Old 04-16-2019   #41
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Notre Dame is/was a beautiful site and a marvelous thing. I have been there many times and have enjoyed its magnificent architecture, grandeur, and the glorious associations of the sacred it holds.

But.

In the end, it is just a building. Like the Roman coliseum, the Parthenon, the Egyptian pyramids, and all the many other massive iconic creations of humankind over Time that are now just memories in our collective consciousness. Its cultural and religious associations are a part of human history, and a part of Time. And like everything else under the Sun, its Time passes and eventually ends.

Fire took this one, likely an accident from the effort to maintain it, it seems. Sad, but such is Life and Time. Not like the hundreds, if not thousands, of other cathedrals and monasteries, and altars and sacred places that have been intentionally and willfully destroyed by humankind that disagreed over their significance or sought to put down those who thought a thing was important to subjugate them. It's gotten off lightly.

Perhaps it will be rebuilt. Perhaps another iconic memory of it will be constructed on the site. Perhaps it will be razed and the site used for other things. In the end it doesn't matter much ... it is/was/will be there for all of us as part of our collective consciousness for as long as we choose to remember it. And the work of all those artisans, the events of all that history, are part of that memory as well. Grieve for the moment that has passed; honor them, honor those things, and move forward into Time.

That's the only choice we ever have.

G

... The favorite photo I made in the shadow of Notre Dame is this one:


"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; a time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."
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Old 04-16-2019   #42
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Then the entire thread should be deleted.

What is that building about?

And are you the forum owner or moderator?
Bill, regardless of the Institution’s issues, your comment was ill-timed and insensitive, considering the ashes haven’t even cooled. You come off as tone deaf and callous.

Maybe go back and post more jokes to the joke thread?
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Old 04-16-2019   #43
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Shame on you! This is not the time or place for political diatribes.

I am not religious - far from it in fact - however this building is one of the great cultural treasures of the world.

Hopefully extensive photographic documentation will aid in the restoration process, which will take years or decades.

Chris
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Old 04-16-2019   #44
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It will be re-built, not easy or fast or inexpensive, but very doable even in our age.

Notre Dame is too important to the French psyche and French history and French nationalistic pride and indeed to world history and culture for it not to be restored to its original glory, and it will be restored. The French are a proud and intelligent people that know their history and their greatness and will accept nothing else.

I am optimistic about this, just a temporary setback, that is all.
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Old 04-16-2019   #45
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I am honestly sorry to have offended anyone personally, that was not my intention, even if the wording could have been interpreted that way. I am sorry for using the word "philistinism", it is a word I would have applied to myself, had I looked at this event as some have. It is a word I have applied to myself in the past after apprehending the nature of things a bit more deeply. I should have kept it to myself.

My post was mainly an observation on why reactions to the fire have differed so much. It will be okay on the one hand, and no it won't, not really, on the other. Theseus' paradox. The post was also an oblique question about the nature and importance of beauty, though the relationship of beauty to the original creation of a thing is too much to go into here.
I understand the nature of impermanence as well as anyone, and the origin of Ecclesiastes, but that doesn't change anything, at least for me.
If my post was enough to trigger the idea that the entire thread needed to be deleted, then it obviously was not written in a way which adequately expressed my feelings. I was angling for bigger fish and it was the best I could do under the circumstances. At this point, I can't do any better.
Sorry.
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Old 04-16-2019   #46
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Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
I am honestly sorry to have offended anyone personally, that was not my intention, even if the wording could have been interpreted that way. I am sorry for using the word "philistinism", it is a word I would have applied to myself, had I looked at this event as some have. It is a word I have applied to myself in the past after apprehending the nature of things a bit more deeply. I should have kept it to myself.

My post was mainly an observation on why reactions to the fire have differed so much. It will be okay on the one hand, and no it won't, not really, on the other. Theseus' paradox. The post was also an oblique question about the nature and importance of beauty, though the relationship of beauty to the original creation of a thing is too much to go into here.
I understand the nature of impermanence as well as anyone, and the origin of Ecclesiastes, but that doesn't change anything, at least for me.
If my post was enough to trigger the idea that the entire thread needed to be deleted, then it obviously was not written in a way which adequately expressed my feelings. I was angling for bigger fish and it was the best I could do under the circumstances. At this point, I can't do any better.
Sorry.
I don't think this thread needs to be deleted.

