Old 01-17-2019   #41
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I see some dust problems above.
er, more like land erosion problems
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Old 01-17-2019   #42
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For this project, camera-scan of slides, choosing a light source to replace the 300w projector bulb.

The choice is basically between halogen and LED. Specifically, I have these options, all MR16:
- Solux 4700K halogen (incandescent) bulb.
- Bulbrite 3000K halogen bulb
- LED MR16 bulb, claiming 90+ CRI.

Anyone else have comparisons? I'm not seeing much of a difference.
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Old 01-18-2019   #43
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Here are tests of the bulbs, shooting a Color Checker. Sony camera. Lightroom, Profile: Camera Neutral. (Other profiles give more saturation and punch).
- Left is the LED, claiming 90+ CRI
- Right is the Solux 4700K halogen bulb, by definition, 100 CRI

LR eyedropper says the color temps are 3100K and 4650K, about as expected.

Both of these look good. I thought I would prefer the Solux, but these are close enough, I'm going to go with the LED to keep down the heat, and because the beam on the Solux is too narrow ("narrow flood" 24). The Carousel projector needs a bulb with wider throw.

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Old 01-19-2019   #44
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wow impressive results.

I can't compare it to the color checker but from the image I'd rather go with the LED source. The blues and the orange seem to be more saturated and more to my liking.
Or is this rather due to the different exposure?

in either way it might be good to compare some "real" slides with both light sources : )
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Old 01-19-2019   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by predicolous View Post
wow impressive results.

I can't compare it to the color checker but from the image I'd rather go with the LED source. The blues and the orange seem to be more saturated and more to my liking.
Or is this rather due to the different exposure?

in either way it might be good to compare some "real" slides with both light sources : )
First, the exposures were quite close. Only minor LR adjustments to Exp and Contrast.

I have the same questions. In my opinion, Kodak and photo finishers decided that consumers wanted more saturated and punchy colors. I found I was immediately inclined to prefer that in my test shots.

Note that this is with "Camera Neutral," for both bulbs. If you take most any of the other choices in LR, including the default "Adobe Color," you'll get even more sat & punchy.

My net of all this is that good LED bulbs are fine for color photography and should be fine for my Carousel-slide-scanner hack.

But, if you are going to try this at home, the easier route will be to find a 20w or 35w MR16 GU5.3 120v bulb that plugs right into the unmodified projector. These 120v bulbs aren't carried at your local store, but they are available.

More soon.
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Old 01-19-2019   #46
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We (still) have an Ektagraphic slide projector in our AV closet. I might be tempted to try something like this, but everything I do currently is loose film, whether negative or reversal.
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Old 01-19-2019   #47
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What a stellar idea . Have a couple of projectors and crappy weather here , I might have a new project ! Thanks . Peter
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Old 01-20-2019   #48
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Making good progress. Started seeing very ugly and unusual artifact in the middle of some slides.

Remember, I've removed the 250w bulb and replaced with a 50w equiv LED, so the slide lighting is two stops lower. Ugly artifact appears on under-exposed slides, bright band across any dark area in the middle.

The artifact is the projector's focusing lamp which shines a glancing blow across the face of the slide. Disabling the lamp cures the problem. Artifact is probably present on any slide, but far less noticeable in properly exposed slides.

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Old 01-23-2019   #49
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I think my rig is now ready for production. Here's a sample, a Kodachrome from 1977, in the Grand Teton National Park. Camera-scan of my slide in my modified projector, shot with 24MPx Nikon D7200 and 105mm f/2.8 Micro-Nikkor. This is the straight out of camera jpg, except for reduced resolution.

From the RAW, I can tune this further, recover some shadow detail on the left and perhaps improve the clouds. I compose a bit wide, then crop in post. No HDR on this one, but I do find that some slides benefit from HDR. Matrix metering does a good job in this application.

Here's the example, straight out of camera.

[ EDIT: I had previously posted the full size file, and you'll see comments on that below. But, something was wrong; the resolution was flawed, more to come later. ]

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Last edited by ColSebastianMoran : 01-25-2019 at 18:17. Reason: Remove full-res file.
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Old 01-23-2019   #50
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Summary and how-to.

Basic:
- Find a projector. Check that "advance" works. This is the usual failing of Carousels.
- Remove the lens
- Add a diffuser to the light path. Careful, it can get hot in there! I used white plastic about 1mm thick, cover of a Sterilite storage container. See #37 above for positioning of diffuser.
- Disable the focus bulb (shines glancing light across the slide) by opening the twist-on electrical connector or cutting the wire. Tape the wire to avoid electrical contact with anything.
- Point your camera into the lens hole and shoot. It's very bright, 1/1000th at f/8.
- Use a 100mm macro lens on a crop body. The Carousel projector positions slides accurately for focus, left-right positioning varies just a bit. I prefer manual focus, but YMMV.
- Matrix metering works well. Some slides will benefit from bracketing & HDR.

