No buffer lag?

One of two reasons I stopped using Leica for my club shooting was buffer lag (the other being restricted focal lengths for use in larger venues).

Though the M9/240 bodies are gone, might be smart of me to hold on to the lenses a bit longer for a try with an M10 at some point.
It's insanely responsive.
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Old 11-27-2017   #18
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It's insanely responsive.

What! More than an M3 with a roll of Tri-X?

sorry ... the devil made me say that
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Old 11-27-2017   #19
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It must have been the Analogue-Devil, Keith.
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Old 11-27-2017   #20
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What! More than an M3 with a roll of Tri-X?

sorry ... the devil made me say that
Ha ha. You all know I love film. This is the first digital M that has had M 3 like response. I like the fact I can go from 100 ISO to 6400 in the next frame and my 6400 ISO is really good. 13 X 19s are spectacular.
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Old 11-28-2017   #21
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Quote:
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It will be interesting to see how the M 10 MM will perform.
It would not surprise me if an MM M10 outperformed all other 24 X 36 mm sensor cameras.
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Old 11-28-2017   #22
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I thought I would NEVER separate from my original MM. Don't want video but the lag times on the original can be a bit frustrating at times. I had gotten used to it and could kinda work around it but having the M 10 has really spoiled me so if when Leica does release the M10 MM I might have to pick one up.
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Old 02-01-2018   #23
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talking about lag times the M10 has the slowest startup speed of any digital M's.
the fastest is actually the M9.
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Old 02-01-2018   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huss View Post
There's still a waiting list at a lot of places for new M10s.
So why is it that almost new barely used M10s are not selling at $6000, $900 less than new?

It reflects the avg Leica customer - they want the latest NEW toy.
And great news for the rest of 'us' once they realize they can't tell any difference in their cat pics and have become bored, waiting for the M11 cuz THAT one will be the must have be all and end all..

I suppose if you delight in making snarky comments about everyone else in the world, this might seem somewhat amusing.

Just remember that, except for exactly one insignificant exception, the entire universe is full of other people.

G
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Old 02-01-2018   #25
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Not me. I shoot a Nikon D5300, that I bought last May. Last year's model refurb'd = cheap good camera. In this case $380 shipped. With 24 megapixels and no AA filter, I'll hang on to this until it disintegrates. Just like my tidy whities.
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Old 02-01-2018   #26
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A used M240 is a much better deal than a used M10. They are very similar in capabilities.
Actually, when it comes to flexibility, the M240 is a superior system: better metadata recording, longer battery life, video, internal artificial horizon for wideangles, ability to connect a GPS or off-camera flash, and compatibility with all historic M eyepiece accessories.

Dante
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Old 03-20-2019   #27
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If average Leica users use new gear to take cat pictures, I guess that makes me below average. I even take pictures of cats with film and an "old" M8.

Now, if somebody could instruct me how to take good pictures of BLACK cats, I would feel less below average than I feel right now. I find them terribly difficult to photograph!
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Old 03-20-2019   #28
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If average Leica users use new gear to take cat pictures, I guess that makes me below average. I even take pictures of cats with film and an "old" M8.
!
Introduced in 2006, that's got to be 80 in cat years.
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Old 03-20-2019   #29
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Actually, when it comes to flexibility, the M240 is a superior system: better metadata recording, longer battery life, video, internal artificial horizon for wideangles, ability to connect a GPS or off-camera flash, and compatibility with all historic M eyepiece accessories.

Dante
Thanks for that. I use the internal artificial horizon a lot and thought it was ridiculous that Leica removed it from the M10. But added it back as a 'feature', for more money of course, on the M10-P.
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Old 03-20-2019   #30
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The cat doesn’t care.
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Old 03-22-2019   #31
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Aaand just watched some ebay M10 auctions. Going rate for M10 is $4500 in real auctions.
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Old 03-22-2019   #32
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a... = avg Fujifilm customer = ad infinitum.

Everyone prefers the new one, until the gap is large enough...the only difference between brands is the size of the gap.

...
My Fujifilm XT-2 is enough for me for now and a foreseeable future. Any additional money is for film equipment and/or lenses (possibly for the Fuji also).
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Old 04-25-2019   #33
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Got an M10, arrived here Monday. Coming from the MP240, I am pretty frustrated with the sound of the shutter, its more like a CLAC than a TCHUC, so I feel I'm disturbing more the environment; and with how the auto WB picks cooler and greenish tones instead of warmer and more magenta tones like the MP240. I assume there is a learning curve or, well, just getting used to it.

I can't bring myself to sell the MP240 now... darn.
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