There is nothing offensive to anyone here, just varying opinions and different takes on the matter, that is a healthy thing on a public forum.
No one is being insulted and outraged, even die-hard social justice warriors looking for something to do will agree on this, just read the thread, it is mostly very civil and very polite and very good.

Are we that namby-pamby these days ?

What have we become .
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Old 04-16-2019   #47
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@Larry Cloetta, those who took offense at your post, perhaps ought to look for thicker skin. IMHO, you have nothing to apologize for.

@xayraa33, indeed so, as to 'namby-pamby' Good grief!! This thread for me has been a remarkable tour through the thinking of obviously very bright folks, each of whom is grappling (or not) with the impact of the destruction of Notre Dame.

IMHO, I offer unapologetically, that the metaphor as to the "Church" is entirely appropriate..... would that $300 million be expended on the clean-up of the corruption in "Church as Body." In its rawest sense, it is a remarkable level of hypocrisy that the underpinnings of the Church as Body remain as is, all the while extolling the "rebuilding of the the Church."
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Old 04-16-2019   #48
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Originally Posted by xayraa33 View Post
I don't think this thread needs to be deleted.

I agree and I`m Catholic.
I`m not offended although I did wonder why the remark was thrown into a lovely /sad thread about the loss of such beautiful art.
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Old 04-16-2019   #49
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Originally Posted by Bill Clark View Post
Then the entire thread should be deleted.

What is that building about?

And are you the forum owner or moderator?

90% of the posts did not talk about religion but about the beautiful building that Notre Dame is.

The building is a cathedral, do you think the architects and workers doing the restoration were discussing religion before planning their works? can't you separate a building from your opinions on the religion it represents? I can, and it is very easy.
I'm not the forum owner nor moderator but I have respect for this forum and specially for the thread about this beautiful building that will be closed because someone trolls it with religion.
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Old 04-16-2019   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post

My post was mainly an observation on why reactions to the fire have differed so much.



I have no idea what you are seeing. From my view, all across the world reactions have been almost in unison. Extreme sadness that such a great building has been lost. That such beautiful artwork that has stood the test of centuries has burned before our eyes.


I have seen virtually no deviation from thoughts like these whatsoever.


It is an unspeakable tragedy. Yes, the cathedral will be rebuilt, but it will never, ever be the same.
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Old 04-16-2019   #51
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It’s time for me to quit posting here on this forum.

Bye.
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Old 04-16-2019   #52
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I imagine that every square cm of that church was well documented so those who do the rebuilding will have more than just memories to work with.
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Old 04-16-2019   #53
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Originally Posted by frank-grumman View Post
@Larry Cloetta, those who took offense at your post, perhaps ought to look for thicker skin. IMHO, you have nothing to apologize for.

@xayraa33, indeed so, as to 'namby-pamby' Good grief!! This thread for me has been a remarkable tour through the thinking of obviously very bright folks, each of whom is grappling (or not) with the impact of the destruction of Notre Dame.

IMHO, I offer unapologetically, that the metaphor as to the "Church" is entirely appropriate..... would that $300 million be expended on the clean-up of the corruption in "Church as Body." In its rawest sense, it is a remarkable level of hypocrisy that the underpinnings of the Church as Body remain as is, all the while extolling the "rebuilding of the the Church."

It is just another tragic chapter in our material world.

No more tragic than wars and untimely death or the Frisco earthquake and fire of 1906 or the sacking and destruction of the second temple by Titus in 70 AD or the burning of the library of Alexandria in 48 BC and 272 AD under Aurelian or even the destruction of the library of Baghdad by the Mongols.

This is the human condition, nasty stuff happens, by hook or by crook or by bad luck and by the law of chaos and then the usual order out of chaos.

I would not worry too much about the " Body of the Church" as it controls its destiny and the many sides you imagine are opposed to it, but are not opposed to it in actuality, as it secretly controls them through various means, just more divide and conquer play acting.

Like in a stage show for public consumption, good, bad, horrific, saint, sinner and indifferent it is all part of the script it has written for its self. And its death has been falsely announced many times throughout history, but all for nought, as it is always in control behind the curtain, like the Wizard of OZ.
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Old 04-16-2019   #54
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Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
All the facile happy talk about the cathedral being “rebuilt”

(...)

Some will care, some will not. It was ever thus.
Most of the stone structure survived. The stained glass survived. At one time there were flames inside the North tower, the firemen's water jets looked minuscule and powerless, and I feared the worst. Yet the fire was eventually contained.