Better -- Substitute a lower wattage bulb:
- You can find 50w 120v MR16 with GU5.3 base online. You want a broad flood, not narrow. Might have to thin the pins to make bulb fit in ceramic socket.
- Or, switch to 12v where you have both halogen and LED options. Rig 12v power to the bulb. 50w equivalent is about right. I have a CRI 95 LED wide flood brand name SORAA with "Vivid Light".

Anything else? I'm enjoying slides that I haven't looked at in 20 years!
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Last edited by ColSebastianMoran : 04-06-2019 at 09:15. Reason: Added updates 4/5/2019
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Old 01-23-2019   #51
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One more. Again, Tetons, 1977 Kodachrome, Teton range from Jackson Lake Lodge. Some adjustments in LR. Reduced to screen resolution.

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Old 01-23-2019   #52
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Great detail, Colonel. Good results and pictures well worth digitising.
Thank you very much for sharing.
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Old 01-23-2019   #53
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it's so great to see how a simple idea can unfold and lead to amazing results.
Congratulations! I'm deeply impressed with the results

do you plan to digitize your whole slide archive with this set-up?
What about the "automatic" mode with both timer on the Carousel and the camera?
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Old 01-23-2019   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
Here's a sample, a Kodachrome from 1977, in the Grand Teton National Park. Camera-scan of my slide in my modified projector, shot with 24MPx Nikon D7200 and 105mm f/2.8 Micro-Nikkor. This is the straight out of camera jpg.
I have to admit that the scan looks impressive! At least on the monitor here.

Have you tried printing any of your projector scans at 8x10 or larger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
Here's the example in full resolution, straight out of camera. If you view at 100%, you'll see that there isn't 24MPx of real data in the image; probably more like 6-10MPx.
However, viewing it full res, on this monitor at least, I don't see the detail of the dye clouds clearly.

When I scan a Kodachrome in full res on the admittedly-13-going-on-14 year old KM SD IV and inspect the .tif or the raw file closely I can clearly see the dye clouds ("apparent grain") in there in more or less crisp detail.

Multiplying things out, the scans I get are 15 million pixels or so.

However, one comparison I've made is to compare the scans I've done on slides and negatives to the shots from a digital camera of about the same resolution, which I happen to have, the Fuji HS30. Fuji claims 16 megapixels on that one.

In looking at prints of Kodachrome scans and HS30 images, at 8x10 they are very close. At 8.5x11, they still appear close, however I think the prints of the Kodachrome scans are a bit cleaner and show just a wee bit more information/detail.

When looking at larger, as in 13x19 prints, the largest my printer will do, the Kodachrome scans are clearly superior to those from the HS30. I admit that both need to be run through Neat Image to produce a 13x19 that will stand up to close viewing, and not all images from scans or from the HS30 will produce such a print.

My conclusion is that the Kodachrome scans are equivalent to at least a 10 megapixel digital image, probably more, as in 12-13 or so.

The reason I'm interested in your project is, as I (think I) said, that I know the film scanner I have is living on borrowed time. Eventually, it will die, or my "Media PC" will die and I will not be able to replace it with one that will drive the scanner. I'm thinking of going with some kind of "scanning" with a DSLR (or in my case, a mirrorless, the newer Fuji, the X-T20, which Fuji claims to be 24.{mumble} megapixels).

If I want to splurge, I may go with the "Toaster", except that's very expensive. The people at the Film Toaster booth at Photo Plus assured me that yes, with a good quality camera and lens, it will indeed resolve the real or apparent grain quite easily. I think that the point at which a "scan" clearly resolves the grain or dye clouds is the point at which we can say that all of the available information in the negative or slide has been captured.
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Old 01-23-2019   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by predicolous View Post
... do you plan to digitize your whole slide archive with this set-up?
What about the "automatic" mode with both timer on the Carousel and the camera?
Yes, my whole archive. Starting with good images I've previous selected years ago.

No, to automatic. Here's why:
- I look at each image, place the AF focus point.
- Click with auto-exposure
- Check the histogram
- If needed, revise exposure or shoot a bracket different exposures.

Also, I am composing to get the full 35mm image plus a little. If a slide in the carousel is vertical, not horizontal, I will rotate it.