Well, I suppose this kind of attitude qualifies me as "don't care", not part of the Caring Few.
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Old 04-16-2019   #55
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"The Rosace Nord has survived. The South and West windows were very extensively restored in the 18th and 19th century, but the North Rose Window has stood basically unchanged for 800 years, the glass is the 13th century original".
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Old 04-16-2019   #56
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Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
I imagine that every square cm of that church was well documented so those who do the rebuilding will have more than just memories to work with.
Wonderfully, it had recently been 3D mapped. With everything else as well this should be one to avoid reinterpretations!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevorn...of-notre-dame/
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Old 04-16-2019   #57
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Of course it will be rebuilt (see fire at York Cathedral and earlier reconstruction in Europe after two World Wars). The rebuilding will be an opportunity to train new artisans in old skills that are in danger of being lost. Skills that many of us would appreciate. It will take many years and much money. It can be done, in the UK many cathedrals have permanent teams of masons etc and it is the same in France.

The rebuilding itself should be seen as part of our race's endeavour and something, in itself, to be proud of.
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Old 04-16-2019   #58
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At least this was an accident, and not an act of Terror.
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Old 04-16-2019   #59
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Originally Posted by Dralowid View Post
Of course it will be rebuilt (see fire at York Cathedral and earlier reconstruction in Europe after two World Wars). The rebuilding will be an opportunity to train new artisans in old skills that are in danger of being lost. Skills that many of us would appreciate. It will take many years and much money. It can be done, in the UK many cathedrals have permanent teams of masons etc and it is the same in France.

The rebuilding itself should be seen as part of our race's endeavour and something, in itself, to be proud of.
Right on !

I agree 100%

"The rebuilding will be an opportunity to train new artisans in old skills that are in danger of being lost."

A wonderful art and occupation, although physically demanding even in modern times but rewarding as a craft.

My grandfather and his father , (my great grand father) were both operative master stone masons that specialised in working in granite and ashlar and as a child I was always fascinated by the specialised tools of their craft and with my grandfather's artistic skill with working and carving very hard stone, it looked like second nature to him. Too bad that he died when I was 8 years old, he was one of the nicest and one of the most intelligent men I ever met, and he had no university education.
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Old 04-16-2019   #60
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I have no idea what you are seeing. From my view, all across the world reactions have been almost in unison. Extreme sadness that such a great building has been lost. That such beautiful artwork that has stood the test of centuries has burned before our eyes.


I have seen virtually no deviation from thoughts like these whatsoever.


It is an unspeakable tragedy. Yes, the cathedral will be rebuilt, but it will never, ever be the same.
What I "was seeing" was the "it's just a building" comments. I'm not denigrating that, I just don't understand it, even though I understand 'sic transit gloria mundi' perfectly well. That is the differing reactions I was referring to, although there have been internet photos posted of the burning with laughing emoji's attached. Not going to go there.

Pragmatism is a philosophy of life, as is Epicureanism. Neither of which I can take seriously, though I understand the attraction. Some do.
Life goes on. Tomorrow is another day. I get that. On the other hand I also sense an occasional whiff of "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"
"A time to be born, and a time to die;" Yes, yes, true enough, but is that all there is to it?
"Forget it, Jake, it's Chinatown." ?

Can a 21st century simulacrum of a 12th century thing, still retain the original gestalt, the original meaning, the original beauty? That's what I was going on about. For me, no, since I am not a pragmatist, and, that's the question I was ineffectively raising in this "arts" forum, a forum which might be tangentially concerned with the nature of Beauty, and facades.
The loss bothers me, more than it bothers others, it's the 'why' of that, I was attempting to explore. Is this permanent "loss" something I am able to see that others don't, or something I only imagine because I'm insufficiently aware of life's big picture mysteries? People will differ on that, not necessarily in even numbers.

Words are obviously failing me, so please disregard if none of this rings true. I don't mind, and I understand that.
Too emotional, not enough math on my part, maybe that's all it is. Yet the feeling persists.
Too artsy fartsy? Yeah, probably, but it's an honest artsy fartsy.
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Old 04-16-2019   #61
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Words aren`t failing you Larry …. very honest ,thoughtful post .
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Old 04-16-2019   #62
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Amongst all this spare a thought for the people rebuilding the Charles Rennie Macintosh building in Glasgow, they had nearly finished when it burnt again. They appear resolute but it must be tough.

One of them was on the BBC offering newly developed highly specialised scanning techniques to help in the rebuilding of the cathedral. In simplest terms they run scans the whole time so that when bits continue to fall off they know where they have come from.

Sounds simple but I bet it ain't.
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Old 04-16-2019   #63
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Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
What I "was seeing" was the "it's just a building" comments.

People who have such a reaction like that have an extraordinarily limited mind. Notre Dame was an incredible work of art, engineering, and vision.


I would be very very sad to be unable to appreciate the majestic accomplishment and now loss of this great building.
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Old 04-16-2019   #64
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Not religious. Not at all. But, I greatly mourn the loss of all things beautiful and historic, including religious sites. Notre Dame has had the same checkered history as any other "landmark" of our (human) existence. That history, all of it, is so important to me. I have the same strong feelings for nearly all old and amazing things - stone circles, mosques in Istanbul, cliff dwellings, Aztec pyriamids, monastaries in eastern Europe, and even the old railroad depot in my town. I know its all in my head, but I can feel the presence of history when in these places.

Perhaps I am truly a luddite. I love all things old for some odd reason. Actually, I know why... physical artifacts of the long history of us. That includes my old Barnack Leicas -- I just love to imagine where my favorite IIIa has been, who held and used it, and what it has survived. I know it was sold in Europe (likely Germany) in 1936, and it had to have survived the war somehow...then found its way to the U.S. and only lately surface from an attic or closet to meet me.

I'm very sad about Notre Dame. Not easily articulated, but I am sad.
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Old 04-16-2019   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Cloetta View Post
...
"A time to be born, and a time to die;" Yes, yes, true enough, but is that all there is to it?
...
Ultimately, yes. "Life itself" is the only fit answer to "What is the meaning of Life?" If that's not good enough, well, make up whatever feels more satisfying to you. Anything you can dream up is all a subset of Life itself. The only thing greater than Life is Time ... because without Time, Life cannot exist.

I am honored to have had the opportunity to walk the floors and halls of Notre Dame. I grieve its passing, although I accept that it is inevitable. That it happened in my Time is just a chance happening, like so many many others.

G
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Old 04-16-2019   #66
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1. Thanks Larry.
2. Bil: don't leave the forum.

For the restoration there has indeed been a very detailed photographic record made. Restoration architecture is a wonderful art and science. Anything 800 years old needs work periodically. This one will need quite a lot now. Sadly Europe is still also the centre of the world when it comes to such work.
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Old 04-16-2019   #67
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People who have such a reaction like that have an extraordinarily limited mind. Notre Dame was an incredible work of art, engineering, and vision.


I would be very very sad to be unable to appreciate the majestic accomplishment and now loss of this great building.
It still is an incredible work of art. It’s not been lost, rather, badly damaged. Studying its rebuilding and repair will be fascinating.
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Old 04-16-2019   #68
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Unfortunately accidents happen. I feel sad for the injured fireman. We should all thanks all the firemen who risked their life to save what was possible to save.

In 1996 in Venice the Theater La Fenice burnt (it took fire during restoration works, sounds familiar) and it was rebuilt where and how it was. Not easy, not cheap, but it can be done.

We have different opinions in this thread. I think it's always interesting to hear and listen to different opinions, even the ones we do not agree with. It's the strength of a forum, just my opinion...

I hope Bill does not leave the forum. And yes, Notre Dame was, is still a great work of art.

robert

PS: I am catholic and do not feel offended by any comment here...
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Old 04-16-2019   #69
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We should not insist on our own opinions and views and beliefs when it comes to sharing a forum or thread like this one here.

I recall a specific episode of TED.com in which a brilliant man was showing some software that let him "blend together" a huge number of images (maybe they were 1,000,000) to obtain one overall image. Which image was it of? Of course, it was photos taken by tourists of Notre Dame.

I found it! https://www.ted.com/talks/blaise_agu...mos_photosynth
Blaise Aguera y Arcas leads a dazzling demo of Photosynth, software that could transform the way we look at digital images. Using still photos culled from the Web, Photosynth builds breathtaking dreamscapes and lets us navigate them.
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Old 04-16-2019   #70
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I visited Notre Dame in 2005 and photographed this roof detail. Note that the news reported that the copper statues on the spire had been removed prior to the fire because of restoration work.

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Old 04-16-2019   #71
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In 1977 I was sorry I made an accidental double-exposure in Notre Dame when I reached the end of my roll of Kodachrome 64. Now I'm glad I have that photo for a memory. I am sure the Parisians and Parisiennes and all of France will be very sad and I hope the repair can be made as soon and as good as possible.