So, no to automatic.
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Old 01-23-2019   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmr View Post
However, viewing it full res, on this monitor at least, I don't see the detail of the dye clouds clearly...
Thank you for this comment. I don't see them either. [ UPDATE: 3/20/2019 @dmr is right, see updates below. ]

I'll investigate. Quick google says the dye clouds are 1.25 to 4 microns. I highly doubt I can resolve these in my 24MPx crop sensor body (pixel pitch 3.9 microns and my shots are at magnification 1:1.5). And, from the measurements at CoinImaging.com, it appears that my 105mm lens will only resolve details at about 8 microns (at this magnification).

Hard to decide how much detail to try to include in these camera scans. I have been guessing that 35mm chromes would deliver up to 10MPx, and I have 20+ in these camera-scans. I might try greater magnification and stitch to see if there is more.

Thanks for the question. Will do some more with this.
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Old 01-23-2019   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
Thank you for this comment. I don't see them either.
Here is an example of what I am talking about. This is a crop of a very typical film scan, done at full res, which according to TFM is 3200 dpi.

Note that the grain/dye cloud/whatever is very obvious.

I found out the hard way that scanning some films at a lower res can cause "aliasing" of the grain/whatever and makes it appear far more prominent than what it should be.

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Old 01-23-2019   #58
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Thanks for the example. Much appreciated.
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Old 01-23-2019   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColSebastianMoran View Post
Thank you for this comment. I don't see them either.

I'll investigate. Quick google says the dye clouds are 1.25 to 4 microns. I highly doubt I can resolve these in my 24MPx crop sensor body (pixel pitch 3.9 microns and my shots are at magnification 1:1.5). And, from the measurements at CoinImaging.com, it appears that my 105mm lens will only resolve details at about 8 microns (at this magnification).

Hard to decide how much detail to try to include in these camera scans. I have been guessing that 35mm chromes would deliver up to 10MPx, and I have 20+ in these camera-scans. I might try greater magnification and stitch to see if there is more.

Thanks for the question. Will do some more with this.
I guess, when talking about megapixels we need to take the Bayer Array of the camera‘s Sensor into account.
This source suggests / calculates, that for a 10 MP line scan you would need 40MP digital camera resolution to get the same amount of detail in the red and blue channels.
But if I’m honest ... that’s beyond my knowledge (at the moment)haha
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Old 01-25-2019   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmr View Post
However, viewing it full res, on this monitor at least, I don't see the detail of the dye clouds clearly.
I now find that that capture wasn't optimal sharpness. Don't know why yet, but further exploration (different lens & body) shows I can get a lot more image detail out of that slide.
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Old 01-30-2019   #61
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Update... The Carousel projector has a fan and another motor running continuously. Vibration is an issue, never noticed while projecting, but can see it in trying for the best Camera-scans. I'm re-thinking about the bulb wattage; the projector bulb will result is high shutter speeds. And, also thinking about clamping down everything (projector and camera) to eliminate more vibration sources. More to come, but it'll be a while.
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Old 03-19-2019   #62
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Back at it. There's a resolution loss in my rig.

Pretty sure it's vibration from the fan. Using an 8-watt LED, I think I can just turn the fan off (cut the wire). But, I still want faster shutter speeds, was exposing at 1/10. So, I changed the diffuser, first to a single sheet of drafting mylar.

Also, removed the "heat absorbing glass." This glass take about two stops and shifts color.

Shutter speeds now 1/500 at f/5.6 ISO 100. This mylar diffuser seemed to be somewhat visible in my image files. So, I switched to a reflective diffuser. A single sheet of good white paper across the mirror. (Photo coming.)

Still 1/125 to 1/250 and my resolution tests exactly equal to my alternative very solid rig with the Nikon bellows and slide copier (PB-4 and PB-5).

Testing:
- Check focusing; ten tries, all same good resolution.
- And, the resolution is equal to what I get with the Nikon bellows rig.
- With the fan on, I lose just a bit of resolution, so I will cut the wire.

So, I think I'm now ready for production at 24MPx. I think this will be all I need for most of my chromes.
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Old 03-23-2019   #63
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More about resolution.

In my version 1, with 105mm f/2.8 Micro Nikkor AF, using auto-focus, with version 1 diffuser, I was shooting at 1/10 or so. With my USAF 1951 test slide, I measure that this was resolving 30 cycles/mm. And, we saw that it didn't resolve the dye clouds.

With version 2, described above, I'm shooting at 1/125 to 1/250 and I'm using the APO Rodagon D 1:1 copy lens, Nikon PB4 bellows on a tripod, and a full-frame Sony A7. Measuring the test slide, I now get 64 to 72 cycles/mm, I suspect limited by my sensor pitch. I measure the same in my Carousel projector and with an alternate rock-steady rig.

What's the source of the difference? Lens? Vibration causing blur at longer shutter speeds? A bit hard to tell, but I suspect the lens. I doubt that the Nikkor at 1:1.4 on AF is as good as the Rodagon D at 1:1 carefully focused.
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Old 03-23-2019   #64
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Here's a comparison at 2:1 in Lightroom.
- LEFT: Rodagon D, Sony A7, 1/200th, ISO 100, new diffuser
- RIGHT: 105mm Micro Nikkor, D7200, 1/10th, ISO 100, old plastic diffuser

Note difference in sky (dye clouds) and building (windows resolved).

A couple of conclusions:
- 24MPx resolves enough of the dye clouds; I doubt additional pixels would add photographic info for this film (Kodachrome 64).
- Post processing needed. Blur the sky? This combination resolves a lot more dirt and fine fibers. Clean slides before camera-scan?
- Carousel projector scan is very fast. 140 slides in under ten minutes.
- Might be grain aliasing in the left image??

Thanks, @dmr, for pushing me to look more closely at resolution.

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Old 03-23-2019   #65
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Another comparison, here is a 2:1 screen shot of the sky in the Tetons image, upper right in full image:
- LEFT: Rodagon D, carefully focused, as in previous item
- RIGHT: 105mm Micro Nikkor AF

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Old 03-23-2019   #66
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And here's the Tetons image from the new Carousel rig. I have blurred the sky, so don't look for dye clouds here. Kodachrome 64, Nikon gear, hand-held. I'm sure this will make a good print. Screen resolution here:



And, here's a link to the full 24MPx image (12 MB).

I'm satisfied that I can make good camera-scans of chromes with this rig.
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Old 03-23-2019   #67
predicolous
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This is awesome! The new results really outperform the older lens.
Love the speed of digitizing you mentioned!!!
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Old 03-23-2019   #68
ColSebastianMoran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by predicolous View Post
This is awesome! The new results really outperform the older lens.
Love the speed of digitizing you mentioned!!!
Yes, the throughput is fabulous. Then, there's a bit of post...

Curious about the 105 Nikkor, it's supposed to be better.
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In Classifieds Now: Nikon DX Fisheye, photos in this Flickr album.
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Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
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Old 03-24-2019   #69
ColSebastianMoran
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Here is the inside of the rig, showing the position of the reflector, the removed heat-absorbing glass, and the condensor (left in place):



Bulb is a SORAA 3000K 95CRI "Vivid Light" MR-16 12v bulb. Bulb options are changing fast; I expect to switch to 4000K at next iteration.
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In Classifieds Now: Nikon DX Fisheye, photos in this Flickr album.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
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Old 04-02-2019   #70
ColSebastianMoran
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More learning:
- With higher resolution rig, easy to get grainy, gritty images. Solution: turn-down or turn-off capture sharpening in LR, increase NR, and start at Clarity=0.
- Slides kept in a carousel tray and it's cardboard storage box for 20 years have myriad dust and microscopic fibers; clean first or do a lot of spotting in post. I'm suspicious that cardboard mounts are worse than plastic.
- Focus once, shoot many slides, the projector positions slides accurately for focus.
- However, slides may fall slightly differently left-right. Either move in a bit and lose edges of all slides, or include edges and crop in post.
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In Classifieds Now: Nikon DX Fisheye, photos in this Flickr album.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
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Old 04-09-2019   #71
ColSebastianMoran
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Back to the Teton's image from #66 above.

I just had it printed at 20x30" at Costco, and I'm very happy with the print.

This print from camera scan is far better than any I ever got from mid-level labs back in the day.

Folowing cues from Bruce Fraser:
- Camera Scan with 24MPx Sony A7, no capture sharpening
- Noise reduction first
- Then Focus Magic (Richardson-Lucy deconvolution), masked to non-sky
- Gaussian Blur in sky
- Further adjustments in LR
- Output sharpening at LR defaults

The final
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Col. Sebastian Moran, ret. (not really)

In Classifieds Now: Nikon DX Fisheye, photos in this Flickr album.
Use this link to leave feedback for me.

Named "Best heavy-game shooter in the Eastern Empire." Clubs: Anglo-Indian, Tankerville, and Bagatelle Card Club.
Sony E/FE, Nikon dSLR, and iPhone digital. Misc film.
Birds, portraits, events, family. Mindfulness, reflection, creativity, and stance.
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