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Old 04-16-2019   #72
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I'd forgotten that I made this exposure. I made a trip t London and took the Chunnel to Paris in 2008. I always try at least to see Notre Dame when I go to Paris so I know was in Paris.



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Old 04-16-2019   #73
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When I saw Notre-Dame burning on CNN I was a bit sad, but it is just a building in the end. The hyperbole about it is almost out of control. I was thinking, the building is made of stone, so like, it ain't gonna burn. I used to live in Paris, and I wasn't that put off by the fire. Kinda sad, but the building has been rebuilt many times. It isn't all 800 years old. In fact it has been semi derelict for a lot of that time, but you know, facts are inconvenient sometimes. In the end it will be rebuilt, perhaps even better than it was. No one died. I imagine all of the art was/will be saved. No windows were ruined from what I have seen. Kinda feel sorry for some of those gargoyles though. I mean, it musta been pretty toasty up there...

There are laws in France limiting the government from giving money to religious institutions and I can't imagine the Vatican not owning that property. Where that 700 million goes should be interesting although we will never find out.
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Old 04-16-2019   #74
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Originally Posted by PRJ View Post
When I saw Notre-Dame burning on CNN I was a bit sad, but it is just a building in the end. The hyperbole about it is almost out of control. I was thinking, the building is made of stone, so like, it ain't gonna burn. I used to live in Paris, and I wasn't that put off by the fire. Kinda sad, but the building has been rebuilt many times. It isn't all 800 years old. In fact it has been semi derelict for a lot of that time, but you know, facts are inconvenient sometimes. In the end it will be rebuilt, perhaps even better than it was. No one died. I imagine all of the art was/will be saved. No windows were ruined from what I have seen. Kinda feel sorry for some of those gargoyles though. I mean, it musta been pretty toasty up there...

There are laws in France limiting the government from giving money to religious institutions and I can't imagine the Vatican not owning that property. Where that 700 million goes should be interesting although we will never find out.

What I learned today is that the French government actually owns the cathedral. But methinks Mssr Macron is a little off in his five year rebuilding estimate/declaration. All that heat surely will have caused damage to the stone walls, as it is built of locally sourced limestone (some from the very island it sits on), and would be crumbly.


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Old 04-17-2019   #75
PRJ
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Originally Posted by farlymac View Post
What I learned today is that the French government actually owns the cathedral..........


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Old 04-17-2019   #76
Alberti
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A bridge of many sighs



. . about memories. Likewise about some posts
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Old 04-17-2019   #77
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700 million Euros donated so far by rich benefactors to restore a beautiful building full of riches and history.

...or help the poor and destitute of France and beyond.

What a dilemma. Perhaps we should ask, “what would Jesus do?” ;-)
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Old 04-17-2019   #78
nickthetasmaniac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PRJ View Post
I was thinking, the building is made of stone, so like, it ain't gonna burn.
A great deal of the upper structure of Notre Dame is built from oak, not stone, and oak burns very well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRJ View Post
Kinda sad, but the building has been rebuilt many times. It isn't all 800 years old. In fact it has been semi derelict for a lot of that time, but you know, facts are inconvenient sometimes. In the end it will be rebuilt, perhaps even better than it was.
It's unlikely that France (or the rest of Europe) has any oak forests left that are old enough to supply enough timber for a rebuild. If there are any such forests, it's likely that they are covered by some kind of conservation covenant and cannot be harvested anyway.
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From an '08 visit
Old 04-17-2019   #79
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From an '08 visit

Alberti,
Seeing your lovely pic above, I went back and found this one is taken just further "downstream"




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Old 04-17-2019   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FujiLove View Post
700 million Euros donated so far by rich benefactors to restore a beautiful building full of riches and history.

...or help the poor and destitute of France and beyond.

What a dilemma. Perhaps we should ask, “what would Jesus do?” ;-)
No offence meant but I wonder what makes you think the rich may not already be donating to the poor. It's a time honored institution to do this in many countries. I don't see it as a particular dilemma myself.

There are about 5 billion (at last count) poor people in the world. The 700 million euros, or about what, 1 billion US dollars would be about 20 cents each - one time payment. That's not how you solve world poverty. Mighty thin pickins. Poverty is solved by changing cultures that allow poverty, eliminating ugly backward and repressive systems of government and corruption that feed off it, by trade, by jobs that trade creates, by education and so on. It's not so easy when stated like this but in this instance I guess I would rather not ask Jesus but instead ask an economist with experience in international development.
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